I'm still agonising over my conflict with doctrine

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LostSheepUK

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Taking the advice of several people on this (and other less friendly forums which I have now stopped using), I have prayed to God and examined my conflicting emotions closely - but I still feel lost and far away from God’s grace. I came back online today in the hope of finding some “divine guidance” yet I ended up reading a heartfelt and distressing question by a lady in torment.

On a previous thread, this brave woman expressed her guilt over having two abortions and was told by an Apologist that God would forgive her if she confessed her sins. Reading her post filled me with sorrow and I felt her pain, I spent five minutes on my own praying for her and the souls of the children now departed.

In no way am I being confrontational or hijacking her, but I have previously expressed my state of confusion and worry over a belief that I have on this subject - and one that many cradle catholics on this forum have told me is not a conducive point of belief to have if I wish to join the Church. I personally would not condemn a woman for having an abortion if the pregnancy was a result of sexual abuse, incest or rape.

So, why is it that a cradle catholic is forgiven for past sins and made to feel welcome in the Church but a person like myself who opposes abortion in 99.9% of cases is not?

I am not being confrontational or trying to hurt anyone, I just want to understand. I pray daily for God to show me the way and I have been genuinely distressed and upset and confused over this subject, especially as I have been touched personally by this subject - which is why I am so torn.

If there is anyone who could help me put my mind at rest I would be so grateful!

God Bless,

Stuart
 
Lost
**
So, why is it that a cradle catholic is forgiven for past sins and made to feel welcome in the Church but a person like myself who opposes abortion in 99.9% of cases is not?**

I think everyone is welcome in the Church. But there are conditions. One of these conditions is that we accept the teachings of the Church. We don’t get to put our thoughts or feelings higher than those that are taught by the Church. Yes, we can agonize, but in the end we must submit.

Many non-Catholics have joined the Church thinking they can keep their old habits of disagreeing with the Church. Disagreement is allowed in some areas, but not in matters of settled doctrine.

As the great theologian Thomas Aquinas put it on his deathbed.

“Thee have I preached; Thee have I taught. Never have I said anything against Thee. If anything was not well said, that is to be attributed to my ignorance. Neither do I wish to be obstinate in my opinions, but if I have written anything erroneous … I submit all to the judgment and correction of the Holy Roman Church, in whose obedience I now pass from this life.”
 
I’m in RCIA as well. I’ve encountered this on some things the Church teaches, and have amended my opinions. I know it can seem difficult at first, it seems like you are denying what is obviously true or right. But once I realized how it all works, it became easy.

As far as abortion goes, the pain that a woman goes through in a case of rape or incest is unbearable, and I can’t hope to understand it. But that that is not the whole story. It’s easy to see her pain, or to hear her describe it. Inside her, however, is a human being who we cannot see, and who can be forgotten in the rush to help the one who was hurt first. But that human being is innocent of any wrongdoing, had no choice in the matter, and is made in the image of God. To put the life of the mother above the life of the baby is wrong. It is murdering an innocent life for the wrong of another, or for the convenience of the mother. You can’t defend that without justifying the murder of an innocent person.

The woman who has an abortion and goes to Confession is recognizing that she has done wrong. One who defends the practice of abortion is not repenting of an evil practice. If they go to Confession and try to receive absolution without vowing to change their ways, I think (may be wrong) some priests may not absolve them. And really, why should they? If someone goes to Confession and says “Father, I beat my wife today, and I need to be absolved of it before Sunday, then Monday I’ll beat her again,” why on earth should he receive absolution?

Once you become reconciled to the Church’s doctrine, I think you’ll experience more peace. I know I did.
 
One must presently accept the Church’s teaching. Past actions can be forgiven but they must not be continually committed.
 
A child does not deserve to be murdered because of the circumstances regarding their conception. Would you feel it is right for a woman to murder a child that was already born, because the child’s father raped her? I’m assuming not. You may not feel that you can “condemn” a woman in such a stressful situation. You needen’t worry about that because only God can condemn people anyway. All you have to do is accept that objectively speaking, the act of killing an innocent child is wrong, sinful, and evil. The mother’s culpabiliy for committing this act isn’t within your power to judge. You are certainly right to feel compassion for her, as she might be under terrible distress when she committed this act, but that doesn’t make the act less wrong. I hope that helps.
 
Perhaps we can get some clarity if we split some hairs here.

You say that you would not blame someone if they had such an abortion.
Does this mean that you think that abortion is justified (in this situation), or is it more of a case that you can empathize with the woman in such a case and see why she would choose to do this thing.

