I'm sick of the rabid Islamophobia on these boards...

[guanophore]

Please, tell me another fairy tale about Muhammad ( Gods’ curse and approbation eternally be upon him GCAAEBUH) :tsktsk:

I think it is not wise to curse anyone. Jesus teaches us to bless our enemies, and pray for them, but do not curse them.

Also, please do NOT encourage paarsurrey to tell more fairy tales about Muhammed (or anything else, for that matter). He just posted a fairy tale about Mary on another thread,and I don’t think he ought to be encouraged. I think you are being facitious, but still!

 

[obadiah]

I think it is not wise to curse anyone. Jesus teaches us to bless our enemies, and pray for them, but do not curse them.

Also, please do NOT encourage paarsurrey to tell more fairy tales about Muhammed (or anything else, for that matter). He just posted a fairy tale about Mary on another thread,and I don’t think he ought to be encouraged. I think you are being facitious, but still!

Your’e right, but how can I pray for someone already in hell? Muhammad is in Hell, all muslims who die unrepentant are in Hell.
God’s curse is upon Islam.
But please let me have those 72 virgins.:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

 

[AgnosTheist]

But I have to make a distinction between Islamic *religion ***

Misused? As if Islam is 100% benevolent. Is that what you think?

 

[obadiah]

…(anti Christic? Okay. that is a fair criticism)
…

How about calling it for what it REALLY is? ANTICHRIST. I have no love for a religion which LIES about my Lord Jesus.

 

[thedavidwilson]

Everyone should just admit right here they hardly know anything about Islam apart from what they hear on the news about the latest body count from the Middle East…

It is not that all muslims are violent and take over the world. The fact is that the koran encourages muslims to take over the world, subjugate other faiths until Islam reigns supreme. Please see the quotes below.

The fact that many muslims do not practice this is similar to many Catholics using birth control in the US. They are not practicing what their orthodox faith is preaching.

I think many westerner are waiting for “moderate” muslims to reject or reduce the signifigance on the texts below. We are waiting for a reformation of islam. Because there are many contradictions in islam, “allah” allowed for the aborgation of earlier verses by texts revealed later in Muhammed’s life. Unfortunatley the later part of Muhammed’s life were the most violent part becasue he had ascended to power in Medina and was able to raid caravans and act as a warlord.

By the way a Phobia is an irrational fear. I wish that when people use this term they justify it by poinitng out the irrationality. I see none.

From the “noble” koran (this is just a small sample of the violent texts in islam and does not even touch on the hadith, which is an accepted example of how muslims should live thier lives.

2:120: “Never will the Jews nor the Christians be pleased with you till you follow their religion. Say: "Verily, Islâmic Guidance is the only Guidance. And if you were to follow their desires after what you have received of Knowledge, then you would have against Allâh neither any protector nor helper.”

3:56: “As to those who disbelieve, I will punish them with a severe torment in this world and in the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers."

3:85: “And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.”

3:118: “O you who believe! Take not as your helpers or friends those outside your religion since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made plain to you the verses if you understand.”

3:178: “And let not the disbelievers think that Our postponing of their punishment is good for them. We postpone the punishment only so that they may increase in sinfulness. And for them is a disgracing torment.”

5:14: “And from those who call themselves Christians, We took their covenant, but they have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. So We planted amongst them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection, and Allâh will inform them of what they used to do.”

5:51: “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends, they are but friends to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as friends, then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allâh guides not those people who are the wrong*doers.”

5:73: “Surely, disbelievers are those who said: “Allâh is the third of the three (in a Trinity).” But there is no god but Allâh. And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them.”

8:39: “And fight them until there is no more disbelief in Islam and the religion will all be for Allâh Alone…”

9:23: “O you who believe! Take not for supporters your fathers and your brothers if they prefer disbelief to Belief. And whoever of you does so, then he is one of the wrong-doers.”

9:29: “Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not Islam as the religion of truth among the people of the Scripture, until they pay the Jizyah [religious tax] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”

9:34: “O you who believe! Verily, there are many of the Jewish rabbis and the Christian monks who devour the wealth of mankind in falsehood, and hinder men from the Way of Allâh. And those who hoard up gold and silver, and spend it not in the Way of Allâh – announce unto them a painful torment.”

9:123: “O you who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allâh is with those who are the pious.”

Quran, 9:29: “Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not Islam as the religion of truth among the people of the Scripture, until they pay the Jizyah [religious tax] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”.

