I'm very liberal, considering Catholicism.

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just a side not to this .may i ask if say one is pro death and the other candidate would willing attack another country unjustly,iow was a war monger,but was against abortion?
The Pope specifically said that the Iraq war was somehting Catholics of good faith could disagreeon. he emahatically stated that abortion was not.

However since we were not faced with the situation you descibed it is a kind of moot question-I guess if one really thought one canidate would launch an unjust war while his opponent supported unresticted taxpayer funded abortions on demand one could just not vote.
 
The Pope specifically said that the Iraq war was somehting Catholics of good faith could disagreeon. he emahatically stated that abortion was not.

However since we were not faced with the situation you descibed it is a kind of moot question-I guess if one really thought one canidate would launch an unjust war while his opponent supported unresticted taxpayer funded abortions on demand one could just not vote.
my problem is in my country all the major political parties support abortion,so i just don’t vote then?
i have some more thoughts on this issue i’ll have to get back when i can get them into words everybody else can understand.thanks for the kind reply estesbob
 
my problem is in my country all the major political parties support abortion,so i just don’t vote then?
i have some more thoughts on this issue i’ll have to get back when i can get them into words everybody else can understand.thanks for the kind reply estesbob
Hello, fbl19:

I am having a very hard time conceiving of a candidate that is both a “war monger” and “pro-life”. Although, I suppose that we could elect some aberrated individual without any moral compass whatsoever - or, at least, a very defective one.

Anyway, if such a 6.45 billion to one occurance occured, one would have to heavily consider the rest of each candidate’s beliefs, and vote for that candidate that you belive would do the most good.

(I’ll bet I know what’s coming next!) 🤷

Merry Christmas and
God Bless,
JD
 
Hello, fbl19:

I am having a very hard time conceiving of a candidate that is both a “war monger” and “pro-life”. Although, I suppose that we could elect some aberrated individual without any moral compass whatsoever - or, at least, a very defective one.

Anyway, if such a 6.45 billion to one occurance occured, one would have to heavily consider the rest of each candidate’s beliefs, and vote for that candidate that you belive would do the most good.

(I’ll bet I know what’s coming next!) 🤷

Merry Christmas and
God Bless,
JD
There is no amount of “good” that can offset 1.2 million dead children a year. If one were confronted with the absurd scenario presented their best course would be to not vote at all.
 
There is no amount of “good” that can offset 1.2 million dead children a year. If one were confronted with the absurd scenario presented their best course would be to not vote at all.
just how many evangelics would support an all out war against the enimies of Isreal? Yet these same people would be pro-life…check out the anti-saloon league,this might give you an idea as how deep the anti-catholic senitment is buried within your own gov’t.and how deep they are in behind the scenes…it started with the prohibition.
 
just how many evangelics would support an all out war against the enimies of Isreal? Yet these same people would be pro-life…check out the anti-saloon league,this might give you an idea as how deep the anti-catholic senitment is buried within your own gov’t.and how deep they are in behind the scenes…it started with the prohibition.
None that I know of. But i dont see what this has to do with supporting pro-abortion politicians.
 
None that I know of. But i dont see what this has to do with supporting pro-abortion politicians.
abortions are commited because the people want them…war are started because the gov’t wants them not the people.(including unjust wars).
seriously you decieve your self into thinking there is no amount of evangicals (fundamentalists) that would have no qualms of warring against the enimies of Isreal.
 
abortions are commited because the people want them…war are started because the gov’t wants them not the people.(including unjust wars).
seriously you decieve your self into thinking there is no amount of evangicals (fundamentalists) that would have no qualms of warring against the enimies of Isreal.
Amen. So much of our government is under Israel’s spell, it’s scary to ponder.
 
Hello, fbl19:

I am having a very hard time conceiving of a candidate that is both a “war monger” and “pro-life”. Although, I suppose that we could elect some aberrated individual without any moral compass whatsoever - or, at least, a very defective one.

Anyway, if such a 6.45 billion to one occurance occured, one would have to heavily consider the rest of each candidate’s beliefs, and vote for that candidate that you belive would do the most good.

(I’ll bet I know what’s coming next!) 🤷

Merry Christmas and
God Bless,
JD
I have to agree. Yes, 1.2 million children die in America each year of abortion. But every year, millions more (I think the number was 10 million on average) die of a dozen other reason. Why is a six year old child dying of malaria in Tanzania, a five year old child dying from stepping on a mine in Afghanistan, a 4 year old child dying from being hit by a stray bullet or a poorly aimed bomb in Iraq, or even a 6 week old baby dying here in the states of a bad fever because her mother doesn’t have health insurance, any less of a tragedy than an unborn child dying from abortion in America?
 
