I'm starting to believe NFP is sinful

[jwinch2]

I guess I could be wrong, but I don’t really think a lot of people use NFP for selfish reasons. Maybe they do and I just don’t hear about it. Seems like pretty much all the people I know who do things like space babies apart or postpone them altogether because of frivolous reasons are on artificial birth control.
All those I know who do NFP do it only in months when they have a serious reason to do so. And on a more personal level, I just can’t imagine anyone abstaining unless they had a really good reason to do so. We have had months where we didn’t abstain and probably should have for my health, but just couldn’t resist each others’ charm! If you like your spouse and have a healthy libido, abstaining during your fertile time periods is hard! As it should be!
I think some Catholic organization should survey NFP users and find out what their reasons are for abstaining. I think the results would probably put to rest this idea that large numbers of people are voluntarily abstaining for frivolous reasons.

Only like 2% of people even practice NFP. I don’t think people willing to do it are the types to do it without good reason.

Good points. NFP takes dedication and discipline on the part of both husband and wife. It takes months to learn how to do properly and a significant investment in time and effort. If a couple is willing to take the classes, track and analyze the data, and abstain during fertile periods, they likely have what to them, is a serious reason for doing so. The wife having to set her alarm for very early in the morning, which wakes both persons up, so that she can get her temp. at a consistent time every day, is a burden. Tracking mucus signs, and learning to understand and track the cervix sign is a burden. Abstaining from sexual relations when persons would rather not is a burden.

Your average “dissenter” who just wants to prevent pregnancy all together will more than likely just use contraception and be done with it. Having practiced NFP and knowing the amount of work and effort it actually is, I have a very hard time seeing someone who disagrees with Church teaching on marriage and children actually going that route. Perhaps I am naive, but I’m not seeing it.

 

[Walking_Home]

A married couple can, as long as both are in agreement, abstain temporarily during certain times of their cycle to delay pregnancy for serious reasons.** What they cannot do is have one person without sexual relations from the other one when both are not in agreement**.

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Caution with that. There are men who believe – that when the wife does not want to have sex – they have a right to force sex (rape) the wife. This is their “Traditional” view of marriage. What keeps them from going through with the rape – is that there are laws now in place – that can prosecute them for the rape.

 

[JDeL]

I just wanted to reassure the original poster that my wife and I are in the same boat as you and Liza. Preventing pregnancy using NFP to prevent preganancy is sinful unless there are grave or serious reasons to do so. I venture to say that these are rare (but there) for Catholics in Western Civilization.

Our story is very unique. We were told we would never get pregnant after we lost the first three babies. Then God sent our miracle to us. We hope he will send more miracles over the remaining fertile years of our marriage.

All of these NFP discussions especially those attacking people who look at NFP as licit but rarely needed make our little family very sad. So many couples struggle so much just to have a child or two, and then fertile couples delay children until the house is paid, the savings allow a lifestyle with fancy vacations, and the college fund is funded. We find that posts that say that frivolous reasons for NFP are acceptable because they were prayerfully discerned are extremely painful to those with trouble conceiving at any time, especially those who lack affluence and go paycheck to paycheck.

 

[jwinch2]

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Caution with that. There are men who believe – that when the wife does not want to have sex – they have a right to force sex (rape) the wife. This is their “Traditional” view of marriage. What keeps them from going through with the rape – is that there are laws now in place – that can prosecute them for the rape.

Then they are wrong, and it is an entirely separate issue.

 

[jwinch2]

We find that posts that say that frivolous reasons for NFP are acceptable because they were prayerfully discerned are extremely painful to those with trouble conceiving at any time, especially those who lack affluence and go paycheck to paycheck.

Please show me where people have stated that “frivolous reasons” are acceptable for delaying pregnancy through NFP. Be specific.

 

[PaulinVA]

The Church has spoken and NFP for “grave” or “serious” reasons to postpone pregnancy is acceptable.

If you feel that you want to go beyond what the Church teaches and not use any method of birth regulation, that is fine. But don’t try to force your decision on other people.

 

[masha]

I agree with lizzie in stating that the Church has never defined “grave” reasons. I keep hearing about these “grave reasons” yet no one can really define what they are! For all we know, grave reasons could be because couple A wants to travel the world first before having a child (heard that before) or because couple B want to get 2 master’s degrees (heard that before). I’ve heard even worse, and not a single reason was justifiable. Only in one instance in the past few years have I heard anything close. A friend of mine nearly died from organ failure, so she and her husband refrained during her healing.

