Images-Statues

[VociMike]

Lina:

I believe the act of bowing and kneeling are forms of worship.

Even if the person bowing or kneeling does not feel themselves to be worshipping? Can a person worship without knowing they are doing so? That is, can a person love, adore, praise, glorify, honor without knowing they are doing so?

Further, have you ever met any person who worshipped any diety and denied they worshipped that diety? Do you deny you worship God? Do Muslims deny it? Do Jews deny it? Do Catholics deny it? Do pagans deny their gods? And yet Catholics deny they worship statues or saints or Mary. Isn’t it pretty much a universal understanding that one does not deny the God or gods they worship? Wouldn’t that pretty much universally be understood as a quick ticket to hell?

What would that say about Catholics if they truly did worship statues and saints and Mary, along with God, and yet denied it? Why would they deny worshipping all those “dieties” and not also deny worshipping God? Why would Catholics be so selective in denying their worship? If Catholics did indeed worship statues and saints and Mary, and repeatedly denied it, wouldn’t that just guarantee that Catholics, by their own standards of what they considered deserving of worship, were condemning themselves to hell?

 

[Dr.Colossus]

Lina:

Doesn’t that mean anyone can say anything could represent God? I have to go now, but I do appreciate everyone’s sincere feedback.

In a way, that is true. God created everything, so when we recognize that, everything is an (albeit imperfect) image of the Creator. The idea here is that anything that reminds us of God represents Him in some way. Our hearts and minds are drawn to Him through these representations, be they statues, symbols, Scripture, or even the natural world.

 

[Lina]

Dr. Colossus:

What he’s saying is that Lord and God are simply lines invented and created by human hands to refer to God. They are made as much by man as any statue, yet you don’t have a problem using them to represent the Supreme Being.

Ok, but isn’t there a difference between words that describe someone and a picture or statue created in man’s mind of what they believe he looks like? He introduces Himself as LORD Almighty in the Bible. He didn’t go into his physical description that we use in describing someone.

 

[RyanL]

Lina:

Forgive my ignorance but how does a fish respresent Christ? To me, a cross represents what He did, not him.

That is an acrostic for “Jesus Christ, of God, the Son, the Savior” Iesous (Jesus) CHristos (Christ) THeou (of God) Uiou (the Son) Soter (the Savior)]. ICHTHUS is Greek for fish. Have you seen the bumper stickers?

 

[VociMike]

Lina:

Please clarify.

You asked how anything made by human hands could represent the LORD GOD. Well words like “LORD” and “GOD” are made by human tongues and written by human hands. They represent, in a limited way, God. You use these human creations to represent God. Why is it OK to use some human creations to represent God, but not others?

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

Lina:

Joseph Bilodeau:

So I was worshiping my car earlier when I was changing that tire?

The LORD bless you. Sarcasm and pride are of no help.

Thank you, may the Lord bless you too. It’s good that you can recognize sarcasm, but where do you see pride? Changing a tire isn’t that difficult. The secret is to tighten the lugnuts sequentially across the wheel so the wheel seats firmly in place without wobbling.

Now, do you intend to answer the question? I was certainly assuming postures of bowing, kneeling on one knee and kneeling on both knees at various times throughout this operation, and my car is certainly made by human hands (although, given the way things are squeezed together under the hood, sometimes I suspect it was designed by inhuman engineers.)

 

[Dr.Colossus]

Lina:

Ok, but isn’t there a difference between words that describe someone and a picture or statue created in man’s mind of what they believe he looks like? He introduces Himself as LORD Almighty in the Bible. He didn’t go into his physical description that we use in describing someone.

We recognize that God the Father has no physical body. We also recognize that Christ has a glorified body and does not have to look like anything, and that the Saints are separated from their bodies. Statues don’t deny any of this. What they do is give us something to focus our mind on to assist the soul in contemplation. If Christ returned on the Last Day and, say, didn’t have a beard, I wouldn’t claim that He wasn’t Christ because my statue of Him has a beard.

Statues of Jesus do one thing and one thing only: they help us further a personal relationship with God. Let’s say you had a pen-pal, whom you wrote back and forth. Would your relationship feel more or less personal if they sent you a picture, even if that picture may not be completely accurate (say it was a couple of years old, or they got a haircut)?

