I'm So Ashamed Of Myself

[Holly3278]

I am so ashamed of myself. I went to a neighbor’s apartment just a little bit ago to visit and there was this older middle aged guy there. They were watching Jimmy Swaggert on tv. Well, the topic was not centered around Jimmy Swaggert but around faith and faith plus works. As we Catholics know, we are saved by faith plus works not by faith alone. Well, here’s what happened.

I was sitting there and this guy said “Jimmy Swaggert used to be really off the wall.” or something to that effect and he said “But now I’ll listen to him.” and I said, “Oh, is this Jimmy Swaggert on tv?” and he said “Yes.” and I said, “I didn’t know. I’m Catholic so I’m not too familiar with them.” and he said, “I’m sorry.” I said, “Why are you sorry?” and he said “How are you going to get to Heaven?” and I had no idea how to respond so I said “Through Jesus.” and this got a satisfactory response from the man. But then somehow the conversation changed to salvation being with or without works. As a Catholic, I clearly believe that salvation is by faith plus works, not by faith alone as this man believed. This man totally dominated the conversation and was saying “I can quote 1,000 verses that say that we are not saved by our works.” and stuff. He said stuff like this repeatedly. Then he quoted Ephesians 2:8-9.

Eph 2:8 RSV For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–
Eph 2:9 RSV not because of works, lest any man should boast.

I was totally dumbfounded. I couldn’t remember how to respond to this verse. I did not have a Bible handy so I couldn’t remember the exact wording of it. I stumbled around for a bit and then remembered the following verses to which I paraphrased them to him:

Jas 2:17 RSV So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

Jas 2:24 RSV You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

He then said something about how you have to look at the verses in context or something like that and how us Catholics “cherry pick” verses in the Bible. (As if Protestants don’t do that all the time. Us Catholics are not guilty of cherry picking, it is the Protestants who are guilty of that!" So yeah he basically ignored those verses without even stumbling in his argument.

Next, I was like “Well, I know that the Bible leads me and a million other people to Catholicism.” and this guy basically kept implying that us Catholics didn’t know our Bible.

I am disgusted that I did not handle the conversation better and that I couldn’t defend faith plus works better than I did. I’m sure God is quite ashamed of me for not being ready for this.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

No need to be ashamed at all.

Apologetics is not for everyone - and I wonder just how much good it really does at times.

I take the way of the Patron Saint of Joy - I ask such persons to pray that I always follow the call of God in my life and tell them I would do the same for them.

 

[Holly3278]

No need to be ashamed at all.

Apologetics is not for everyone - and I wonder just how much good it really does at times.

I take the way of the Patron Saint of Joy - I ask such persons to pray that I always follow the call of God in my life and tell them I would do the same for them.

Yeah but I have always felt called to defend the Faith. And yet I can’t seem to do that. That is one reason why I am so ashamed of myself. I want to win converts to Catholicism but how am I going to do that when I can’t even defend a doctrine as simple as salvation by faith plus works?

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Yeah but I have always felt called to defend the Faith. And yet I can’t seem to do that. That is one reason why I am so ashamed of myself. I want to win converts to Catholicism but how am I going to do that when I can’t even defend a doctrine as simple as salvation by faith plus works?

Perhaps St Philip Neri’s way is the best way for you.

He did a damn good job with it (and asking ‘when shall we begin to do good?’) - he is the Bell of the Jesuits, 2nd Apostle to Rome and, above all, the Patron Saint of Joy.

 

[InLight247]

No need to feel what you feel, seriously. You did a good job.

There is a problem of pre-conceived notion, a serious one, among the Protestants’ mentality toward Catholics. They are misinformed by their pastors, in many cases, that Catholics don’t read Bible, Catholics are not even Christians. This is very sad, not only they have to alienate themselves from the true Church, the Church established by Christ, they have to attack the true Church.

This Sunday’s Gospel talks about “oneness”. When I was listening to it, I thought about the divisions between Catholics and Protestants, their misconception and hostility toward Catholics, my heart was really saddened. To make matter worse is no matter how many times we show, not only tell, about our belief, they still hold onto their prejudice. I guess when they are brain washed for so long, it is hard to be un-brain washed. Whatever we said to them are falling to dead ears. It could be very frustrating. But try not to allow it get to you. We might as well not continue to talk to the wall.

We Catholics always take Protestants as our brothers in Christ, but they see us almost as enemy sometimes.
Who has more grace from God in this case?

