I'm stumped when it comes to the Trinity

[scapularkid8]

Sometimes I think I grasp it, but other times (like now!) I just don’t. I feel like I’m worshiping three gods…but I’m not. What difference does it make if I pray to God the Father or Jesus or the Spirit? And why do I have to choose between Three Persons? What confuses me is why there is a Trinity in the first place and how Christ fits into the whole thing if He was Fully Man…does that mean I’m praying to and worshiping a human being in Heaven? And how does the Trinity all fit together? I’ve seen the typical “Non est/Est” Trinity diagram countless times, but I still don’t get it. That’s great that the Father isn’t the Son but they’re both still God…but what doest that even mean?!
I’m not trying to be disrespectful, I’m just bringing honest questions forward.

 

[meh56]

As i child i was taught this way about the Trinity

Look at the formula H20…it is water when it is liquid…ice when frozed.steam when it is boiling…IT IS STILL H2O

The church in the east explain to their children with the Easter Egg…you have the shell, the white, and the yoke…it is still an egg

 

[Matthias123]

Don’t feel bad. The Trinity is probably the hardest concept in Christianity to grasp.

 

[dmelosi]

Sometimes I think I grasp it, but other times (like now!) I just don’t. I feel like I’m worshiping three gods…but I’m not. What difference does it make if I pray to God the Father or Jesus or the Spirit? And why do I have to choose between Three Persons? What confuses me is why there is a Trinity in the first place and how Christ fits into the whole thing if He was Fully Man…does that mean I’m praying to and worshiping a human being in Heaven? And how does the Trinity all fit together? I’ve seen the typical “Non est/Est” Trinity diagram countless times, but I still don’t get it. That’s great that the Father isn’t the Son but they’re both still God…but what doest that even mean?!
I’m not trying to be disrespectful, I’m just bringing honest questions forward.

catholicchristians.com/faithChats.asp

Deacon John & Deacon Jim are on Catholic Answers radio. Take a look at the simple explanation on the link above.

 

[Pastor_Jim]

Sometimes I think I grasp it, but other times (like now!) I just don’t. I feel like I’m worshiping three gods…but I’m not. What difference does it make if I pray to God the Father or Jesus or the Spirit? And why do I have to choose between Three Persons?

You can pray to either the Father or to the Son. Typically, we pray to the Father through the Son, but there are plenty of Biblical examples of both being prayed to.

While you can pray to the Holy Spirit, and there are Biblical examples of that, too, I typically don’t encourage that only because, in the Bible, you always see the Holy Spirit deferring to Christ and submitting to Him and glorifying Him.

What confuses me is why there is a Trinity in the first place and how Christ fits into the whole thing if He was Fully Man…does that mean I’m praying to and worshiping a human being in Heaven?

Yes and no. It’s true that Christ was physically resurrected and retains His human nature but remember that He was God before He took on the role of a man and He is, first and foremost, God.

It’s fine to pray to Jesus if that’s what you feel led to do.

 

[yinekka]

I listened to the programme which featured Deacon John and Deacon Jim - they gave a very good explanation.

*Theology For Beginners *by Frank Sheed gives a wonderful explanation of the Trinity and *Theology and Sanity *also by Frank Sheed expands on the Trinity.

 

[Coder]

I have a saying (a priest said he likes it ) :

“The Father and the Son is the question and the Holy Spirit is the answer.”

 

[Harmony1988]

While you can pray to the Holy Spirit, and there are Biblical examples of that, too, I typically don’t encourage that only because, in the Bible, you always see the Holy Spirit deferring to Christ and submitting to Him and glorifying Him.

Doctrine of yours eh? In the Bible we also see Christ doing the same to the Father, thus we shouldn’t be praying to Christ.

What difference does it make what the Holy Spirit does in regards on who you aim your focus at whilst praying? It’s God. The Trinity, is God. So therefore your lack of encouragement is based on invalid grounds. Whilst one may pray for the spirit of fortitude and such, the human mind attributes such a thing to being ‘from the spirit’ and thus the Holy Spirit, it is still nevertheless an attribute of the wholeperson that is God, it’s just a matter of our finite understanding that has difficulty.

What you imply by discouraging him to pray to the Holy Spirit is implictly propagating a false doctrine that the Holy Spirit is somehow inferior to The Father and The Son.

 

[Pastor_Jim]

Doctrine of yours eh?

I don’t elevate it to doctrine status. I just don’t encourage it.

What difference does it make what the Holy Spirit does in regards on who you aim your focus at whilst praying?

If you want to pray to the Holy Spirit, that’s between you and the Holy Spirit.

It’s God. The Trinity, is God. So therefore your lack of encouragement is based on invalid grounds.

I disagree. I believe that there is a signifigant amount of scripture that shows that the Holy Spirit defers to the Son.

What you imply by discouraging him to pray to the Holy Spirit is implictly propagating a false doctrine that the Holy Spirit is somehow inferior to The Father and The Son.

Not even remotely what I said, but don’t let the truth stand in the way of a good strawman.