 

[VociMike]

Lina:

Ok, but isn’t there a difference between words that describe someone and a picture or statue created in man’s mind of what they believe he looks like? He introduces Himself as LORD Almighty in the Bible. He didn’t go into his physical description that we use in describing someone.

The word “LORD” no more accurately conveys the actuality of God than a picture or statue of a man does. Both things are infinitely far removed from the Truth of God, but humans need such words and images to hang their concepts of God upon.

When you hear the words “Jesus” or “Christ” do you not form an image of a human man? Is there any Christian in all of history who has not formed mental images of Jesus? Has every Christian throughout history been committing mental idolatry?

We are not Jews or Muslims. God has revealed Himself to us, in the form of the person Jesus Christ. For this reason Catholics and Orthodox have been freed from the restrictions on images that Jews and Muslims (and very many Protestants) hold to.

 

[scylla]

Here is another example if I may,

When my daughter (she’s 5) makes a drawing of me and says that’s daddy, I enjoy it because it shows her love of me. I am not insulted that it is in her room on the wall.

She is 5 years old, but I am certain she understands the difference between the picture and me. Same with Catholics. She keeps the picture to remind herself of me, I assume cause she loves me. This makes me glad as I love the idea of my daughter doing something like that. I am not jealous of the picture.

Now there is a difference between having a representation of God and saying that that statue is God. God knows the heart and mind and the intention behind the action.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Lina:

As I said, living person vs. inanimate object.

When you salute the flag, are you worshipping it? When you put a flower on a grave, are you worshipping the departed? What is in the heart and soul of the person defines worship. One cannot accidentally worship a thing (or God).

 

[Servant1]

Lina:

As I said, living person vs. inanimate object.

The question asked of you still obtains. In Parliament, even when the Speaker is absent, the MPs bow toward the scepter and the Speaker’s Chair… giving respect to the person, even though physicallly absent, by paying respect to the symbol of their presence. They STILL know that person is not God.

Feel whatever you want to. That’s your decision. Nobody but you can control what you FEEL. But it’s not the teaching of the Church, nor has it ever been. The heresy of iconoclasm was officially and finally rejected by the Church at the 7th Ecumenical Council in 787.

 

[Servant1]

(from a flier I compiled on the subject for our parish) Part 1:

Images have been used by God’s command to represent God or his holy beings to the people since the earliest times (cf Exodus 25:22 & 26:1). Even in legal-minded Israel, paintings and other artistic representations were used to help the people remember spiritual truth. From the first years of the Church, Christians used both graphic symbols and images to represent things ranging from the fact that Christians met in a certain place to depictions of events like healings, the Lord’s Supper, and burial sites.

In considering the proscription against certain uses of images in the Ten Commandments, we must note that God’s own instructions to his people specify circumstances when images are rightfully used and are not contrary to his laws. A look at the context and wording of the commandment many have erroneously used to outlaw icons clearly shows that it doesn’t flatly prohibit the use of images, but it says, “you shall have no other Gods **before **me.” The context shows that the term “graven image” is used to refer to an idol – an image created to be worshiped as a god.

An icon is not merely a religious picture designed to arouse the appropriate emotions in the beholder; it is one of the ways whereby God is revealed to man. In the incarnation human nature, body as well as soul, was assumed into the life of the Word of God; and in the renewed creation, which this incarnation has effected, the whole material world is sanctified, and the destructive opposition of matter and spirit overcome.

By the incarnation of the Word who is the image of the Father (2 Cor 4:4, Col 1:15, Heb 1:3) the image of God in every man is restored and the material world itself sanctified and again made capable of mediating the divine beauty. Icons are used as a means of expressing, as far as it can be expressed, the glory of God seen in the face of Jesus Christ (2 Cor 4:6), and in the faces of his friends. Icons are words in painting, referring to the history of salvation and its manifestation in specific persons, places, and occurrences.

St John of Damascus explained thusly: “In times past, God, without body and form could in no way be represented. But now since God has appeared in the flesh and lived among men, I can depict that which is visible of God. I do not venerate matter, but I venerate the creator of matter, who became matter for me, who condescended to live in matter, and who through matter accomplished my salvation; and I do not cease to respect the matter through which my salvation is accomplished… Just as in the Bible we listen to the word of Christ and are sanctified… in the same way through the painted icons we behold the representation of his human form… and are likewise sanctified.”