You have nothing to be ashamed of. You did a good job.

 

[BeeSweet]

Give yourself a break, I think you did very well!! Unless you have your Bible in your hands, there’s only so much you can do. This is because Catholics do not “cherry pick” verses, we know they have to be read in context. That’s why we don’t compete with people to see who can recite the most verses from the Bible. It’s not the verse, but the Book that matters. I think the only thing you could have done better is to have your Bible with you, a Catholic Bible, and also have more faith and confidence in yourself and your church. You’d be surprised how many arguments can be won by a calm confident demeanor!

They want to shake you. Don’t let them see that they’ve done this, because then they feel justified.

“Let nothing disturb you; Let nothing frighten you. All things are passing. God never changes. Patience obtains all things. Nothing is wanting to him who possesses God. God alone suffices.” ~ St. Theresa’s bookmark.

Another thing, we have so much more to know because we have the full deposit of faith, with the early church fathers, our holy and wonderful saints, and our long line of papal succession. Remind yourself that you have this behind you, and they are not even aware of any of it! No matter what, don’t forget they may know more verses of the Bible than you do, but they don’t know the Truth!

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

Apologetics is not for everyone - and I wonder just how much good it really does at times.

I disagree with you wholeheartedly. Apologetics is not only for everyone, it is necessary for speading the Gospel. How one will defend the faith is where each and every one of us can differ. St. Francis of Assisi had his way, St. Thomas More had his way. St. Paul the Apostle had his way and St. Therese of Lisiex had hers.

 

[Ted_in_Charlott]

Do not be ashamed. Even the devil can quote scripture. Show them great works of love as your witness (like an earlier person alluded to in St Francis).

They get their gospel from comic books (Chick publications) and whoremongers (Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker). They have to take books out of the Bible in order to make their message work. Their baptism is just a sign, their Lord’s Supper is just a symbol, they believe in such heresies as OSAS, Sola Scriptura, Faith alone and treat the Blessed Virgin with great contempt.

Carry a pocketful of tracts in your purse (Pillar of Fire comes to mind) and when asked give them the tract. If they won’t take it then do what Jesus said: Wipe the dust of your feet and don’t cast your pearls before swine.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

I disagree with you wholeheartedly. Apologetics is not only for everyone, it is necessary for speading the Gospel. How one will defend the faith is where each and every one of us can differ. St. Francis of Assisi had his way, St. Thomas More had his way. St. Paul the Apostle had his way and St. Therese of Lisiex had hers.

Neri did not see get into apologetics and responded to people as I indicated.

I have seen too many efforts degenerate into contests - perhaps starting with Neri’s example could cut that down (I have yet to have anyone move on how wrong/mistaken Catholics are after the request).

 

[water]

Yeah but I have always felt called to defend the Faith. And yet I can’t seem to do that. That is one reason why I am so ashamed of myself. I want to win converts to Catholicism but how am I going to do that when I can’t even defend a doctrine as simple as salvation by faith plus works?

I think Bishop Fulton Sheen said “Win argument, lose a soul”. So, don’t worry about you couldn’t answer all the questions. Simply tell the person that you don’t have the answer right now but you will look it up in Catechism and get back to him later.

The benefit of realizing yourself not being able to answer is also beneficial to you. It will give you more desire to learn about your faith first. So, pray to the Holy Spirit to guide you.

At this point, don’t worry about converting people to Catholicsm by what you say, but converting them by what you do.

God bless.

 

[Holly3278]

Thank you everyone for your tips, advice, and encouragement. It is greatly appreciated. I’ll be honest, I did the best I could with what I had at the time. I just hated that this guy had to be so hateful (or loving to me in his likely opinion) to me just because I am a Catholic. It really amazes me how people can justify feeling that we Catholics aren’t even Christians just because our beliefs differ.

 

[HeWillProvide]

It might be easier if next time you see this guy, you ask, “Hey, is it okay if I get your email address so I can forward you information regarding your statements about the Catholic faith? This will give me time to better organize my thoughts and present you with a clearer picture… and then you can respond via email if you want, too.”

That way, you can take your time,look up stuff, and present straightforward stuff taken from reputable catholic sites and not have to put it all into your own words. He can do the same, if he likes.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Thank you everyone for your tips, advice, and encouragement. It is greatly appreciated. I’ll be honest, I did the best I could with what I had at the time. I just hated that this guy had to be so hateful (or loving to me in his likely opinion) to me just because I am a Catholic. It really amazes me how people can justify feeling that we Catholics aren’t even Christians just because our beliefs differ.