 

[Keikiolu]

Let me start again by stating that I am not a Muslim, nor an apologist for Islam. I am a Catholic. That said, let me relate my experiences with Muslims. I lived in Morocco for 17 months and Iraq for 11.

I have never met a Muslim who was offended by Christians or Christianity. I never heard a Muslim insult Christians or Christianity. I have always been treated kindly and respectfully by the Muslims that I have met.

That is how it should be, and it’s wonderful that that has been your experience. Might you perhaps grant that others have had somewhat different experiences? If so, to what do you attribute the differences of those respective experiences?

Obviously, there are radical Muslims who are intolerant. The radical Muslims are ready to kill anyone who disagrees with them, Muslim or not. But they are not representative of most Muslims.

Individual persons should always be treated as individual persons. What does it tell us of “radical moslems” to point out that there are “non-radical moslems”? Answer: Nothing.

How much of a “percentage of population” is required for “radical moslems” to be before they are “a threat to their neighbors”…?

Until someone can say, “Until the jihadis become 12.5% of the moslem population in an area, there is no threat from jihadis!”, I’ll be wary of all moslems (in a thoroughly charitable way of course), and agitate for due action against proven jihadis whose behavior indicates that they are so.

Because Muslims don’t recognize the divinity of Jesus Christ, seeing him as a prophet, is that cause to hate them? Do you feel the same way about Jews?

Moslems are not to be hated, period.

Only where their “theology” fuels “evil behavior” is there any “hatred”, and that hatred is directed toward their behavior.

To NOT hate evil behavior is itself a sin. No…?

We don’t accept Muhammed as a prophet in Christianity, whereas the Jews reject Jesus Christ. Freedom of religion means that we are free to believe what we will. I think some people need to learn a little tolerance.

Once again, tolerance of evil behavior is the only thing to be rightfully intolerant of.

You confuse intolerance of evil with intolerance of belief, which is NOT a good formulation.

Those of you who get your opinions from what you see in the media, let me ask you a question. If you had never met a black person, and had to base your opinion of black people on what you saw in the media: gangsters, drug dealers, “rap artists” and thugs, how would you feel about them?

You ask a self answering question, which adds nothing but the statement, “If you were convinced that black people were evil, would you think that black people were evil?”

Those who “get their opinions from the media” (both right and left) exclusively are, and I think we can ALL agree on this, dolts.

The media in the country is dedicated to producing propaganda for our politicians. Much of that propaganda is aimed at producing hatred. Blacks have been portrayed as criminal buffons by the media, while our politicians come up with programs like “Affirmative Action” All Affirmative Action does is to portray blacks as incapable of competing against whites. This creates friction between blacks and whites.

No argument there…!

…continued below →

 

[Keikiolu]

…continued from above:

Muslims are also targeted. Certainly there are terrorist groups in the Middle East, but they are not reflective of most Muslims.

Once again, you forget the subject of the discussion. We’re not talking about “most moslems”,… we’re talking about “bad behaving moslems”.

Some Americans say: why don’t you peaceful Muslims speak up? Well, they do. You hear them on the Catholic Forum all the time. People argue with them.

People argue with those who posit the idea that “Islam is a peaceful religion”, and that “We don’t need to be on watch against jihadis because they’re ‘just a minority’ of moslems”.

Since folks like yourself, due mostly to “white guilt”, or some variant thereof, are always arguing THE WRONG SUBJECT, you fail to understand why other’s might see the “PERSECUTION OF EVIL DOERS” as NOT a bad thing.

When “we” (I), say, “Evil Doers”, you hear “Majority not-evildoing moslems”, contrary to what “we’ve” defined as our terms, which “you” never manage to hear.

Thus,… our constant talking over each other.

Why don’t you hear Muslims in the media speaking out against terrorism? Because they don’t fit in with the message the media present.

I hear a few moslems speaking out in the media. I also hear what happens to them when they do so. They are threatened. By whom? Not the “politicians” or the “right wing media” (the WHAT?).

Therefore, what is a sensible “think for yourself” conclusion to draw from this observation? That “moderate” moslems like to have normal lives as well as we do, and aren’t really into making life hell by speaking up about the “evildoers” in their “more immediate than mine being non-moslem” midst.

Your simplistic treatment that “it’s the media’s racial-strife mongering fault!”, simply doesn’t hold water.

Gun owners get the same treatment. Anytime a firearm is used to prevent a crime, it is not newsworthy. It doesn’t fit the message.