 

[Servant1]

Part 2

An icon is a means of entering into contact with the person or event it represents; it is not an end in itself. Consider a favorite picture of a loved one and how reflection upon that picture renews your real love and communion with that loved one. That person, though not physically present, is made more closely present with you, spiritually, through that favorite image – an icon. In the words of St Basil: “The honor shown to the icon passes to the prototype.”

The 7th Ecumenical Council, at Nicea in 787, gave the following succinct explanation concerning the final triumph of the Church over the iconoclast heretics: “The more frequently they [icons] are seen, the more those who behold them are aroused to remember and desire the prototypes and to give them the greeting and veneration of honor; not indeed true worship which, according to our faith, is due to God alone.” So icons, though venerated, are not worshiped, nor held in regard equal to that of God, who alone is worshiped by his Church.

In response to the faith and prayer of the believers, God, through the icon, bestows his sanctifying and healing grace. Thus the icon serves to promote the communication of the Gospel and hence its making and use must always be controlled by theological [not artistic] criteria. Icons are deliberately not natural in appearance. Their job is to communicate the spiritual – the supernatural, if you will. The icon is not a random decoration, but an integral part of the Church’s life and worship.

In this respect its place in the Church’s worship can be compared with the place of music and chant and with the faithful preaching of the word of God.

more to follow…

 

[Servant1]

Part 3

In the orthodox tradition the depiction and use of icons has a christological foundation. The icon is understood as an important means whereby we confess and appropriate the mystery of the incarnation.

In our times, when visual imagery plays a more and more important part in people’s lives, the tradition of icons has acquired a startling relevance. It presents the Church with a new possibility of proclaiming the Gospel in a society in which language is often devalued.

Suppose you saw me kissing an icon or paying it some other reverential act. Am I engaged in the worship of idols? Here, you see, is where we come across the crucial reason for icons. In the image, we see the prototype. An icon of Christ reveals to us the Original. And through him, he taught us, we also glimpse the Father. Icons have become for us windows into heaven, revealing the glory of God. The fact is, icons help to protect us from idolatry! Thus we bow before the icon of Christ, seeing through it him and his Father.

These icons, these windows, may be seen as offering movement in two directions. They are for us who worship God a passage into the Kingdom of God, but they are also a revelation, a manifestation of the unseen heavenly host of angels, saints, and martyrs – yes, even the eternal saving events – into our presence. The Church becomes a true outpost of heaven on earth.

In concert with the hymns, the Scriptures, and the prayers, the theology in color conveyed in the icons to the receptive heart helps bring the worshiper into the very presence of God to adore and know him. For it is the whole being – the whole “me” or “you” – who worships, not just some ethereal aspect we call the soul. We Christians are not, after all, Gnostic dualists who consider the spiritual part of us worthy of God and the body a lesser or unworthy part. Thus Christian worship involved the whole body, with all its senses, in worship.

more to follow…

 

[Servant1]

Part 4 - FINAL installation

Icons false images? No! For we do not picture the invisible, nor do we worship the icon. They are true images indeed, safely within the boundaries of biblical tradition surrounding true worship. They engage the human eye in the worship and adoration of God. For the honor paid to the images passes on to that which the image represents, and he who reveres it reveres in it the subject represented. Thus the icon is a true image, a window into heaven and a light, which guides us there. It takes the same role as the pillar of fire guiding Israel to the Promised Land. It tells us that our Lord Jesus Christ and his great cloud of witnesses are present, on hand, on high, with us. Therefore it is indispensable for those who sincerely pursue and desire the fullness of Christian worship.

I hope this small treatise can help those who misunderstand the use of images and who are taken by the Gnostic or overly-Protestant misunderstanding of the true use of images within the proper use of the Church. As I said in my original response - one can FEEL anything they want to feel. But don’t mistake that for the teaching of the Church… that has been constant, as has been pointed out even by scrioptural references and history.

 

[elizabeth4truth]

Lina:

But who knows what He looks like?

Great question! I sure don’t but I still need something I can imagine Jesus looked like to think about Him. It’s part of my limitation. I’ve got more then my share I’m afraid.

