I'm very liberal, considering Catholicism.

[LeroyCRHP]

I came from this position when I went through RCIA in 1994 to where I am now, accepting the Catholic Church entirely. There is always a journey in faith. I recommend it highly!

Hi all!

This has become a stumbling block for me. Part of me is really interested in becoming Catholic because a lot of the theology makes sense, but the other part of me is terrified of conservative clergy. I’m having a very hard time differentiating what is peoples opinions and what is the actual teaching of the Church.

I read somewhere that if a Catholic votes for a politician that is not pro-life that they are automatically excommunicated. Is that how it is?

 

[Ender]

Google “Infant Mortality” then find the Wikipedia article.

Thank you. I was intending to reply to seekdatruth but was unable to find my reference. I probably should have said “I believe” infant mortality is counted differently in different countries because I have not done the research myself but the explanation seems much closer to reality than the numbers imply.

It is laughable on its face to believe that Cuba provides better care to newborns than does the US, but that is what the numbers say. Something else must explain the true reason their numbers are lower than ours and differences in what are counted as infant deaths is the most obvious explanation.

I have seen these statistical differences in other fields and would be amazed if they didn’t exist in this area as well. In the US, if three men rob a bank it is counted as three crimes; in (I think it is) England it is counted as one and some countries don’t count it at all unless a conviction is obtained.

I do not trust Wikipedia articles and would prefer other citations but there is a lot more to these numbers than the simple apples to apples comparison they imply.

Ender

 

[JDaniel]

I get your point, but I’m talking about a formal excommunication…forgive me if I’m not familiar with the terminology…what I mean is, the way it’s been explained to me, when someone commits a mortal sin, one must go to confession before going participating in communion. Being in the state of mortal sin and not being in a state of grace and thus having to go to confession, as you say is “technically” a form of excommunication…but it’s not the kind I’m speaking of. I don’t know the term, so I refer to it as “formal” excommunication. Would going to confession and repenting of the accused sin be the way of eliminating that “other” excommunication that I speak of? If someone commits willfully and knowingly has an abortion and goes to confession …then are they no longer excommunicated? Or is there another process that needs to take place, more than just going to confession? I’m confused about that because why would there need to be a list of things where people could get excommunicated for if the fact is they are just excommunicated for mortal sins…shouldn’t there just be a list of mortal sins? But in that “list” (the one in that link that someone provided) there is not mention of many mortal sins (contraception, murder, masturbation)…so what gives?

(Are they just trying to confuse me!? lol)

You’re OK, considering that you know the lingo. However, the key thing to being forgiven and to returning to the Church is True Remorse.

If one thinks one can just commit an act that separates one from the Church and then, simply go to confession - it doesn’t work that way.

God Bless,
jd

 

[JDaniel]

That’s the problem, there are limited family practice doctors who will accept SCHIP, and those that do are full. Others will say they are “full” if you have SCHIP, but if you call back and say you have Blue Cross or something, their doors automatically open. TRy and prove that one without an expensive lawyer on the case. If anyone knows how, well then please share that secret. You can lie and then go if you have the cash, because they will drop your claim like a hot potato, but if you have the money, then theoretically you wouldn’t be on SCHIP in the first place. Preventative care and timely treatment of infections is hard to come by when on SCHIP. That’s my point.
OK, I HAVE TO GET OFF THIS THING!
Peace.

You may be right, or, it may be regional, I can’t answer to your situation directly. I can tell you that in Jacksonville, FL, my daughter had her baby under the SCHIP program as though she was the one who it was designed for. Not a single problem whatsoever.

It was a pleasure to discuss with you. Hope to see you on another thread soon.

God Bless,
jd

 

[JDaniel]

Thank you. I was intending to reply to seekdatruth but was unable to find my reference. I probably should have said “I believe” infant mortality is counted differently in different countries because I have not done the research myself but the explanation seems much closer to reality than the numbers imply.

It is laughable on its face to believe that Cuba provides better care to newborns than does the US, but that is what the numbers say. Something else must explain the true reason their numbers are lower than ours and differences in what are counted as infant deaths is the most obvious explanation.

I have seen these statistical differences in other fields and would be amazed if they didn’t exist in this area as well. In the US, if three men rob a bank it is counted as three crimes; in (I think it is) England it is counted as one and some countries don’t count it at all unless a conviction is obtained.