Whoo,… you’re a closet, or non-closet, “right winger” then…!? Cooooooool…

Catholic priests are presented as homosexual abusers. No one denies that there are some, but the perception given by the media is that they all are.

Once again,… he who doesn’t know what the media is is a dolt.

Muslims are people, just like everybody else. Some are good and some are bad.

How very accurate. And nice too…!

And how does this help anyone tease out the incredibly important question of what to do about the subject at hand, which is the threat of those who threaten,… whatever you may want to call them?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Keikiolu]

I am not defending Islam. I am only criticizing extreme and simplisic views on a complicated situation.

As Christians we are to do everything in the spirit of love and truth.(I DO read my Bible) We are also to be peacemakers. Calling Islam evil does none of these things.(anti Christic? Okay. that is a fair criticism)

There is plenty in Islamic history that infuriates me. Much of how Islam was used was indeed evil.

**But I have to make a distinction between Islamic *religion *****

The above bolded text is THE CRUX of the matter.

I, personally, DO in fact call islam, as delineated in the koran, as a “religion”, evil. Period.

I see islam as a veneer of “religiosity” thinly disguising a blueprint for the subjugation of mankind to a thug-archic "hier"archy (the “hier” being a misuse of the term) of slavemasters.

Do I think that is how moslems (“good ones”) see islam? No. They see what they wish to see that best fits with that they want to do in life. If they want to be productive citizens of a country, they see it one way. If they want to be jihadis bent on instituting the umma, they see it another way.

Does my opinion of islam affect my dealings with moslems? Not really, other than my being wary of them in terms of “promotion of the political goals of islam”.

People are to be treated as people. I deal with people based on their behavior, not on their “inner thoughts”, as I would expect others to deal with me.

To institute “mindcrimes”, on either “side”, is an evil.

I also have to acknowledge those Muslims who are trying to live down the violent and imperialist past and become people of peace and are trying to reinterpret Islam in that light. As Christians it behooves us not to make simple generalizations that cause insult and pain.

 

[phil8888]

I think you’re right, and I also think Christians must stop feeling bad about the Crusades. Islam went around literally slaughtering entire villages, and it continues to do so. Anti-Christians try to push the propaganda that Christians were the bad ones, because they defended their territory. If Muslims defended their territory, no one would say anything. Look at all the conflicts going on around the world, about 95% of them involve Muslims attacking others.

Think about it:

• Pakistanis attacking Indians (Muslims and Hindus)
• Sudan (Muslims killing Christians)
• Crusades (Muslims killing and conquering Christian lands)
• Palestinians killing Jews
• Chechnyans killing people in Russia
• All the suicide bombers
• Many, many more…

This is only what I can think of off the top of my head, and there’s many many more. How can anyone look at all this and claim that Muslims are peaceful. That’s not even part of their religion. Their religion is to spread Islam by any means necessary. Muhammad was a warmonger who went around slaughtering innocent people to spread his kingdom. I mean SERIOUSLY!

 

[iamrefreshed]

I’ve posted these questions at least three times and have yet to receive a reply from a Muslim apologist.

If Muslims are against violence why have the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas (both self-avowed violent organizations) won elections in several countries?

How does this show me that a “majority” of Muslims are opposed to violence?

 

[abu_kamoon]

It’s an interesting example you chose of the hateful media/politician dynamic. Do you realize that the same liberal media and politicians that came up with Affirmative Action and perpetuate the stereotype of blacks as thugs are the same people who want us to believe that Islam is a peaceful religion? If they were so bent on “equal opportunity hate” then why aren’t they all over Muslims too?

You are correct when you point out that it is not the “Liberal” hate mongers who are demonizing Muslims. It is the “Neo Con” hate mongers.

Many Americans think that there is a difference. In reality, they are two heads of the same snake. The Neo Cons are working as fast to promote hatred and attack our Bill of Rights as the Liberals. Where Liberals attack Christianity, Neo Cons attack Islam. Where the Liberals attack the Second Amendment, the Neo Cons have been undermining the Fouth Amendment (freedom from unreasonable search) and the Fifth Amendment (right to a trial by jury open to the public, freedom from cruel and unusual punishment, right to face your accuser).

Both the Liberals and the Neo Cons promote hatred because they provide the American people with a safe outlet to “throw the rascals out” every two or four years. But nothing ever changes. The Liberals and the Neo Cons are fronts for those who would like to see our Bill of Rights destroyed, and control the American people.