I have to agree. Yes, 1.2 million children die in America each year of abortion. But every year, millions more (I think the number was 10 million on average) die of a dozen other reason. Why is a six year old child dying of malaria in Tanzania, a five year old child dying from stepping on a mine in Afghanistan, a 4 year old child dying from being hit by a stray bullet or a poorly aimed bomb in Iraq, or even a 6 week old baby dying here in the states of a bad fever because her mother doesn’t have health insurance, any less of a tragedy than an unborn child dying from abortion in America?
The difference if no one supports the latter where as one political party enthusiastically supports the former.
 
There is no amount of “good” that can offset 1.2 million dead children a year. If one were confronted with the absurd scenario presented their best course would be to not vote at all.
estesbob:

That’s not what I said. I said: vote for the candidate that would do the most good. There’s no question of any good coming from the number of abortions commited each year. But, given that abstaining from voting might prolong the tyranny, my position is that we vote for the best candidate in the absurd scenario presented. (In fact, I believe I read just that somewhere in some supporting documentation, from the Church, on the subject. I’ll try to find it and provide the documentation.)

But, a realistic look at just what we have voted for, in the past, will quickly expose the error of thinking that there is no gray area to be had. In recent decades, even the candidates who quasi-affirmed that they were pro-life, did not necessarily vote that way. And, most really did nothing but stand there and watch, not wanting to disaffect those “pro-death” voters that may have voted for him/her for other reasons.

So, we really have not had, in many years, very many commited pro-life advocates just about anywhere in the nation. That probably means that too many of us are standing there, watching, too, and not getting involved in the candidate proposal parts of the election process. That’s where we need to be; not out of the process. (Just my opinion.)

(I really am on your side!)

Merry Christmas and
God Bless,
JD
 
As are rapes, murder, theft and every other crime under the face of the sun. So what is your point?
and the laws of the gov’t are totally powerless to stop it.
my point is abortions will continue regardless of the law…
where as the law (gov’t) can and will cause an unjust war and there is not one thing the people can do to stop it from coming about.on the other side only the peolpe themselves can stop abortions by not having them.
 
The difference if no one supports the latter where as one political party enthusiastically supports the former.
No one supports abortion while one party enthusiastically supports disease and war?

Or did you mean it the other way around:confused: .
 
No one supports abortion while one party enthusiastically supports disease and war?

Or did you mean it the other way around:confused: .
I meant the other way around if you think that what you say is the other way around…
 
I fear we have sidetracked the original discussion a little, but I am going to go on a little rant in solidarity with our “liberal” OP, Doubtfire to suggest that there is a diversity of views to be had within the Church. (In case you are still reading, Doubtfire…I like the name, too!)

I had such severe problems with John McCain. In my mind, McCain was a temperamental, angry, bitter, selfish, irresponsible, untrustworthy, arrogant “warmonger” (I’ll use the word) who has happened to vote pro-life a couple of times. Barack Obama is an open-minded, intelligent, innovative, compassionate, principled peacemaker…who is agonizingly, woefully on the wrong side of the abortion question. This was such a tough election for me; Obama was perfect (in my view) except for the most important thing, and McCain was completely wrong for the job except for in the most important respect.

But McCain, let’s not forget, wanted as his Vice President either Lieberman or Graham-- both of whom are adamant pro-choicers. McCain doesn’t have a religious bone in his body and he clearly doesn’t give a hoot about the unborn (with all due respect) – his pro-life votes are for political convenience. Just watch how animated and excited he gets when he talks about liberal “socialism” or the “enemies of freedom” in his speeches, and then how a sheet suddenly passes over his face while he reads carefully off the monitor, “and all the innocent victims of abortion,” as though he were the undead. It’s so fake. You can tell where his heart is on this one.

I mean, his personal character is bankrupt. He’s the guy who has called his wife such unmentionable names in public that I flinch just thinking about them – called an African-American state congressman “boy” and refused to apologize until the guy swung at him, whereupon he decided he admired his feistiness – and I could go on…but just read “Make-Believe Maverick” in Rolling Stone. Not my favorite magazine, but it gets the point across!

And finally, he appointed the most unqualified person in history to be his running mate. I mean, with all of the issues facing the world at this crucial point, he appoints her? That was just staggering. Do you trust him, really, to do what’s right on any issue after that? The truth is, he’s bitter that he’s not the young, popular (read: adulterous, womanizing) cadet he used to be as a young man, and that the guy on the other ticket is cooler and handsomer than he is – and so he’d do anything at this point for attention.

When I applied the Beatitudes test of moral character to the two candidates – Which one is a peacemaker? Which one thirsts for justice? Which one is meek, merciful? – it was Obama, hands down, each time.