Why? Seems like you missed the bit where Jesus also deferred to the Father.

The only time Jesus deferred to the Father was in His humanity, never in His deity.

This doesn’t answer the question

Well, I’m afriad that’s as close as you’re going to get. There is nothing in scripture that says “do not pray to the Holy Spirit” so I don’t care if you want to pray to the Holy Spirit.

I’m just giving the OP some background about why we typically do not do that.

So what you are trying to say is, there is no trinity or the Holy spirit is not part of the trinity?

Were you saying that there is no Trinity or that the Son is not a part of the Trinity when you said that the Son defers to the Father?

Enlighten us on your reason as to why not to.

Why not to what?

In either case, my statement still stands.

And your strawman is still a strawman.

 

[Harmony1988]

I don’t elevate it to doctrine status. I just don’t encourage it.

Why? Seems like you missed the bit where Jesus also deferred to the Father.

If you want to pray to the Holy Spirit, that’s between you and the Holy Spirit.

This doesn’t answer the question

I disagree. I believe that there is a signifigant amount of scripture that shows that the Holy Spirit defers to the Son.

So what you are trying to say is, there is no trinity or the Holy spirit is not part of the trinity?

Not even remotely what I said, but don’t let the truth stand in the way of a good strawman.

Enlighten us on your reason as to why not to.

In either case, my statement still stands.

 

[Fergal]

Sometimes I think I grasp it, but other times (like now!) I just don’t. I feel like I’m worshiping three gods…but I’m not. What difference does it make if I pray to God the Father or Jesus or the Spirit? And why do I have to choose between Three Persons? What confuses me is why there is a Trinity in the first place and how Christ fits into the whole thing if He was Fully Man…does that mean I’m praying to and worshiping a human being in Heaven? And how does the Trinity all fit together? I’ve seen the typical “Non est/Est” Trinity diagram countless times, but I still don’t get it. That’s great that the Father isn’t the Son but they’re both still God…but what doest that even mean?!
I’m not trying to be disrespectful, I’m just bringing honest questions forward.

In relation to prayer, do remember that we pray to the Father, in the Son and through the Holy Spirit.

By praying, however, to the Father, or to the Son or to the Holy Spirit we still pray to God in exactly the same way since when we pray, the Spirit makes up whatever is lacking in our prayer through His inexpressible groanings made to the Father.

Therefore, prayer to the Son or to the Holy Spirit is still prayer by the Holy Spirit to the Father.

 

[Fergal]

Oops, I meant to add this to my answer above by editing, please forgive a second post as I pressed the wrong button.

A phrase from Psalm 147 catches me all the time in relation to the mystery of the Trinity and so i am going to give you folks an exercise to do.

Spend 5 mins contemplating this following lines from Psalm 147 and see how God enlightens you in relation to the mystery of the Holy Trinity. I can see it clearly here, I sincerely hope you can too.

"The waters are frozen at his touch; he sends for his word and it melts them: at the breath of his mouth the waters flow." - Ps. 147

 

[Harmony1988]

I don’t elevate it to doctrine status. I just don’t encourage it.

If you want to pray to the Holy Spirit, that’s between you and the Holy Spirit.

I disagree. I believe that there is a signifigant amount of scripture that shows that the Holy Spirit defers to the Son.

Not even remotely what I said, but don’t let the truth stand in the way of a good strawman.

The only time Jesus deferred to the Father was in His humanity, never in His deity.

Well, I’m afriad that’s as close as you’re going to get. There is nothing in scripture that says “do not pray to the Holy Spirit” so I don’t care if you want to pray to the Holy Spirit.

I’m just giving the OP some background about why we typically do not do that.

Were you saying that there is no Trinity or that the Son is not a part of the Trinity when you said that the Son defers to the Father?

Why not to what?

And your strawman is still a strawman.

Can you please not re-edit your post to answer? Instead…quote me, this way it’s easier to discuss. I’m not going to modify this entire post of yours quoting and unquoting the relevant bits. If responding to another person, don’t answer it by modifying the post preceding the one he already answered!

 

[Harmony1988]

Nvm I took the liberty of spending needless minutes doing extra modifications:

The only time Jesus deferred to the Father was in His humanity, never in His deity.

He nevertheless deferred to him. Jesus was both human and divine, fully. He allowed others to worship him, which is NOT a trait attributed to humans, but to divinity. (Matthew 28:9).

Well, I’m afriad that’s as close as you’re going to get. There is nothing in scripture that says “do not pray to the Holy Spirit” so I don’t care if you want to pray to the Holy Spirit.

I frankly don’t pray as much to the HS, this isn’t the point though. My point is why you discourage it. Don’t bring up the Jesus deferred only in the human form. You can’t create a dichotomy with Jesus, he was both divine and human. If he was ONLY human, when he was on earth, if he died, then he would have never resurrected. He is part of the trinity, therefore he is God and therefore he has a divinity which is attested to in scriptures (Matthew 28:9) which allows to worship him.

I’m just giving the OP some background about why we typically do not do that.

?