Well I guess it balances out those of ‘our own’ who can be the same way with nonCatholics of any kind.

 

[Spirithound]

Jas 2:17 RSV So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

Jas 2:24 RSV You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

He then said something about how you have to look at the verses in context or something like that and how us Catholics “cherry pick” verses in the Bible. (As if Protestants don’t do that all the time. Us Catholics are not guilty of cherry picking, it is the Protestants who are guilty of that!" So yeah he basically ignored those verses without even stumbling in his argument.

I am disgusted that I did not handle the conversation better and that I couldn’t defend faith plus works better than I did. I’m sure God is quite ashamed of me for not being ready for this.

Don’t be ashamed!!! Or disgusted! You were engaging with someone you didn’t know, perhaps it wouldn’t have been prudent to hammer him with doctrine. However, you represented well, you got James out there, my only suggestion (and this is a learning experience, everything is a learning experience!) is to ask him where it says anywhere in the Bible “FAITH ALONE”? James is the only one. Try asking him to explain that verse, if it does mean what it plainly says.
God bless.

 

[sunflower74]

He’s misunderstanding those verses. Paul was writing to correct the misconception that converts to Christianity had to observe the Jewish food laws and circumcision, the “works of the law”. They now were under the law of Christ, the fulfilment of the old law. Paul is not condemning works of love, he would agree with what James is saying about faith being dead without works.

 

[SenorSalsa]

Dont feel bad, you came up with two more verses than i could have, and im about to start persuing a vocation to the Priesthood

 

[CradleCath]

Perhaps St Philip Neri’s way is the best way for you.

He did a damn good job with it (and asking ‘when shall we begin to do good?’) - he is the Bell of the Jesuits, 2nd Apostle to Rome and, above all, the Patron Saint of Joy.

How do you feel about St. Philip Neri being the recipient of several appartitions:

“While he was with the greatest earnestness asking of the Holy Ghost His gifts, **there appeared to him a globe of fire, which entered into his mouth and lodged in his breast; **and thereupon he was suddenly surprised with such a fire of love, that, unable to bear it, he threw himself on the ground, and, like one trying to cool himself, bared his breast to temper in some measure the flame which he felt. When he had remained so for some time, and was a little recovered, he rose up full of unwonted joy, and immediately all his body began to shake with a violent tremour; and putting his hand to his bosom, he felt by the side of his heart, a swelling about as big as a man’s fist, but neither then nor afterwards was it attended with the slightest pain or wound.” The cause of this swelling was discovered by the doctors who examined his body after death. **The saint’s heart had been dilated under the sudden impulse of love, and in order that it might have sufficient room to move, two ribs had been broken, and curved in the form of an arch. From the time of the miracle till his death, his heart would palpitate violently whenever he performed any spiritual action. **

And another time:

" His perplexity was set at rest by a** vision of St. John the Baptist, and by another vision of two souls in glory**, one of whom was eating a roll of bread, signifying God’s will that he should live in Rome for the good of souls as though he were in a desert, abstaining as far as possible from the use of meat".

And again:

He would sometimes tell a penitent his most secret sins without his confessing them; and once he converted a young nobleman by showing him a vision of hell.

St. Philip Neri was also an ascetic, practicing strict self-denial as a measure of personal and especially spiritual discipline. He whipped himself with chains, ate one meal a day… of bread & water… & slept on the floor. Several miracles are attributed to St. Philip Neri’s intercession. I personally find him a delightful saint

 

[Eilish_Maura]

How do you feel about St. Philip Neri being the recipient of several appartitions:

And another time:

And again:

St. Philip Neri was also an ascetic, practicing strict self-denial as a measure of personal and especially spiritual discipline. He whipped himself with chains, ate one meal a day… of bread & water… & slept on the floor. Several miracles are attributed to St. Philip Neri’s intercession. I personally find him a delightful saint

It is not fair to the OP to derail the thread.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

The next time you meet a “cherry picker”, ask him or her how they explain Paul’s epistle to the Philippians, 2:12 which says, "So then my dearly beloved, obedient as always to my urging, work with anxious concern to achieve your salvation, not only when I happen to be with you but all the more now that I am absent."
I don’t know about him, but it surely sounds to me like we need just a little bit more than just faith in Jesus. The problem with many holding that only faith alone is necessary, is that they believe they are incapable of sin. I don’t know how many I have had tell me this.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B