I think, Gingerly, that you need to remember that the ‘reasons’ a friend might give you are not necessarily the deeper reason the couple is choosing to use NFP…And this is exactly my problem with the NFP culture - it gives people a sense that they have a right to know why, when, and how a couple is living out their openness to life. In a conversation about “when are you going start trying for number 2, or 3, or 6?” A woman may not feel comfortable (and for good reason) saying “Oh, we’re waiting for Bob to overcome his porn addiction before having another baby.” or “I just need to wean myself off of depression meds first”…It isn’t anyone’s business, but it often is treated like an open topic. So it’s easier (not always completely right, albeit) to give a little reason that may have contributed slightly to the choice but is more modest (in the verbal sense) than the deeper reason. Remember that the only person whose relationship to God you are truely able to judge is your own, and assume the best of the people around you, many people’s lives are full of struggles you’ll never know of.

 

[Kit15]

Good points. NFP takes dedication and discipline on the part of both husband and wife. It takes months to learn how to do properly and a significant investment in time and effort. If a couple is willing to take the classes, track and analyze the data, and abstain during fertile periods, they likely have what to them, is a serious reason for doing so. The wife having to set her alarm for very early in the morning, which wakes both persons up, so that she can get her temp. at a consistent time every day, is a burden. Tracking mucus signs, and learning to understand and track the cervix sign is a burden. Abstaining from sexual relations when persons would rather not is a burden.

Your average “dissenter” who just wants to prevent pregnancy all together will more than likely just use contraception and be done with it. Having practiced NFP and knowing the amount of work and effort it actually is, I have a very hard time seeing someone who disagrees with Church teaching on marriage and children actually going that route. Perhaps I am naive, but I’m not seeing it.

Pretty much…if you are that set on having “sex without consequences” for frivolous reasons there are much easier ways to go about it then collect/analyze all this data and then not have sex.

 

[JackieMom]

Really, does anyone who wants to postpone a pregnancy because they want to buy a Porche or because they are sick of having baby stuff around the house going to even bother with NFP? I do not think so. Selfish people who don’t value family just go straight for the BC.

 

[KCT]

Preventing pregnancy is the same thing as using the pill, or a condom.]

Preventing and avoiding are not the same thing.

 

[EasterJoy]

…And this is exactly my problem with the NFP culture - it gives people a sense that they have a right to know why, when, and how a couple is living out their openness to life…

People who stick their noses into the business of others cause needless harm to their neighbors and need to address that as a spiritual fault, but that attitude is not a consequence of NFP. What are you seeing, rather, is what happens when that unfortunate attitude is brought into any culture, NFP or otherwise. The culture gets the blame, as if the spiritual fault wasn’t some separate thing. Yes, though, people do sometimes make themselves the self-appointed NFP Police, and they make more than a casual nuisance of themselves…far more than they realize, I feel very sure.

 

[Chiltepin]

I am not sure where you learned this but this is very wrong. I am pregnant with my 6th baby and all have been delivered by c section. there is no limit. It is a case by case sitiation and the DR can make suggestions but u wouls not be wandering around looking for a hospital w no prenatal care…at least not here in the USA. I dunno what country u are from. My 1st c section was emergency. I ahve had 4 others that were sched and have been completed smoothly. the DR is always amazed at how nicely I have healed after each one. Everyone heals differently so theres no saying how many c sections u could have, but DR certainly cant force u into haveing only 2-3 children n certainly cant refuse u care! I have swtiched DR 3x including moving out of state, so its not a matter of me just finding a DR that I was lucky enough that would keep me as a patient. I really urge u to do more research…

I am really relieved to hear that. The person telling me all this is my sister who is currently trying for a VBAC with her second child. Your story was so re-assuring that I shared it with her. She says it depends on the person and the doctor. Some doctors say the scar tissue on some women make it like trying to cut into cement. Others say there is nothing left to sew back up and you end up with an emergency hysterectomy. All of those things did not diminish my trust in God, but did make me wonder if we might have some responsibility in those situations to space them out so you don’t end up surprise gutted by a doctor. Then she went on to mention some woman that had 5 c-sections and got stuck delivering her babies in a taxi the natural way and had no complications. I am so glad that your story encouraged her to elaborate because I was really freaking out and starting to care when my fertile times were for the first time in my life