So what you are trying to say is, there is no trinity or the Holy spirit is not part of the trinity?
Were you saying that there is no Trinity or that the Son is not a part of the Trinity when you said that the Son defers to the Father?

Usually one would answer the question before asking another one, so as to engage in reasonable dialogue.
I believe in the trinity, and the son is a part of the trinity. The son deferring to the father does not diminish Jesus’s role and neither does it the HS and such. Now that was unnecessary, now kindly answer the question

In either case, my statement still stands.
And your strawman is still a strawman.

Incorrect, it was something known as deduction, deduced from your statements.

Philosophy 101 here we go.

 

[Pastor_Jim]

He nevertheless deferred to him. Jesus was both human and divine, fully. He allowed others to worship him, which is NOT a trait attributed to humans, but to divinity. (Matthew 28:9).

That’s pretty much what I just said.

I frankly don’t pray as much to the HS, this isn’t the point though. My point is why you discourage it.

Strawman. I didn’t discourage it. I just said I don’t encourage it.

Don’t bring up the Jesus deferred only in the human form.

Yes, by all means, let’s not bring up anything that refutes your argument.

Usually one would answer the question before asking another one, so as to engage in reasonable dialogue.
I believe in the trinity, and the son is a part of the trinity. The son deferring to the father does not diminish Jesus’s role and neither does it the HS and such. Now that was unnecessary, now kindly answer the question

Obviously, I affirm the doctrine of the Trinity (of course, the Trinity probably becomes a heresy to you once a non-Catholic states that he believes in it) and, yes, the Holy Spirit is the third person in the Triune Godhead.

I was merely pointing out your hypocrisy in implying that I was denying the Trinity when you said the same thing I did, only with Jesus substituted for the Holy Spirit.

 

[Harmony1988]

That’s pretty much what I just said.

No, you said Jesus only deferred in his human form. But in his human form he was also divine, so if this is what you really meant, how was this an argument against what I said in your preceding post?

Very odd.

Strawman. I didn’t discourage it. I just said I don’t encourage it.

How is that a strawman?

Yes, by all means, let’s not bring up anything that refutes your argument.

Oh the irony, strawman! If what I said was a strawman, this most certainly is. Refute my argument? The reason I said that was because I had already answered it earlier in the post

Obviously, I affirm the doctrine of the Trinity (of course, the Trinity probably becomes a heresy to you once a non-Catholic states that he believes in it) and, yes, the Holy Spirit is the third person in the Triune Godhead.

Strawman. Therefore with this being said I was right in what I said earlier.

I was merely pointing out your hypocrisy in implying that I was denying the Trinity when you said the same thing I did, only with Jesus substituted for the Holy Spirit.

I never said the same thing as you. You claimed that Jesus only deferred to the Father whilst he was in his human form, you used that as an argument for why you don’t encourage praying to the HS, because the HS deferred to Jesus.

Then the nailbiter came when you failed to realize Jesus was also divine when he was human therefore not really having any soundness in your argument.

 

[Pastor_Jim]

Harmony1988:

Then the nailbiter came when you failed to realize Jesus was also divine when he was human therefore not really having any soundness in your argument.

Wow. Why does it not surprise me that you would lie about what I said?

 

[Harmony1988]

Wow. Why does it not surprise me that you would lie about what I said?

Lie?

What’s happened so far is that you have gone from confusing posts, to even more confusing posts, then you disregard the rest of my statements and randomnly pull this magic trick out.

If you want to not debate/discuss/argue, say it, don’t attempt to weasel your way out by stating I lied Who do you seriously think you are fooling?

Show me where I ‘lied’

I do agree though that I read your ‘I don’t encourage’ as "I discourage’ but that was certainly not my intention, that was more my bad reading comprehension skills. But I have been pretty consistent with what I have said otherwise, now point out what I lied about.

 

[FCEGM]

Sometimes I think I grasp it, but other times (like now!) I just don’t. I feel like I’m worshiping three gods…but I’m not. What difference does it make if I pray to God the Father or Jesus or the Spirit? And why do I have to choose between Three Persons? What confuses me is why there is a Trinity in the first place and how Christ fits into the whole thing if He was Fully Man…does that mean I’m praying to and worshiping a human being in Heaven? And how does the Trinity all fit together? I’ve seen the typical “Non est/Est” Trinity diagram countless times, but I still don’t get it. That’s great that the Father isn’t the Son but they’re both still God…but what doest that even mean?!
I’m not trying to be disrespectful, I’m just bringing honest questions forward.

SK, if you haven’t already read it, please get Frank Sheed’s Theology for Beginners; his section on the Mystery of the Trinity is excellent and I think it would be helpful to you.

 

[jean8]

I listened to the programme which featured Deacon John and Deacon Jim - they gave a very good explanation.

*Theology For Beginners *by Frank Sheed gives a wonderful explanation of the Trinity and *Theology and Sanity *also by Frank Sheed expands on the Trinity.

yinekka,
An explanation of the Trinity can easily be found on the net.
This is one from the Catholic’s and one from carm.
carm.org/cut/trinity.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

God bless your search,
jean8