I'm very liberal, considering Catholicism.

[tuviskazinai]

This is pretty much been the case for every Obama supporter who is trying to rationalize that their vote was in-line with Catholic teaching. It is obvious the person made the decision to vote for Obama and then went to Catholic documents to try to construct an argument to defend their vote. You simply cannot read the teachings of the Church and the voluminous number of statements from bishops and the Pope himself and infer that it was licit for a Catholic to vote for BarrackObama.

You and I have both been around and around with a multitude of Obama supporters and it always comes down to their complete rejection of any church official who says something contrary to their beliefs. I really believe if they had received a certified letter from Benedict XVI saying they could not vote for Barrack Obama they would have voted for him anyway and claimed they thought the Pope was talking about another Barrack Obama.

But I do not agree with you here, though.

This saddens me. You have every right, but no real reason, to suggest that every single Obama voter is somehow a bad Catholic. I promise you that as someone who voted for Bush and has always been a Bush apologist, who has served in pro-life organizations for several years, and has immersed himself completely in the life of the Church, I came to the decision to vote for Obama after consulting the proper Church documents – and then some.

By the way, please stop using “rationalize” as an insult. What people do when they go through Church documents looking for reasoned support is good! To rationalize means to make sure that one’s argument is rational. I detect a lot of anti-intellectualism when you use that word, which is the last thing this country needs and the last thing the Church of Pope Benedict stands for.

Also, I do not reject these church officials. The matter is not black and white, as you make it sound. Just because I decided to vote in a way that they did not does not mean that I’ve rejected them. It’s too violent a word. Do you reject the African bishop whose endorsement of Obama I posted a few hours ago, or do you simply believe he is mistaken and that the bishops you are supporting have a better idea?

Finally, I think you are probably being in some measure sarcastic with your last paragraph, but if I got a letter from the Pope telling me to vote for John McCain, I would do so. I promise. That would be the end of the story. The problem is, you are taking a vague sentence in a minor speech as though it were a direct letter from the Pope. Not much different from taking his Regensburg snippet out of context.

Peace,
+AMDG+

 

[jmcrae]

Bishop Gracida disagrees with you:

Consider the case of a Catholic voter who must choose between three candidates: candidate (A, Kerry) who is completely for abortion-on-demand, candidate (B, Bush) who is in favor of very limited abortion, i.e., in favor of greatly restricting abortion and candidate (C, Peroutka), a candidate who is completely against abortion but who is universally recognized as being unelectable.

The Catholic voter cannot vote for candidate (A, Kerry) because that would be formal cooperation in the sin of abortion if that candidate were to be elected and assist in passing legislation, which would remove restrictions on, abortion-on-demand.
The Catholic can vote for candidate (C, Peroutka) but that will probably only help ensure the election of candidate (A, Kerry).
Therefore the Catholic voter has a proportionate reason to vote for candidate (B, Bush) since his vote may help to ensure the defeat of candidate (A, Kerry) and may result in the saving of some innocent human lives if candidate (B, Bush) is elected and votes for legislation restricting abortion-on-demand.

Did Bush ever actually vote for legislation restricting abortion on demand?

 

[estesbob]

Did Bush ever actually vote for legislation restricting abortion on demand?

Uh Jim the executive branch doesn’t vote on anything… He did freeze funds that had previously gone to overseas abortion providers, he signed the born alive act, he signed the partial-birth abortion act, and he vetoed fetal stem cell research and cloning bills. As governor he signed a parental consent and informed consent laws concerning abortion.

 

[Janet_S]

Did Bush ever actually vote for legislation restricting abortion on demand?

Planned Parenthood hates Bush and can’t wait for Obama to get in. That should tell you something.

plannedparenthood.org/newsroom/press-releases/planned-parenthood-criticizes-hhs-midnight-regulation-jeopardizing-patients-health-23427.htm

 

[jmcrae]

Uh Jim the executive branch doesn’t vote on anything.

So, you’re supposed to vote for Bush because, in your words, “his vote may help to ensure the defeat of candidate (A, Kerry) and may result in the saving of some innocent human lives if candidate (B, Bush) is elected and votes for legislation restricting abortion-on-demand” - but this didn’t actually happen, because Bush never had a vote on this, in the first place.

He did freeze funds that had previously gone to overseas abortion providers, he signed the born alive act, he signed the partial-birth abortion act, and he vetoed fetal stem cell research and cloning bills. As governor he signed a parental consent and informed consent laws concerning abortion.

These are all good things, of course.