The split here is mean to determine if really hold an erroneous belief (abortion is justified in certain circumstances) or if you simply have very great empathy for the woman who was victimized and under great stress…and so can understand why a woman might make such a choice (even if the object of the choice is wrong).

Peace
James
 
Any woman who has been a victim of a sexual crime carries within her the guilt and shame of that violation. She shouldn’t feel that way, because she was the victim, but still, she does. Something very precious has been stolen from her. That, on it’s own is a huge burden for a victim.

Killing another person, which is what abortion is, carries with it a huge burden of guilt and shame. Even when killing is justified, such as in war, or a police officer in the course of their job, the guilt of taking a life is very real.

When a woman has an abortion, even under the circumstances of rape and incest, she is unknowingly, and often unwittingly, adding one huge burden of guilt and shame on top of another.

Instead of seeing it as “okay” for abortion to happen under those circumstances, we should seek the healing of the victim, body, mind and soul and not encourage them or make available to them something that will only increase their already existing pain. Taking another human life always leaves scars. Always. And yes, absolution will wipe away the sin. But letting go of the natural human guilt is much, much harder.
Kris
 
LostSheepUK said:
Taking the advice of several people on this (and other less friendly forums which I have now stopped using), I have prayed to God and examined my conflicting emotions closely - but I still feel lost and far away from God’s grace. I came back online today in the hope of finding some “divine guidance” yet I ended up reading a heartfelt and distressing question by a lady in torment.

On a previous thread, this brave woman expressed her guilt over having two abortions and was told by an Apologist that God would forgive her if she confessed her sins. Reading her post filled me with sorrow and I felt her pain, I spent five minutes on my own praying for her and the souls of the children now departed.

In no way am I being confrontational or hijacking her, but I have previously expressed my state of confusion and worry over a belief that I have on this subject - and one that many cradle catholics on this forum have told me is not a conducive point of belief to have if I wish to join the Church. I personally would not condemn a woman for having an abortion if the pregnancy was a result of sexual abuse, incest or rape.

So, why is it that a cradle catholic is forgiven for past sins and made to feel welcome in the Church but a person like myself who opposes abortion in 99.9% of cases is not?
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I’m not trying to be confrontational either, but I think a concise (well, as concise as I get) answer might be most helpful. Forgive me if it comes across as attacking you, it’s not meant to.

In short, she is being forgiven for doing something that was wrong, after she recognizes that it was wrong, repents, and seeks God’s forgiveness. Any sin can be forgiven once it’s over and done with if the sinner recognizes that it was a sin and truly repents.

On the other hand, you are perpetuating in a belief which is incorrect (if I correctly read that you think that it’s ok for a woman to get an abortion - to kill her child - if she was raped). Which is not to say that you’re not welcome - we’d love to have you. You just currently hold beliefs which are contrary to what the Church teaches, which would make it problematic for you to stand up and say that you believe that what the Church teaches is correct.
 
LostSheepUK said:
Taking the advice of several people on this (and other less friendly forums which I have now stopped using), I have prayed to God and examined my conflicting emotions closely - but I still feel lost and far away from God’s grace. I came back online today in the hope of finding some “divine guidance” yet I ended up reading a heartfelt and distressing question by a lady in torment.

On a previous thread, this brave woman expressed her guilt over having two abortions and was told by an Apologist that God would forgive her if she confessed her sins. Reading her post filled me with sorrow and I felt her pain, I spent five minutes on my own praying for her and the souls of the children now departed.

In no way am I being confrontational or hijacking her, but I have previously expressed my state of confusion and worry over a belief that I have on this subject - and one that many cradle catholics on this forum have told me is not a conducive point of belief to have if I wish to join the Church. I personally would not condemn a woman for having an abortion if the pregnancy was a result of sexual abuse, incest or rape.

So, why is it that a cradle catholic is forgiven for past sins and made to feel welcome in the Church but a person like myself who opposes abortion in 99.9% of cases is not?

I am not being confrontational or trying to hurt anyone, I just want to understand. I pray daily for God to show me the way and I have been genuinely distressed and upset and confused over this subject, especially as I have been touched personally by this subject - which is why I am so torn.

If there is anyone who could help me put my mind at rest I would be so grateful!

God Bless,

Stuart
Click to expand...
Small but true story: There was a family with fourteen children. Each of these children had serious problems: birth defects, illness, disease, etc. (don’t know the exact nature of each but I do know this is true and most likely some of those children died of these conditions). The woman got pregnant a fifteenth time. Now, with all the horror that had befallen her and her husband (there is nothing in this world worse than losing a child or having a child that is suffering), one might think it cruel to subject this fifteenth to a life of horror. That fifteenth child was Ludwig von Beethoven.