As I’ve said before, I am not an apoligist for Islam. I am only pointing out that Islam has been around for a long time. Isn’t it strange that we never heard John Kennedy, or Franklin Roosevelt, let alone Woodrow Wilson or even George Washington warning us against it?

You have to understand the difference between Muslims, Islam and terrorist groups who kill in the name of their brand of Islam. This is similar to the various groups of Catholics and Protestants who have killed their opponents over the years to protect “Christianity”.

Religion doesn’t kill. People kill in the name of religion. And ususally, it is for power.

 

[DB_AND_ALI]

Every negative thing? Well let’s see: Muslims can build Mosques in the United States. Catholics can’t build churches in Saudi Arabia.

You hit the nail on the head…then pray tell me PLEASE [ANYBODY PLEASE !!!] why has the western world not stood up and said : NO MORE…if you do not grant christians the same fundamental rights as muslims then we are boycotting you/applying sanctions or not allowing any new mosques on our soil ! The west has sold it’s soul for oil and the arabic/muslim countries also realise that this oil is running out , hence their buying up of real estate in western countries. We had better wake up and fast !!!

 

[boog123]

Do you think *jihad *is extreme?

It’s central to Islam, ergo, Islam is extreme

u r judging basically, your putting the blame on all muslims because of terrorists who use islam and the word jihad for there negative reasons, like if i were to talk about kukluxklansmen (who claimed to be christians) and used christianity and some of it’s teachings for there negative ways, it’s the same thing.
Jesus said love your enemies
he also said:

"Do not judge so that you will not be judged. "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? "Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye? "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye. (Matthew 7:1-5)

 

[tofurunner32]

First off I’m new here so please be kind to me as a newbie.

I’ve been reading this thread for a while now (its either a little slow at work today or I’m lazy, both I suspect) and I’ve been a bit taken aback by the vitriolic comments in a lot of the postings. I’d like suggest a few things:

1. To any Catholic here who would describe Islam as Satanic or demonic, or false religion I would point to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, specifically the following citation:

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”[330]

If this has already been covered, I apologize, I admit I have not read every single one of the over 400 responses this thread has. Nonetheless, I think this is very important, for Catholics at least. To call Islam a false religion is to flatly contradict the Catechism, which no Catholic should do lightly. In fact, I have seen quite a few other threads suuggesting liberal Catholics who refuse to accept other elements of Catholic teaching (abortion, gay marriage) should leave the Church entirely. Now I’m certainly not suggesting this for any Catholic here, I’m simply noting that the Church hierarchy clearly does not see Islam as evil, quite the opposite evidentially.

1. For all those who believe Islam to be fundamentally violent I would suggest reading “The Place of Tolerance in Islam” by Khaled Abou El Fadl, a professor of law at UCLA law school and a noted expert in Islamic jurisprudence. He makes a convincing argument why Islam is not inherently violent. It has contains some other essays on the topic which showcase the debate on the subject. A good read and a fairly short one too. I’d suggest it for everyone here. I would also advise those who think moderate Muslims are being silent on the violence and extremism in their own religion to read the following article by Dr. Muqtedar Khan, assistant professor of political science at Adrian College in Michigan.

ijtihad.org/memo.htm

Just suggestions, I can only hope they encourage everyone here to tone things down a bit.

God Bless

 

[thedavidwilson]

First off I’m new here so please be kind to me as a newbie.

I’ve been reading this thread for a while now (its either a little slow at work today or I’m lazy, both I suspect) and I’ve been a bit taken aback by the vitriolic comments in a lot of the postings. I’d like suggest a few things:

1. To any Catholic here who would describe Islam as Satanic or demonic, or false religion I would point to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, specifically the following citation:

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”[330]

If this has already been covered, I apologize, I admit I have not read every single one of the over 400 responses this thread has. Nonetheless, I think this is very important, for Catholics at least. To call Islam a false religion is to flatly contradict the Catechism, which no Catholic should do lightly. In fact, I have seen quite a few other threads suuggesting liberal Catholics who refuse to accept other elements of Catholic teaching (abortion, gay marriage) should leave the Church entirely. Now I’m certainly not suggesting this for any Catholic here, I’m simply noting that the Church hierarchy clearly does not see Islam as evil, quite the opposite evidentially.