All that being said, I’m not even very good at taking a daily multi-vitamin, much less tracking all this data, especially now that I have a baby. Waking temperature, yeah right! I do think it is an awfully harsh position the OP is taking that almost no one has good reason to know their cycle and space out their children. Few of us who use or try to use NFP really feel like we are totally in control of what is going on. Many of us do want large families if that is what God has in mind for us. Nobody says you have to use it, but we shouldnt all be judged as trying to get another degree or go on vacation or have a small family. It is really insulting.

 

[ahs]

I’d like to invite you to consider some things and ask you to provide us with solid Church teaching to support an assertion or two of yours…

…what disgusts me is to see how easily and readily Catholics will re-interpret teachings to suit their own minds.

What Church teaching is being re-interpreted, and by whom, to suit one’s belief that NFP is not sinful? Please provide the pertinent Church teaching you are referring to.

It bothers me to see how people don’t think stopping sex during fertile periods isn’t birth control, and birth control is sinful. We aren’t supposed to withhold ourselves from our spouses, or else what is the point in marrying?

Is birth control sinful? Has the Church ever taught this? Or rather is it contraception, or any act that thwarts the procreative nature of an act (taking place) which is a sin? As to the point of marriage, the Church teaches on this as well, and I have never seen anything suggesting that withholding sex, provided each couple agrees and only such that it is necessary, adversely affects marriage. Have you? Please support your reply with actual Church teaching.

I agree with lizzie in stating that the Church has never defined “grave” reasons. I keep hearing about these “grave reasons” yet no one can really define what they are!

Is there a reason we need to define what it “grave” or “just” for every couple? Or do you suppose perhaps that each couple is unique? By the way, if you read a few posts back, one poster supplied something close to a definition of just reasons by Pope Pius XII…do you suppose what he listed is not sufficient? Perhaps you have greater wisdom than the Church and can supply a list for us?

…I’ve heard even worse, and not a single reason was justifiable. Only in one instance in the past few years have I heard anything close. A friend of mine nearly died from organ failure, so she and her husband refrained during her healing.

So, are we to defer to you as the judge on whether or not we have just reasons? Has the Church suggested that we need to have our reasons approved by anyone? Provide the pertinent Church teaching please.

For some reason people have this idea in their minds that if birth control isn’t used, a woman will have 10 kids automatically and always die. A lot of women nowadays can’t even get pregnant that easily, and the max I’ve seen is about 6 or so.

Why is this statement relevant to the topic? And why is 6 the max a woman can expect to have…just because that’s all you’ve seen? And why does the number matter?

I wrote this question because I am feeling convicted about this topic…I am using NFP right now and as far as learning to track my cycle, it’s good. But using it to prevent pregnancies? It seems no better than the pill.

How does NFP prevent pregnancy? (hint…it involves not having sex in the fertile time, and having sex in the natural manner any other time). How does the pill prevent pregnancy? (hint…it involves having sex whenever, and prevents ovulation/thickens cervival mucus making it hostile to sperm/prevents implantation of an embryo.) There is a world of difference.

 

[mrs_ahs]

However, I cannot in good conscience use it for birth control use because I see nothing in the Church’s history saying family planning is acceptable.

Sure, there was a pope who did say family planning was okay from time to time, but his words were fallible. He wasn’t making an infallible statement and I’ve read enough to know NFP is preventing pregnancy. Preventing pregnancy is the same thing as using the pill, or a condom. How is having couples deliberately avoiding sex during their fertile times any different from withholding your fertility all the time with condoms, the pill, shots, the patch, etc.?

Well, a) You obviously have not read very much Church history, and, b) you state that there is nothing in Church history saying family planning is acceptable, then you go on to say that there actually is, but it was spoken infallibly by popes. Is that correct? How long have you been Catholic, exactly?

NFP does not “prevent pregnancy.” NFP is the observation of signs which inform a woman of her potential fertility and infertility at a given time. A couple’s behavior is what determines whether pregnancy is being invited or** avoided**. The difference between NFP and the pill, condoms, etc. is that with contraception, a couple says, “We’re going to engage in the marital act, but we are going to thwart it so that we can still have our cake and eat it too.” With NFP used to avoid pregnancy, the couple does not engage in the marital act at all. That is a HUGE difference.