 

[Janet_S]

Posted this on another thread and think it stands true here:
“Maybe I should just quit this stuff. It’s all about who has the right to judge someone else. “Hey you over there, you dirty liberal, you’re a sinner!” “Hey you over here, you’re excommunicated!” “Hey you! You’re going to roast like a fat pig on Judgment Day, and I’m going to stand and laugh!” God help us.”

As one of the “judgmental” Catholics, who tries my best to follow Church teaching, I don’t think you’ve characterized things correctly from our point of view. We have no problem with sinners, and we’re aware that we’re sinners too. Our problem is with Catholics who really don’t believe there is such a thing as sin.

 

[estesbob]

So, you’re supposed to vote for Bush because, in your words, “his vote may help to ensure the defeat of candidate (A, Kerry) and may result in the saving of some innocent human lives if candidate (B, Bush) is elected and votes for legislation restricting abortion-on-demand” - but this didn’t actually happen, because Bush never had a vote on this, in the first place.

But it did happen-his freezing of funds for international abortion providers alone saved 10s of thousands of lives.

 

[jmcrae]

So, you’re supposed to vote for Bush because, in your words, “his vote may help to ensure the defeat of candidate (A, Kerry) and may result in the saving of some innocent human lives if candidate (B, Bush) is elected and votes for legislation restricting abortion-on-demand” - but this didn’t actually happen, because Bush never had a vote on this, in the first

place. ]/quote]

But it did happen-his freezing of funds for international abortion providers alone saved 10s of thousands of lives.

Okay. So then, instead of voting for him for this vote that was never going to take place, how about voting for him because he was going to freeze funding for abortion providers?

Or would that just make too much sense?

That way, instead of looking like you’re making excuses of why Bush didn’t do what you voted for him to do, you can say, I voted for Bush to freeze abortion funding, and here, see, he did that.
[/quote]

 

[estesbob]

As one of the “judgmental” Catholics, who tries my best to follow Church teaching, I don’t think you’ve characterized things correctly from our point of view. We have no problem with sinners, and we’re aware that we’re sinners too. Our problem is with Catholics who really don’t believe there is such a thing as sin.

Actually they seem to believe the only real sin is believing there is sin. You see more venom directed at those who point out the evil of abortion than you do at those actually providing the abortions.

 

[Janet_S]

So, you’re supposed to vote for Bush because, in your words, “his vote may help to ensure the defeat of candidate (A, Kerry) and may result in the saving of some innocent human lives if candidate (B, Bush) is elected and votes for legislation restricting abortion-on-demand” - but this didn’t actually happen, because Bush never had a vote on this, in the first place.

These are all good things, of course.

It’s not only a matter of how many lives will be saved (of unborn babies), it’s also a matter of how a particular president or leader will set the tone for the culture. For example, what will be the impact of an Obama presidency on the health care system? No rights of conscience for healthcare workers. Good doctors, pharmacists and nurses will be forced to go along with the pro-abortion, pro-contraception policies of Tom Daschle and other pro-aborts or face losing their jobs. Some Catholic hospitals will be forced to close. Also, pro-aborts are notorious for tying up all foreign aid to the conditions of mandatory contraception and abortion. They agree to feed the poor, but only if they can sterilize them first.

An excellent book to read that sheds light on the conflict between Catholic belief and political reality under a pro-abortion administration is John Paul II: A Personal Portrait of the Pope and the Man by Raymond L Flynn, US Ambassador to the Vatican under the Clinton administration.

amazon.com/John-Paul-II-Personal-Portrait/dp/0312266812

And also remember, one of the evils of abortion is in killing people. The other evil of abortion is in making people killers.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Thank you. As an update…I’ve decided to convert. I’m in the process of choosing a parish so that I can start RCIA.

Thanks for the update. I did a search of your posts to find this update because I stopped reading through this thread many pages ago.

I can’t believe this thread is still going! Over 400 posts! Wow. I hope the op realizes that not all threads go on like this.

Prayers for you DOUBTFIRE as you proceed with your conversion, and welcome to the Catholic Church.

 

[D0UBTFIRE]

Thanks for the update. I did a search of your posts to find this update because I stopped reading through this thread many pages ago.

I can’t believe this thread is still going! Over 400 posts! Wow. I hope the op realizes that not all threads go on like this.

Prayers for you DOUBTFIRE as you proceed with your conversion, and welcome to the Catholic Church.

Thank you gardenswithkids!

I’m looking forward to Sunday’s like a maniac, because I’ve been church shopping.

 

[Columkille]

Hi all!

This has become a stumbling block for me. Part of me is really interested in becoming Catholic because a lot of the theology makes sense, but the other part of me is terrified of conservative clergy. I’m having a very hard time differentiating what is peoples opinions and what is the actual teaching of the Church.

