I'm stumped when it comes to the Trinity

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I like the “egg” analogy. I explain it this way…

I am one human being.
At the same time

I am a daughter

I am a wife

and

I am a mother

three distinct personalities but I am only one human being.

So if you talk to the mother both the daughter and the wife hear you because I am one.😉

From the

Catechism of the Catholic Church.

**2789 **
When we pray to “our” Father, we personally address the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. By doing so we do not divide the Godhead, since the Father is its “source and origin,” but rather confess that the Son is eternally begotten by him and the Holy Spirit proceeds from him. We are not confusing the persons, for we confess that our communion is with the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ, in their one Holy Spirit. The Holy Trinity is consubstantial and indivisible. When we pray to the Father, we adore and glorify him together with the Son and the Holy Spirit.

The dogma of the Holy Trinity

**253 **
The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity."83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e., by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215): "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85

**254 **
The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 “Father,” “Son,” “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.

255
The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance."89 Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship."90 "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."91

**Romans 8:26 **

In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the **Spirit Himself intercedes for us **with groanings too deep for words;

Sometimes I pray to The Holy Trinity.
 
fellowChristian said:
I like the “egg” analogy. I explain it this way…

I am one human being.
At the same time

I am a daughter

I am a wife

and

I am a mother

three distinct personalities but I am only one human being.

So if you talk to the mother both the daughter and the wife hear you because I am one.😉

Your analogy is perfect. Just as you are not three persons or people, God is not three persons or people.

But rather, Mother, Daughter, Wife is how you “manifest” yourself to those around you.

Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is how God manifests Himself to us. He is our Father in our creation, the Son because he redeemed us, and the Holy Spirit in regeneration.

When you start to take these manifestations make define them as “persons” it will get very confusing, and God is not the author of confusion, the devil is.

God Bless you Sister.
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davidv said:
No its not. Its an attempt to explain something that is not completely explainable.
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Actually, the idea that the three persons of the Godhead are merely three manifestations of one person is exactly what modalism is.

And it is heresy. You own church declared it heresy
 
Pastor_Jim said:
Actually, the idea that the three persons of the Godhead are merely three manifestations of one person is exactly what modalism is.

And it is heresy. You own church declared it heresy
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Agreed. This analogy given can certainly lead to this heresy if we ignor the rest of the teachings on the Trinity. However, the anology itself, expressed as it was, is not heresy.
 
davidv said:
Agreed. This analogy given can certainly lead to this heresy if we ignor the rest of the teachings on the Trinity. However, the anology itself, expressed as it was, is not heresy.
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Actually, her analogy is a perfect example of modalism.

Her analogy states that God is like one woman who exhibits three different roles, thus stating that God is one person who merely exhibits three different roles.

That is modalism and it is heretical. Now, she may simply be at a loss to explain something that is extremely difficult to explain, but that doesn’t make it correct, doesn’t make it any less modalism, and doesn’t make it any less heretical.
 
Rulkiewicz said:
When you start to take these manifestations make define them as “persons” it will get very confusing, and God is not the author of confusion, the devil is.

God Bless you Sister.
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It may get confusing, but the doctrine of the Trinity defines the Father, Son, and Spirit as distinct Persons, not simply different manifestations of the Godhead.

So it’s a rather dangerous analogy.

Father, Son, and Spirit are distinct Persons, but not distinct entities. They are one Being, three Persons. I recommend a reading of F.J. Sheed’s book ‘Theology for Beginners’ for a better explanation of the Trinity. Despite the title, it’s pretty comprehensive.

All analogies fail when trying to discuss the internal life of God.

Just because in human life we normally find one human being expressed as one person, doesn’t mean that this must be the case for God. He is one Being, one nature or essence, yet three Persons. Each person wholly possesses the One divine nature, which is not divided. But the Persons are not simply different manifestations or modes of being.
 
JimG said:
It may get confusing, but the doctrine of the Trinity defines the Father, Son, and Spirit as distinct Persons, not simply different manifestations of the Godhead.

So it’s a rather dangerous analogy.

Father, Son, and Spirit are distinct Persons, but not distinct entities. They are one Being, three Persons. I recommend a reading of F.J. Sheed’s book ‘Theology for Beginners’ for a better explanation of the Trinity. Despite the title, it’s pretty comprehensive.

All analogies fail when trying to discuss the internal life of God.

Just because in human life we normally find one human being expressed as one person, doesn’t mean that this must be the case for God. He is one Being, one nature or essence, yet three Persons. Each person wholly possesses the One divine nature, which is not divided. But the Persons are not simply different manifestations or modes of being.
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Hmmm, I can see what you’re saying. I think I read somewhere once about how it is so difficult for humans to understand a Trinitarian existence because according to our own nature, we’re (just like you said) one person (in my case “Tom”) with one nature ("human); every one of us. So it’s hard to imagine or understand a Being with Three Persons (Father, Son, Spirit), One Nature (God) because we don’t encounter that in nature or the world around us.
 
Greetings —
scapularkid8 said:
Sometimes I think I grasp it, but other times (like now!) I just don’t.
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Then you’re probably in the best place!

As the discussions here highlight, you can only ever approach the Trinity by analogy, but any analogy is not what the Trinity is … it’s like it, but not quite …

It’s much like St Augustine said of time, “when nobody asks me, I know what it is, when somebody asks, I don’t know!”

Remember, it is a Mystery, and it is a Revelation … but that does not mean we can understand it.