We simply don’t know what God’s plan is when he forms us in “the secret place”, but there is one. Even a child conceived in incest or rape is a creation of God: this does not happen by “accident”, God is in charge of life (and should be in charge of death, although it seems this is not always so). Would God allow conception because of our “free will” - that, I think, is the actual question. Apparently, not only would He, He does. Can we conceive WITHOUT God’s authority, based only upon our free will? – those outside of marriage, those tormented in incestuous relationships and traumatized (for a lifetime) by rape (even violent rape), etc. I doubt it very much because It is God who allows conception (creates life, it has yet to be done in any form in any scientific community), otherwise the creation of Human life would be an act of FREE WILL and would not involve God. This is just my opinion but I have given this considerable thought. I think it all comes down to two things: trust and obedience. Both are quite difficult and, essentially, the crux of the matter of life: trusting God, being obedient to His will.
 
Recently I saw a young man on television who was conceived in rape. I wish I could remember his name. He is now 21 years old and is a very active spokesperson for the pro-life movement. His story is a very compelling witness of why abortion is never the right solution. He spoke beautifully about how grateful he is to have been given life by a wonderful mother who, in the face of a terrible victimization, believed that whatever the circumstances of conception, the life within her was of God.
 
I feel for you and your distress. I was were you are when I was going through RCIA. By the grace of God, I met a woman and her child who was conceived in rape. That child looked just like the mother. He was the sweetest, kindest child that I had met. When the mom talked to me about it, I was amazed. She was a cradle Catholic that just knew that abortion was wrong. She had an awful pregnancy, but as soon as they placed her child in her arms, she fell in love with him. That is the moment that I became fully pro-life. I looked at that boy and thought, “I would have been ok with him being killed. Something is just so wrong with that.” I remember it clearly to this day even though it has been almost 20 years since it happened. Just remember that it isn’t a “clump of cells” or “tissues”. It is a human being at it’s youngest stages of life.

I hope my experience helps you to understand. I will pray that you come to some peace about this.
 
The forgiveness comes through penitence and contrition. In other words, it comes through acknowledging the act was wrong and feeling genuine remorse for it. Supporting abortion, regardless of the situation, is an entirely different thing. You can’t really take one person’s remorse and subsequent forgiveness for their sin and use it to support your opinions… it doesn’t work that way. You are comparing apples to oranges. 🙂

Keep in mind, even in the situations you described: why is the child to blame? What benefit comes from murdering the child? It does not undo the torment the woman has already suffered-it adds to it. Who was once a victim becomes the aggressor against an innocent life. It benefits nobody.
 
Okaaay…so (leaving the ordained/holy thing aside) why is it different to be forgiven something that HAS happened, yet I am “wrong” for forgiving something that MIGHT happen?

I suppose what i am trying to say is that I believe the subject should be between the woman concerned and God. Personally, I would prefer not to have any opinions on things of this awful and emotive nature but I have no choice.
 
Lost

**I suppose what i am trying to say is that I believe the subject should be between the woman concerned and God. **

The Catholic Church is God’s voice on earth. Don’t, for God’s sake, don’t become a cafeteria Catholic! :eek:
 
LostSheepUK said:
Okaaay…so (leaving the ordained/holy thing aside) why is it different to be forgiven something that HAS happened, yet I am “wrong” for forgiving something that MIGHT happen?

I suppose what i am trying to say is that I believe the subject should be between the woman concerned and God. Personally, I would prefer not to have any opinions on things of this awful and emotive nature but I have no choice.
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In our neighborhood, there was a woman who found out that her husband was probably going to go to jail for mismanagement of funds at his job and that their home was in forclosure. Not wanting her little daughters to have to deal with the upcoming uncertainty, she took them into the woods and shot them dead. Should that have been between her and God?

A person who repents having an abortion or committing any other sin can be forgiven. What you are suggesting is not forgiveness, but claiming that no evil took place in the first place. If you came home and found your house to be robbed, it would be very different to say, “I forgive the person who stole my things.” from saying, “The person who took my things did nothing wrong, so I’m not upset.” You are contending the latter, that a person who has an abortion is doing the right thing. The Church is stating the former, that the person who committed the crime can be granted absolution, on the condition that she is repentant.
 
JRKH said:
Perhaps we can get some clarity if we split some hairs here.

You say that you would not blame someone if they had such an abortion.
Does this mean that you think that abortion is justified (in this situation), or is it more of a case that you can empathize with the woman in such a case and see why she would choose to do this thing.