I read somewhere that if a Catholic votes for a politician that is not pro-life that they are automatically excommunicated. Is that how it is?

 

[Trader]

Uh Jim the executive branch doesn’t vote on anything… He did freeze funds that had previously gone to overseas abortion providers, he signed the born alive act, he signed the partial-birth abortion act, and he vetoed fetal stem cell research and cloning bills. As governor he signed a parental consent and informed consent laws concerning abortion.

The president also appoints federal judges, who serve for life after confirmation by the senate. Would Obama have appointed someone as qualified as Chief Justice Roberts even though Roberts thought Roe v Wade was wrongly decided?

We have already seen what happens when federal judges invent a right of privacy that takes precedence over the lives of the most innocent of human beings.

 

[D0UBTFIRE]

Well, to update everyone, I’m no longer very liberal…and I’m no longer considering Catholicism. I’m converting to Catholicism!!! Will be baptized this Easter!

Ofcourse, along with Catholicism, I converted from very liberal to very conservative. (Socially is what I’m speaking of, because I’m fiscally moderate). It kinds goes hand in hand to me. Either there is no God and who cares if gays get married, let them enjoy themselves while they’re on this earth, or God exists and homosexuality is a sin and marriage is sacred. (I just used that as an example).

 

[jmcrae]

Well, to update everyone, I’m no longer very liberal…and I’m no longer considering Catholicism. I’m converting to Catholicism!!! Will be baptized this Easter!

Ofcourse, along with Catholicism, I converted from very liberal to very conservative. (Socially is what I’m speaking of, because I’m fiscally moderate). It kinds goes hand in hand to me. Either there is no God and who cares if gays get married, let them enjoy themselves while they’re on this earth, or God exists and homosexuality is a sin and marriage is sacred. (I just used that as an example).

HEY, I’m not the only one, any more!!

:extrahappy: :extrahappy: :extrahappy:

 

[the_phoenix]

Well, to update everyone, I’m no longer very liberal…and I’m no longer considering Catholicism. I’m converting to Catholicism!!! Will be baptized this Easter!

Ofcourse, along with Catholicism, I converted from very liberal to very conservative. (Socially is what I’m speaking of, because I’m fiscally moderate). It kinds goes hand in hand to me. Either there is no God and who cares if gays get married, let them enjoy themselves while they’re on this earth, or God exists and homosexuality is a sin and marriage is sacred. (I just used that as an example).

 

[Memaw]

Well, to update everyone, I’m no longer very liberal…and I’m no longer considering Catholicism. I’m converting to Catholicism!!! Will be baptized this Easter!

Ofcourse, along with Catholicism, I converted from very liberal to very conservative. (Socially is what I’m speaking of, because I’m fiscally moderate). It kinds goes hand in hand to me. Either there is no God and who cares if gays get married, let them enjoy themselves while they’re on this earth, or God exists and homosexuality is a sin and marriage is sacred. (I just used that as an example).

Congratulations Doubtfire, Welcome home!! There is a GOD and HE does care, for all of us. Great example. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Sheeniac]

Well, to update everyone, I’m no longer very liberal…and I’m no longer considering Catholicism. I’m converting to Catholicism!!! Will be baptized this Easter!

Ofcourse, along with Catholicism, I converted from very liberal to very conservative. (Socially is what I’m speaking of, because I’m fiscally moderate). It kinds goes hand in hand to me. Either there is no God and who cares if gays get married, let them enjoy themselves while they’re on this earth, or God exists and homosexuality is a sin and marriage is sacred. (I just used that as an example).

I think you have done what very few people do, and what is the hardest thing about following God- putting Him first. I was conservative to begin with, but with a strong Libertarian leaning. I still struggle with some of the teachings of the Church (and be default - God’s teaching). However - I know that if there is a conflict between my beliefs and the beliefs of our 2000 year old Church, I am probably the one who is wrong. While it’s a struggle, it isn’t emotionally hard, it’s just an effort to retrain my mind.

So as someone who was an atheist from 15 to 40, let me say WELCOME HOME!!!

 

[hellopeople]

Well, to update everyone, I’m no longer very liberal…and I’m no longer considering Catholicism. I’m converting to Catholicism!!! Will be baptized this Easter!

Ofcourse, along with Catholicism, I converted from very liberal to very conservative. (Socially is what I’m speaking of, because I’m fiscally moderate). It kinds goes hand in hand to me. Either there is no God and who cares if gays get married, let them enjoy themselves while they’re on this earth, or God exists and homosexuality is a sin and marriage is sacred. (I just used that as an example).

There is definitely a third option of God existing and not minding homosexuality that you left out.