1. For all those who believe Islam to be fundamentally violent I would suggest reading “The Place of Tolerance in Islam” by Khaled Abou El Fadl, a professor of law at UCLA law school and a noted expert in Islamic jurisprudence. He makes a convincing argument why Islam is not inherently violent. It has contains some other essays on the topic which showcase the debate on the subject. A good read and a fairly short one too. I’d suggest it for everyone here. I would also advise those who think moderate Muslims are being silent on the violence and extremism in their own religion to read the following article by Dr. Muqtedar Khan, assistant professor of political science at Adrian College in Michigan.

ijtihad.org/memo.htm

Just suggestions, I can only hope they encourage everyone here to tone things down a bit.

God Bless

“these profess to hold the faith of Abraham”

It does not say they hold the same faith as Abraham just that they profess that faith. If they deny the trinity they are not the True faith and do not believe in the True God as was revealed to us by Christ. Muhammed is a false prophet and Islam is a false religion.

As for the violence in islam please check out the following websites:

Exposing the role that Islamic jihad theology and ideology play in the modern global conflicts

Exposing the role that Islamic jihad theology and ideology play in the modern global conflicts

www.jihadwatch.org

dhimmiwatch.com
hotair.com/archives/2007/05/26/hot-air-introduces-blogging-the-quran/

God bless and welcome to CA!

 

[boog123]

“these profess to hold the faith of Abraham”

It does not say they hold the same faith as Abraham just that they profess that faith. If they deny the trinity they are not the True faith and do not believe in the True God as was revealed to us by Christ. Muhammed is a false prophet and Islam is a false religion.

As for the violence in islam please check out the following websites:

jihadwatch.org
dhimmiwatch.com
hotair.com/archives/2007/05/26/hot-air-introduces-blogging-the-quran/

God bless and welcome to CA!

according to u not to the muslims
boog
"Do not judge so that you will not be judged. "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? "Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye? "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye. (Matthew 7:1-5)

 

[thedavidwilson]

according to u not to the muslims
boog
"Do not judge so that you will not be judged. "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? "Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye? "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye. (Matthew 7:1-5)

Judgement and acknowledging/defending the Truth (capital T) are two different things. God bless.

 

[roman6320]

While not every Muslim is violent, Islam itself is inherently violent. Violence and hatred against disbelievers is a core doctrine - in explicit detail in the Quran.

You cannot equate past Christian anti-semitism with Islamic anti-disbelievers because of the simple fact that the Bible does not teach anti-semitism. Jesus Christ did not tell his followers to persecute Jews. If any Christians did that - then they have done so without his approval.

That is not the same with Islam. Muhammad himself told Muslims to hate and commit violence against disbelievers.

I hope you will come to see the difference.

I understand the difference you are trying to point out. I know perfectly well that niether Jesus nor the church taught antisemitism. I even wrote an article on a friend’s website criticising James Carroll’s attitude towards the Church in that regard.(don’t get me going on HIM)
Where I disagree is when you say that Mohammed taught to hate and commit violence against non Muslims. I point out the possiblity(just a possibility mind you) that these militant verses were meant for a certain time and context(like the pagan Arab tribes attempt to wipe out Mohammed and his followers) and not meant to be principles to be followed for all time. After all, there are also verses in the Koran that tell Muslims to treat Christians and Jews well.
We really aren’t that far apart. You rightly point out the extremist rhetoric prevalent in the Islamic world. Also the militant verses in the Koran can’t be ignored and must be dealt with by the Muslim community. I don’t disagree with any of that. I am just concerned with extremes It is true that current fears about Islam can’t be equated with anti-semitism–yet. I am just concerned that itr stays that way

 

[Verisimilitude]

I point out the possiblity(just a possibility mind you) that these militant verses were meant for a certain time and context(like the pagan Arab tribes attempt to wipe out Mohammed and his followers) and not meant to be principles to be followed for all time. After all, there are also verses in the Koran that tell Muslims to treat Christians and Jews well.

Please ask Moslems if the violent verses are limited to a specific time, place, or people and not the final word of god for all people.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

I’m sorry, Roman, but what you’re saying is contrary to the evidence. Muhammad never limited his ‘jihad’ verses to a certain time. In fact, the most hateful ones were ‘revealed’ in a time of peace when he had already subjugated Arabia.

In the hadiths, he told his followers to go forth into the surrounding countries to fight the infidels just as in the jihad verses.

Thus, your position, though oft-repeated by Islamo-apologists, is just wishful thinking and projection.