The split here is mean to determine if really hold an erroneous belief (abortion is justified in certain circumstances) or if you simply have very great empathy for the woman who was victimized and under great stress…and so can understand why a woman might make such a choice (even if the object of the choice is wrong).

Peace
James
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James! You have put into words exactly what I wanted to say! (And I am a writer - how ironic is that???)

“The split here is mean to determine if really hold an erroneous belief (abortion is justified in certain circumstances) ***or if you simply have very great empathy for the woman who was victimized and under great stress…and so can understand why a woman might make such a choice ***”

This is what I meant by not judging her for making a terrible decision. I would never say it was wrong for her to do it because I don’t feel it is my right to do that - only God can do that. So can I stop worrying about this now? It really has been keeping me awake at night!

This is exactly how I feel about the situation I describe - wow, thank you James for putting into words something I have been unable to do. So can I stop worrying about this now? It really has been keeping me awake at night!
 
LostSheepUK said:
Okaaay…so (leaving the ordained/holy thing aside) why is it different to be forgiven something that HAS happened, yet I am “wrong” for forgiving something that MIGHT happen?
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Not at all. I think it laudable that you take this attitude.
This is part of why I asked you the question earlier…
This seems to indicate that you believe abortion to be wrong and that you would never promote or encourage someone to have an abortion - not even in the case of rape…
Yet you feel a great empathy for those who find themselves in such a horrible situation.

If I am correct in my assumption - I don’t think that there is any reason for you to stay out of full communion with the Church.
I suppose what i am trying to say is that I believe the subject should be between the woman concerned and God. Personally, I would prefer not to have any opinions on things of this awful and emotive nature but I have no choice.
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Ultimately - all things ARE between God and the individual. What the Church does is to provide guidance and instruction. Her teachings are sound and compassionate and loving. But ultimately our decisions - and the consequences - are a matter between an individual and God.

Peace
James
 
LostSheepUK said:
Taking the advice of several people on this (and other less friendly forums which I have now stopped using), I have prayed to God and examined my conflicting emotions closely - but I still feel lost and far away from God’s grace. I came back online today in the hope of finding some “divine guidance” yet I ended up reading a heartfelt and distressing question by a lady in torment.

On a previous thread, this brave woman expressed her guilt over having two abortions and was told by an Apologist that God would forgive her if she confessed her sins. Reading her post filled me with sorrow and I felt her pain, I spent five minutes on my own praying for her and the souls of the children now departed.

In no way am I being confrontational or hijacking her, but I have previously expressed my state of confusion and worry over a belief that I have on this subject - and one that many cradle catholics on this forum have told me is not a conducive point of belief to have if I wish to join the Church. I personally would not condemn a woman for having an abortion if the pregnancy was a result of sexual abuse, incest or rape.

So, why is it that a cradle catholic is forgiven for past sins and made to feel welcome in the Church but a person like myself who opposes abortion in 99.9% of cases is not?

I am not being confrontational or trying to hurt anyone, I just want to understand. I pray daily for God to show me the way and I have been genuinely distressed and upset and confused over this subject, especially as I have been touched personally by this subject - which is why I am so torn.

If there is anyone who could help me put my mind at rest I would be so grateful!

God Bless,

Stuart
Click to expand...
It’s the difference between doctrinal position (public teaching) and pastoral care (private and relational).

The Church would obviously forgive anyone who had an abortion after a rape if she went to confession.

What the Church cannot accept though is the statement that it’s OK to have an abortion after rape. It’s not OK. It is forgivable.

Perhaps you could accept this position or a similar for yourself: I understand why a woman would have an abortion after a rape. I might even feel that I would have an abortion after being raped myself. I also understand why the Church teaches that abortion is wrong. I also understand that the Church would forgive any woman who confessed to an abortion after a rape.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Lost

**I suppose what i am trying to say is that I believe the subject should be between the woman concerned and God. **

The Catholic Church is God’s voice on earth. Don’t, for God’s sake, don’t become a cafeteria Catholic! :eek:
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Lol - I have no idea what a cafeteria catholic is but I will try not to become one.

I am really trying to come to terms with what God has taught us, but after 40 years of being a non-believer and (to my shame) a vehement anti-Catholic in my youth, reconciling my new found faith and building it into my life is challenging to say the least.

Thank you - and thanks to everyone for helping contribute to this discussion and helping me find my way forward.
 
Thanks for making this post. Please continue on your journey to join the church. So many people think they have to be perfect for God to love them or the church to accept them. While God tells us he loves us and wants us in communities with other believers. Stop worrying and start moving toward your local parish!
 
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