I do not trust Wikipedia articles and would prefer other citations but there is a lot more to these numbers than the simple apples to apples comparison they imply.

Ender

Yep: I distrust Wikipedia as well. However, in this article, they give links to the sources. Add to them, the fact that this is a fairly common consensus amongst medical practitioners over here. (Of course, one could always say that they have a vested interest. However, I’ve been inside of hospitals in several foreign countries and really have no choice but to believe that there really isn’t a “vested interest” issue.)

God Bless,
jd

 

[jmcrae]

Thank you. I was intending to reply to seekdatruth but was unable to find my reference. I probably should have said “I believe” infant mortality is counted differently in different countries because I have not done the research myself but the explanation seems much closer to reality than the numbers imply.

It is laughable on its face to believe that Cuba provides better care to newborns than does the US, but that is what the numbers say. Something else must explain the true reason their numbers are lower than ours and differences in what are counted as infant deaths is the most obvious explanation.

The “obvious explanation” is that 100% of the Cuban population is college educated, and 100% of their medical infrastructure is government funded, so the mothers know how to detect illness in their children before it becomes life-threatening, and they can take their children to any doctor who is available, without having to worry about their insurance coverage.

These are some of the advantages of socialism.

 

[D0UBTFIRE]

The “obvious explanation” is that 100% of the Cuban population is college educated, and 100% of their medical infrastructure is government funded, so the mothers know how to detect illness in their children before it becomes life-threatening, and they can take their children to any doctor who is available, without having to worry about their insurance coverage.

These are some of the advantages of socialism.

I agree for the most part. Granted, 100% of the population is not college educated (my family in Cuba are Jehovah’s Witnesses and they’re not college educated). but there IS a doctor on every block…and insurance coverage is NOT an issue.

 

[estesbob]

The “obvious explanation” is that 100% of the Cuban population is college educated, and 100% of their medical infrastructure is government funded, so the mothers know how to detect illness in their children before it becomes life-threatening, and they can take their children to any doctor who is available, without having to worry about their insurance coverage.

These are some of the advantages of socialism.

Health care for the average Cubam is deplorable. They have a two tiered system-one that caters to foreigners and party elite and the other that serves the people. The former is first calss-the latter is bad even by third world standards.:

Baracoa, Cuba- March 30, 2007. The general condition of hospitals that provide medical services strictly for the Cuban people are deplorable.

medicinacubana.blogspot.com/2007/03/health-care-in-cuba-two-faces-of-myth.html

And imagine having to take a loved one to the hospital and when you get there, this is what the common area looks like:
http://www.babalublog.com/archives/entry.jpg
babalublog.com/archives/001470.html

In a country with one of the highest concentrations of doctors in the world, foreigners and Cuban party elite receive first-class service. But ordinary Cubans must make do with dilapidated facilities, outdated equipment, and meager medical supplies, in part because of the longstanding US embargo against Cuba.

pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1071486

 

[josephdavid]

But ordinary Cubans must make do with dilapidated facilities, outdated equipment, and meager medical supplies, in part because of the longstanding US embargo against Cuba

.

pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1071486

It makes no sense to me that when we apply economic sanctions to certain countries we include medicinal supplies. This is crazy and to me, in my opinion very un-Christian. Look at what happened in Iraq. Between 1991 - 1998 500,000 Iraqi children in the womb and living amongst us perish due to lack of medical supplies.

 

[estesbob]

It makes no sense to me that when we apply economic sanctions to certain countries we include medicinal supplies. This is crazy and to me, in my opinion very un-Christian. Look at what happened in Iraq. Between 1991 - 1998 500,000 Iraqi children in the womb and living amongst us perish due to lack of medical supplies.

There was no embargo on medical supplies and food . The sanctions were imposed by the UN, not the US.