A last word on character: Obama has shown such stunning bipartisanship and moderation in his cabinet picks…has invited Rick Warren to give his inaugural blessing…and in his autobiographies has spoken from the heart on the possibility that he may be wrong about abortion. If McCain got us involved in a war with Iran (I would consider it a distinct possibility), he’d never have backed down. But I think we can pray for Obama and Biden and actually have some hope that even if they don’t strike down Roe v. Wade, they’ll be moved to take proactive steps to address the abortion rate through other measures.

There are all the other classic arguments too, of course: that Obama’s policies will more effectively bring down the abortion rate, which I kind of believe, to be truthful. I mean, let’s say McCain won. He couldn’t just wave a magic wand and save 1.2 million lives per year, like everyone likes to pretend. No, instead he’d have to fight conservative justices through a now-Democratic Congress that would oppose anyone strenuously conservative. It wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if McCain, having been elected and knowing he’d be a one-termer, let a pro-choicer through to make that part of his job easy. Like I said, I really don’t think he cares about the right to life, in my heart of hearts.

But even if a pro-lifer got elected, the Court would have to wait (how long? who knows) for the right case to come up which would turn the issue to the States…and polls show that most states would rather have the option of abortion open for them. Sad, but true. Some states would outlaw it, and people in need of abortion in those states would either cross state lines if they had the money or go to back alleys if they didn’t. But if the economy were as bad then as it is now, a lot more people would consider abortion than if they didn’t have to worry so much about a 9% unemployment rate. Clearly liberal “social justice” issues intersect with conservative “social justice” issues, here.

Of course, all of this would be better than nothing – I’m not arguing that Roe shouldn’t be overturned! But the real-life situation is a lot more complex than “Obama will kill a million babies a year, while McCain will sweep in with his magic carpet and charming, benevolent smile and save them all.”

Another argument is this: not only that McCain may not be the anti-abortion success story we’ve all been waiting for, but that if dramatic action isn’t taken to combat global warming; worldwide food and water shortages; and a dependency on gasoline at a time of peak oil, we will begin to see climate refugees in the millions, sub-Saharan starvation and drought deaths in the millions, and the potential for wars of resources that turn nuclear. Watch the movie “Children of Men” and ask yourself whether that’s more likely to be the future under a McCain or an Obama presidency. If you think McCain would help to prevent it, then fine, but we just have to admit that it’s a serious question and not to be brushed under the rug. Cases of evils equal to the 1.2 million children killed per year are not, in my mind, as hypothetical as some might like to think; they’re just not talked about too often.
CONT’D →
 
I have one last thought…again, sort of oriented at the question of someone like Doubtfire who finds herself politically liberal but maybe personally pro-life: I think the big mistake in American political life is to pretend that casting a vote is the biggest civic gesture you can make and that it all ends there. Especially for Catholics, whose beliefs compel them to be nonpartisan, the responsibility is much greater. So now I’ll pivot a bit and say to Obama supporters: if for whatever reason you have voted for Obama, you still owe it to yourself to fight for life. Don’t be afraid of being branded a hypocrite! If your vote was for all the other issues in the political spectrum, then it’s still incumbent on you to go to abortion vigils, help out at crisis pregnancy centers, write editorials, pray the rosary in public – in short, double up your efforts so that a vote that was meant to speak to your other convictions is not left alone to speak for your position on abortion. This is a lot harder than simply showing up to cast a vote, but I’d suggest it must, in good conscience, be done… (Doubtfire, you, of course, have done the most pro-life thing of all – God bless!)

Anyway…respectful disagreement is of course welcome. (I’d might as well say that, since I know it’s inevitable…haha…) And I’m not even going to say who I voted for…although I did vote for Bush, and do all sorts of pro-life work, in 2004…! 🙂

Peace and love to you all.
+AMDG+
 
my point is abortions will continue regardless of the law…
.
Murder will continue regardless of the law.

Rape will continue regardless of the law.

Stealing will continue regardless of the law.

Slavery will continue regardless of the law.

There will always be criminals who will disregard the law.

Should we do away with laws because criminals break them?

The statistics are available in many public places. Do the research, how many abortions took place each year before abortion was legal?
 
I meant the other way around if you think that what you say is the other way around…
???..

Oh well…I think I know what you meant. Neither of the two parties supports allowing disease and senseless violence but one does support allowing abortion. Point taken.
 
Hello, fbl19:

I am having a very hard time conceiving of a candidate that is both a “war monger” and “pro-life”.
Saddam Hussein wasn’t an American or a Canadian, and maybe the rules are different in the Third World, but he was certainly pro-life with regard to the unborn and the elderly, but at the same time, he was a war-monger, and he supported torture.

I suppose for him, the distinction was, total protection for innocent life, but absolute ruthlessness against anyone that he perceived as an enemy.
 
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