 

[mrs_ahs]

I converted from protestantantism to Catholicism, but what disgusts me is to see how easily and readily Catholics will re-interpret teachings to suit their own minds…

Amazing, isn’t it?

It bothers me to see how people don’t think stopping sex during fertile periods isn’t birth control, and birth control is sinful.

Stopping sex? Do you mean abstinence? Abstinence is sinful? When you are fertile, are you having sex 24 hours a day? Twice a day? Every day? At least once during the fertile period? What is the minimum required? Do you see how ridiculous this gets?

We aren’t supposed to withhold ourselves from our spouses, or else what is the point in marrying?

What is the point in marrying if we are not constantly having sex? Is that what you are asking? I am really not following you. And in regards to “withholding” oneself from one’s spouse, presumably you do it every day for most of the day. I know I do, and we’ve managed to remain happily married for 8 years. Presumably those avoiding with NFP are in agreement. No spouse can demand sex of their spouse. If I am not ready to conceive and my spouse demands sex from me, I am certainly NOT required to acquiesce. And I’m not sure how long you have been married but there is a LOT more to marriage than sex.

I agree with lizzie in stating that the Church has never defined “grave” reasons. I keep hearing about these “grave reasons” yet no one can really define what they are!

That is correct! The Church, in her wisdom, has been vague on these reasons on purpose. That’s because they are left up to each couple. If the Church said, “the wife wanting to lose weight is not a reason to avoid pregnancy,” well, I might weigh 450 lbs. and have diabetes and be on 16 medications because of it, one of which might cause harm to an unborn baby. Whereas you might be a size 6 and want to be a 4 before getting pregnant. Not the same thing obviously, and ther are a gazillion scenarios, and the list would have to be 80,000 miles long to cover even half the situations that might come up. It just wouldn’t work.

For all we know, grave reasons could be because couple A wants to travel the world first before having a child (heard that before) or because couple B want to get 2 master’s degrees (heard that before). I’ve heard even worse, and not a single reason was justifiable.?

Justifiable according to whom? How many NFP couples do you know? Because I know literally hundreds and I have never heard of such a thing (traveling the world first) from an NFP couple. What business of yours is it if they want to get master’s degrees? And how have you determined that it was not justifiable?

Only in one instance in the past few years have I heard anything close. A friend of mine nearly died from organ failure, so she and her husband refrained during her healing. ?

I’m sure they appreciate having your stamp of approval.

Nowhere did I say women are supposed to be incubators and have endless amounts of children. Women didn’t even historically have endless amounts of children. Breastfeeding serves as a natural pregnancy-inhibitor and helped space births for women, and pregnancy served as a birthing spacer. For some reason people have this idea in their minds that if birth control isn’t used, a woman will have 10 kids automatically and always die. A lot of women nowadays can’t even get pregnant that easily, and the max I’ve seen is about 6 or so.

Wow, it’s so nice that you know all about this stuff. My fertility returns at 9 months pp when I am not using bottles of pumped milk to go to work to supplement our income (which I imagine you also disagree with) and at 6 months pp when I am. I have never given any of my babies a single ounce of formula. I first became pregnant at 24 and average age of menopause in my family is 50. You can do the math on that one. I have several friends and family members who also breastfeed exclusively and have a return before 3 months. I also know several NFP families with 8+ kids. When your fourth baby is 3 months old and you are sleeping 2 hours per night and homeschooling, which I am assuming you will do, let me know if you’re ready to get pregnant again. Don’t forget, you might spend the first 3 months (or more) vomiting constantly and unable to care for your other children or offer your husband sex twice a day.

 

[EasterJoy]

…I do think it is an awfully harsh position the OP is taking that almost no one has good reason to know their cycle and space out their children…
Nobody says you have to use it, but we shouldnt all be judged as trying to get another degree or go on vacation or have a small family. It is really insulting.