In addition the 500,000 figure is bogus:

In August 1995, the U.N. Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) gave officials from the Iraqi Ministry of Health a questionnaire on child mortality and asked them to conduct a survey in the capital city of Baghdad. On the basis of this five-day, 693-household, Iraq-controlled study, the FAO announced in November that “child mortality had increased nearly five fold” since the pre-sanctions era. As embargo critic Richard Garfield, a public health specialist at Columbia University, wrote in his own comprehensive 1999 survey of under-5 deaths in Iraq, “The 1995 study’s conclusions were subsequently withdrawn by the authors……Notwithstanding the retraction of the original data, their estimate of more than 500,000 excess child deaths due to the embargo is still often repeated by sanctions critics.”

 

[josephdavid]

There was no embargo on medical supplies and food . The sanctions were imposed by the UN, not the US.

 

[kage_ar]

I will have to find where I read the statistics I posted but it was not a UN study but a UNICEF, and others studying this.

Tee Hee - UNICEF is part of the UN. What are they teaching kids in school today?

 

[estesbob]

estesbob;4620256:

Thank you for the correction however my questioning still stands.
However our govnernment was very much for this.

I will have to find where I read the statistics I posted but it was not a UN study but a UNICEF, and others studying this.

UNICEF is part of the UN. The number is bogus.

 

[estesbob]

estesbob;4620256:

Thank you for the correction however my questioning still stands.
However our govnernment was very much for this.

I will have to find where I read the statistics I posted but it was not a UN study but a UNICEF, and others studying this.

UN sanctions did not kill the hundreds of infants displayed over the years - it was neglect by the former regime, Iraqi doctors in Baghdad tell Charlotte Edwardes

The “baby parades” were a staple of Saddam Hussein’s propaganda machine for a decade. Convoys of taxis, with the tiny coffins of dead infants strapped to their roofs - allegedly killed by United Nations sanctions - were driven through the streets of Baghdad, past crowds of women screaming anti-Western slogans.

The moving scenes were often filmed by visiting television crews and provided valuable ammunition to anti-sanctions activists such as George Galloway, the Labour MP, who blamed Western governments for the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children.
But The Telegraph can reveal that it was all a cynical charade. Iraqi doctors say they were told to collect dead babies who had died prematurely or from natural causes and to store them in cardboard boxes in refrigerated morgues for up to four weeks - until they had sufficient corpses for a parade.

freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/917219/posts

 

[Ender]

The “obvious explanation” is that 100% of the Cuban population is college educated,

Do you actually believe that 100% of the population of any country on earth could possibly be college educated? It would be a minor miracle to find a country where every person graduated from high school - and that could only happen where attendance was compulsory.

These are some of the advantages of socialism.

Apparently most people don’t see many “advantages of socialism” as there don’t seem to be too many people trying to get into socialist countries.

Ender

 

[josephdavid]

Do you actually believe that 100% of the population of any country on earth could possibly be college educated? It would be a minor miracle to find a country where every person graduated from high school - and that could only happen where attendance was compulsory.

Apparently most people don’t see many “advantages of socialism” as there don’t seem to be too many people trying to get into socialist countries.

Ender

What do Sweden, Norway, Germany, France have in common. Increase in immigration. Why would that happen to a socialist country? Then again they are not truly socialist. But some would think they are because they have stricter labor, environmental regulations and universal healthcare for all it’s citizens.

 

[seekdatruth]

Has this moved on to the “socialist” fears now? :nope:
Oh man, just keep pulling out all the stops by playing on peoples’ unwarranted fears…
Ridiculous argument. Are you trying to justify greed and selfish needs? Ask your heart what your true motivations are. I can’t judge, I’m not in your heads, but I want you all to ask yourselves between you and God, with complete honesty, “What am I really arguing about?”
If your cause is nothing but noble, then GOOD. God bless you! If not…

 

[RosaryFan]

Just because a vast majority of liberals are pro abortion doesn’t mean to be a liberal one has to be pro abortion.
Also, being liberal doesn’t mean you have to vote liberal. When faced with a choice I’d vote conservative if the best pro life candidate was conservative.

Where I’m from abortion is illegal, so it’s not really an issue.

Where I’m from, there is no such thing as a liberal who is also pro-life.

 

[josephdavid]

Where I’m from, there is no such thing as a liberal who is also pro-life.

Hi. My name is Joseph. I am a liberal and Pro-Life. Nice to meet you.

 

[estesbob]

Hi. My name is Joseph. I am a liberal and Pro-Life. Nice to meet you.

So you didn’t vote for Obama?