Thomas
 
With regard to the Holy Spirit …

St Irenaeus says “Through the Spirit we rise to the Son; through the Son we rise to the Father” (Against the Heretics, 5,36,2) and again “The Spirit prepares man for the Son of God; the Son leads man to the Father; the Father gives man immortality” (4,20,4)

In the Angelic Trisagion we pray:
“To Thee be praised, to Thee be glory, to Thee be thanksgiving through endless ages. O Blessed Trinity. Holy, Holy, Holy Lord God of Host: the heavens and the earth are full of Thy Glory.”
and
“With all our heart and voice, we acknowledge, we praise and we bless Thee, God the Father unbegotten: Thee the only begotten Son; Thee the Holy Spirit the Paraclete, O holy and undivided Trinity. To Thee be honor and glory forever.”

And, of course, in the doxology:
Glory be to the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit … "

The Holy Spirit is no more nor no less worthy of our praise and prayer than the Father or the Son.

Thomas
 
On the analogy in question …

… I thought the analogy was delightful, and, ah yes indeed, it is modalism, for we believe in Three Persons of one Divine nature, not three natures of one Divine Person.

The difference can be seen in the perfection of God — the Father begets the Son, and the Father is perfect, so the Son is perfect in every way the Father is perfect “All things are delivered to me by my Father” (Matthew 11:27), so the Son is God as the Father is God … and the Son knows Himself as a Person as the Father knows Himself as a Person … two people, but one and the same undivided and undifferentiated nature … the Spirit is the same, by procession … ooh, now it starts to get difficult(?).

Has anyone read St Maximus the Confessor? The Second Century on Theology treats of the unity and trinity in God (Philokalia, Vol2). It’;; have you reeling …

As my theology lecturer said, “The Trinity is a Mystery. You can know it, but if you think you understand it, you’ve got it wrong!”

Thomas
 
Turtillian (the first to use the term “trinity”) was mocked by his peers his doctrine of the Trinity. It eventually evolved to what it is today.
 
There are some things we have to accept on faith. It’s hard to understand God in human terms. We want to fit Him into a frame of reference we already know, and in this case there isn’t one. People talk about the egg, or the woman/daughter/mother or a 3 leaf clover, but none of those things really explains the Trinity. There’s nothing “human” that compares to it.

Some nun told me about the Trinity back in about 1957. It never occured to me that I could question it. I just accepted what she said as truth. It’s something we can think about and worry about and try to resolve in our own minds, or we can say OK. To me, the main thing is that the Church teaches this, God can do anything because He’s God and that’s enough. Someday I hope to get to see it for myself and then I’ll understand.

Simplistic? Probably. There are plenty of other things I don’t understand and have trouble saying OK, but not this one. I guess Sister John Leonard said You’ll never understand this was enough for me.
 
The Mysteries of our faith have been revealed, but they are not explained, nor do they cease to be Mysteries …

Peter’s confession, on which the Church is built, “Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God” was not a moment of intellectual clarity, not something that Peter worked out for himself (Peter was not big on working things out), but rather a moment of Revelation, “because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven”.

Flesh and blood cannot reveal the Mysteries of our Faith, nor can flesh and blood explain them, fully … the Spirit reveals them, and we grapple with what has been made known to us.

Think of the Incarnation … the Blessed Virgin consented to the will of God and knew that she would conceive a child … but quite how the biology of that works remains, and will always be, a Mystery.

Thomas
 
"We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, "

This “likeness” to the Holy Trinity is as close as **my little mind **can get to understanding it.

I am a mother --------------------- He is the Father

I am a daughter --------------------------- He is the Son

and

I am a wife ------------------------- He is the Holy Spirit

three distinct personalities ----------------- Three distinct persons

One human ----------------------- One God.

From the

Catechism of the Catholic Church.

2789
When we pray to “our” Father, we personally address the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. By doing so we do not divide the Godhead, since the Father is its “source and origin,” but rather confess that the Son is eternally begotten by him and the Holy Spirit proceeds from him.** We are not confusing the persons**, for we confess that our communion is with the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ, in their one Holy Spirit. The Holy Trinity is consubstantial and indivisible. When we pray to the Father, we adore and glorify him together with the Son and the Holy Spirit.

The dogma of the Holy Trinity

253
The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity."83 **The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: **"The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e., by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215): "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85

254
The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 “Father,” “Son,” “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.

255
The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both.** While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance**."89 Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship."90 "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."91

That is why I followed it with the teachings from our Catholic Faith. Thank you to those who to the time to understand my analogy.It is not heresy when you believe what God’s Church teaches and trying to put it into terms that are easier to understand. It’s a “likeness” not law relax..
 
Pastor_Jim said:
Actually, the idea that the three persons of the Godhead are merely three manifestations of one person is exactly what modalism is.

And it is heresy. You own church declared it heresy
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That is sooooooooo not what I said:shrug:

The Father is who He is. God is what He is.

The Son is who He is. God is what He is.

The Holy Spirit is who He is. God is what He is.

Three distinct persons in one God.

Just like fellowchristian is who I am. Human is what I am.

I have three distinct personalities but I am one human.

(Because a daughter doesn’t act like a wife and a mother doesn’t act like a daughter.)

Person vs. personalities

big difference.

and no I’m not like Cybil.
 
"We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, "

But the analogy of “mother / daughter / wife” is one person.
(By the same token, the H2O analogy is equally in error.)

There is not one God and three persons (which makes four) but one God in three Persons … where the one God is, the three Persons are, and where the Person is, there God is …

CCC254
“He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son.” — they are three separate people …
But in the analogy, she who is the mother is also the daughter, and she is also the wife … she is one and the same person.

The difficulty is that any analogy applies only in part, but not entirely … so we follow the analogy on this point, the little tyke’s led us into error on that point, without us even knowing … dodgey things, analogies …

Thomas
 
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