I'm still confused

[dcs]

petra:

I read the Just War Doctrine last night, and the War in Iraq meets the requirements.

It doesn’t even meet the first requirement, that it be conducted by legitimate authority.

I don’t understand how you can say that. This was previously one of the most closed, opressive societies on earth.

If Iraqi society was closed and oppressed, the reason was the economic sanctions imposed by the U.S. The solution to a mistake is not to make a series of new mistakes.

 

[dcs]

Silmarillion:

I’d go even a step further than that and say that by definition, a pope can NOT speak infallibly on the prudential judgement regarding application of Just War Doctrine. Just War Doctrine is the ‘faith and morals’ area (and he can speak infallibly on that topic), the particular applications of Just War Doctrine are not (and he can only offer one of many opinions).

It does not follow that the Pope’s opinion is not authoritative. There is no equal or higher authority in this case to which you can appeal.

 

[Southernrich]

Ellen:

My daughter’s religion teacher claims there has never been a just war-not even WWII-even though we were attacked by the Japanese on our own soil, and we were trying to stop Hitler from slaughtering millions of innocent people. That’s obviously ridiculous. The death penalty, despite what some anti-life politicians like to claim, is also not a matter of infallibility-the Pope just believes that in today’s society it’s rarely, if ever, needed to protect society. But you can be a Catholic in good standing and still support it, as well as the war in Iraq.

Ellen

There are more criteria to a just war than being the party attacked. Just because Japan started the war would not have been justification for using the atomic bomb, for example. Also, we were NOT trying to stop Hitler from slaughtering millions of innocents. We went to war because Hitler declared war on the United States.

Your daughter’s teacher is not entirely incorrect. The bombing campaigns in the Pacific (destroying Tokyo, which was a population center not a manufacturing center), similar tactics in Europe (the totally unnecessary bombing of Dresden, which was full of refugees), the unnecessarily destructive tactics of the Red Army in the East, and the wholesale relocation of entire populations of Germans are just a few examples of the Allies not fulfilling the requirements of a just war. The ends don’t justify the means, and though the Allied victory was necessary, it doesn’t follow that the conduct of the war was always or even mostly just, per the Just War criteria.

 

[SteveG]

dcs:

It does not follow that the Pope’s opinion is not authoritative. There is no equal or higher authority in this case to which you can appeal.

dcs.
Read this article…
catholic.com/library/Just_war_Doctrine_1.asp
…It’s simply not within his authority to rule infallibly on an ACTUAL application of the just war doctrine. His purview is the doctrine itself, not the application. Catholic teacing is clearly that the decision rests in the hands of the governments involved to apply the doctrine and need NOT appeal to the pope’s judgement here.

 

[Alex_C]

Hi everyone and God Bless. I am new here, so please forgive the rather elementary question, but how is a human man, who is not Jesus Christ, able to be considered infallible? The Bible says “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.” Romans 3:23. Any questions, or comments, shoot me an email or post on the forum. God Bless.

 

[Silvereel]

Very simple mate. While Christ was on Earth he made St. Peter the leader of the disciples, by calling him ‘rock’ and saying ‘on this rock I will build my Church’. He also promised that the Church would never fall. Peter’s name is often mentioned first among the Apostles, and he often speaks for them. He is mentioned more times than any other apostle. Peter later went to Rome and became Bishop there, and his succesors (we have a list of them) carried on his posistion as leader of the Church. While Peter may or may not have been called Pope, he was the Bishop of Rome and leader of the Church, as is his successor Pope Benedict.
Now, how could he be infalible? Simple. Christ is still with us and we need only have faith in Him. He protects the Pope from leading His Church - the Catholic Church - into error.

 

[Alex_C]

Very simple mate. While Christ was on Earth he made St. Peter the leader of the disciples, by calling him ‘rock’ and saying ‘on this rock I will build my Church’. He also promised that the Church would never fall. Peter’s name is often mentioned first among the Apostles, and he often speaks for them. He is mentioned more times than any other apostle. Peter later went to Rome and became Bishop there, and his succesors (we have a list of them) carried on his posistion as leader of the Church. While Peter may or may not have been called Pope, he was the Bishop of Rome and leader of the Church, as is his successor Pope Benedict.
Now, how could he be infalible? Simple. Christ is still with us and we need only have faith in Him. He protects the Pope from leading His Church - the Catholic Church - into error.

Hello and God Bless you. First of all, thank you for your explanation. I have never been told that before. If you recall Peter had a very rough beginning, as an apostle. But, such is the grace of Jesus that Peter became that stalwart rock. As I understand it, it is primarily a Catholic belief that Peter was the “leader” of the apostles. That being said, do you happen to know about the Pope’s leadership during the “rough spots” in Catholic church history? (ex.- Inquisition, Selling of leadership positions in the church during the Middle ages, and the recent scandals) If the Pope is infallible, and Jesus protects him from leading the church into error, how could this happen? Please help.

 

[Silvereel]

A Pope’s personal life has nothing to do with his infalibility. The medieval Popes in particular had some rather unscrupulous men in their ranks, but there were of course many good ones, too. The Medici family had a sort of monopoly on the Papacy at one point, and one of them became a cardinal at age 10 and Pope at 20
However,a Pope can still make mistakes and do bad things in his personal life and not harm his infalibility. Only official Church documents and teachings issued by the Pope are considered infalible, not just anything he says. Even the Apostles had a traitor amongst them, but this doesn’t change Jesus’ message, does it?
Alot can be said about the Inqusistion, and if you want to hear a Catholic perspective you can find it on this forum or by looking at Catholic Answer’s tracts on the matter.
Sorry for the long time answering, also.

 

[Alex_C]

Thanks for the answer Silvereel. I never thought of it like that.

 

[Philthy]

I still don’t understand the infalliability of the Pope…

Is his infalliability limited only, when he exercises his office or not?
Infallibility is more accurately thought of as residing with the office of papacy rather than the person who occupies the office. And the exercise of infallibility is limited to only 2 very specific situations. Check this out from the Library section of the FAITH tab on the top of this page:

catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp

 

[Silvereel]

I think the weakness of some Popes actually only strengthens the claim of the Church to be that of God… the Church over the last 2,000 years, from the very start, has had much more than its fair share of controversy and misdeeds. Yet it’s survived, through more than a human institution could.

 

[Silvereel]

Sorry to double post, but I just want to say… you need to watch out whenever you see a ‘Papal contradiction’. Lots of people out there, either being misled or just mean spirited, are willing to twist the truth and even lie to make the Church and its teachings seem untrue. These contradictions will turn out to be not under the dogma of infalibility, downright false or misunderstandings.
There are many Catholics who know their Church history alot better than I, and know their Popes and their teachings better than I, and they will tell you that the Pope IS protected by the Holy Spirit, and is infalible. They, knowing their history and doctrine so well, wouldn’t believe this if they didn’t see the proof