The truth is, there is no one who ought to be judging parents on this, and the Church is quite clear about that. This is what the Church decreed in Gaudium et Spes, the Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World (boldface mine, obviously):
Parents should regard as their proper mission the task of transmitting human life and educating those to whom it has been transmitted. They should realize that they are thereby cooperators with the love of God the Creator, and are, so to speak, the interpreters of that love. Thus they will fulfill their task with human and Christian responsibility, and, with docile reverence toward God, will make decisions by common counsel and effort. Let them thoughtfully take into account both their own welfare and that of their children, those already born and those which the future may bring. For this accounting they need to reckon with both the material and the spiritual conditions of the times as well as of their state in life. Finally, they should consult the interests of the family group, of temporal society, and of the Church herself. The parents themselves and no one else should ultimately make this judgment in the sight of God. But in their manner of acting, spouses should be aware that they cannot proceed arbitrarily, but must always be governed according to a conscience dutifully conformed to the divine law itself, and should be submissive toward the Church’s teaching office, which authentically interprets that law in the light of the Gospel.

Notice that there is a lot of guidance there for parents, and yet also a specific direction by the Church that this discernment is to be made by the parents and–as the Church chose to word it–“no one else should ultimately make this judgment in the sight of God.”

This is what the Pope and the bishops said as a body, and as Our Lord put it: “Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Matt. 18:18 So let us who wish to follow our consciences on this feel truly and specifically bound to refrain from judging any married couple except the one we are in, in which we should feel the greatest duty to be faithful to our duties before God.

 

[mrs_ahs]

Really, does anyone who wants to postpone a pregnancy because they want to buy a Porche or because they are sick of having baby stuff around the house going to even bother with NFP? I do not think so. Selfish people who don’t value family just go straight for the BC.

Yep. We use NFP, have had 4 kids in 6 years, and have never even been on a vacation that my husband’s job didn’t pay for so he could go to a training. Our cars are both 13 years old and we are debt free (except for our house) because we live so frugally. Kids’ clothes? Garage sales and hand-me-downs. We’re just so selfish.

 

[CountrySinger]

Yep. We use NFP, have had 4 kids in 6 years, and have never even been on a vacation that my husband’s job didn’t pay for so he could go to a training. Our cars are both 13 years old and we are debt free (except for our house) because we live so frugally. Kids’ clothes? Garage sales and hand-me-downs. We’re just so selfish.

Kids clothes? Pfffffffft. Just cover them in Teflon (the stains just slide off) and duct tape. If you can afford clothes, you need to have more babies. Pass on the jeans, so you can pass on your genes. .

I’m being sarcastic. I’m a childless married woman using NFP to avoid (serious health reasons). And I get a ton of garbage from people because I don’t have kids yet.

 

[dixieagle]

OP, I am a convert to Catholicism from Evangelical Protestantism.

I’m going to say something that might be hard for you to hear.

You say that you are “more traditional than the typical Catholic.”

What I see is that you are more Protestant than the typical Catholic.

You are making up your own mind about an issue instead of trusting and obeying Holy Mother Church. That’s the essence of Protestantism.

You need to submit to Holy Mother Church in this issue, and stop trying to impose your own personal beliefs on Holy Mother Church.

The Catholic Church does not teach that you MUST practice NFP and chart, abstain, space children, etc.

But the Catholic Church DOES teach that NFP is acceptable.

Telling others that NFP is “sinful” is a rebellion or “protest” against the Church–in other words, “Protestantism.”

Think about what I have said, and I hope it is helpful to you and others.

Excellent!

One of my pet peeves is “more Catholic than the Pope” folks who either have been poorly catechized and are thus ignorant of what, and why, the Church teaches what it does, or have decided that they know better than the Magisterium.

 

[dixieagle]

Living the middle/upper middle class American lifestyle is not reason enough to thwart the primary end of marriage, procreation of children. Given the importance of abiding by the natural and Divine precept of procreation in marriage, the reasons for departing from this grave obligation must themselves be weighty, i.e., extreme poverty or serious health issues of the woman related to many pregnancies occurring in close succession.

Simply. Not. True.

Regarding married couples: “Let them thoughtfully take into account both their own welfare and that of their children, those already born and those which may be foreseen. For this accounting they will reckon with both the material and the spiritual conditions of the times as well as of their state in life. Finally, they will consult the interests of the family group, of temporal society, and of the Church itself” (Gaudium et Spes, 50).

It is not up to us to attempt to impose stricter rules on the faithful than the Church herself does. Catholics are not members of the Quiverfull movement and that mindset is NOT what the Church teaches.