God the Father and Spirit should know for sure. How about His Mother and the apostles and disciples that saw Him on earth? I think Moses and Elijah know what Jesus looks like. I sure would like to know but I don’t. The pictures do help me to think about what He might possible look like though and that helps me to focus all my soul, mind and strength in His direction.

Regarding statues representing people who did see Him, like Mother Mary, & St. Jude, maybe it helps to ask these to go to Him, on our behalf, maybe it doesn’t. I sure feel that the saints and angels have helped me, in my faith walk and continue to do so. I’m very thankful for that. I have a feeling of being a tiny part of the Body of Christ and in communion with His angels and saints. We’re one BIG, HAPPY family, made in the Divine Image.

Jesus is my only Lord. He’s The Man!!!

Peace and joy to you,
Elizabeth

 

[catholic2005]

Lina:

In the Quick Question section I read that Catholics do not worship statues because only God is deserving of adoration. When a Catholic bows to a statue, he is not worshiping it any more than King Solomon worshiped Bathsheba when he bowed to her in 1Kings 2:19.
First, to me there is a difference between bowing to a living being and bowing to something that has been made with human hands. I believe the act of bowing and kneeling are forms of worship.
Psalms 95:6 “O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker.”

You are not allowed to use the bible which is made, compiled, and cannonized by the catholic church to refute any catholic church’s teaching. You don’t have the authority to interprete the content of the bible by yourself.
If you are catholic, than you should ask your priest about it, but if you’re not catholic, than read very carefully what I just wrote above.
thanks

 

[miguel_delgado]

hola amigos:

lets take this literal, “protestants say, thow shall not make any image” so…
the U S goverment is idol worshiper because the lincoln memorial you americans worship lincoln.

the whole world worship mickey mouse because all the things made at the image of the mouse.

the program “american idol” there are making idols

the star wars fans (me) worship palpatine or darth vader

so please protestant brothers and sisters, if you are going to judge, dont judge only catholics, sound so silly when you are trying to convince us of something its not true

 

[Mickey]

Servant1 did an exellent job explaining icons. If I may add one thing. Because of the high illiteracy rate amongst the early Christians, icons were used to pictorially teach the Scriptures to those who couldn’t read.

 

[Malachi4U]

Lina,

You seem to have been very missguided by someone on Catholic teachings and what words mean, this may help.

Pray means ‘to ask’ or make a humble request. By this definition prayer does not have to be directed to God alone. So Roman Catholics do pray to Blessed Mary since it is only a humble request and nothing more.

Worship means reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; an act of expressing such reverence, a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual, extravagant respect or admiration or devotion. By definition we can worship someone deserving of our admiration or devotion even though they are not God by any means. We can also worship God. So Roman Catholics do worship God and worship Blessed Mary also. There is nothing at all wrong with this Tradition using this definition.

Venerate means to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference or to honor with a ritual act of devotion. Based on this Roman Catholics do in fact venerate Blessed Mary as well as our parents, great people in history like the apostles, and Christian martyrs. These people have a special place in our hearts. Have you ever thanked St. Stephen for being the first known Christian martyr? (He’s in Scripture you know)

Adore means to worship or honor as a deity or as divine with loving admiration and devotion. Based on this definition Roman Catholics adore God and God alone!
Honor a showing of usually merited respect or one whose worth brings respect or fame.

Catholics and Protestants use the same words with different meanings so know how each uses them. Catholics adore God and God alone. Catholics honor and venerate Blessed Mary, and others too. I bet Jesus venerated and honored His own mother so why don’t you?

Catholics bow/knell when they pray. It is a form of respect to God . We bow/knell to God when we pray if there is a statue there or not! The statue is just a symbol that helps us focus on our prayers or to remind us of special people in our history. Americans have a flag and they salute it, does it mean they worship the cloth like a graven image? Of course not! You’ve just been subjected to anti-Catholic biggotry. Will you bow/knell to God when you pray? When you get to heaven will you bow/knell to Him? Why not start here on earth when you pray to Him!

When you pray from the Bible while reading it are you worshiping the paper and ink as a graven image? Then why accuse Catholics of it?

I knell in front of my Marry garden when I weed it while I pray. I do not worship the sunflowers I just use them to help me focus on prayers to God. I prayed for about an hour today while I weeded. I knelt the entire time. I worked my hands in the dirt, I devoted my mind to prayer to God. I knelt the whole time and I loved it. I love to knell to God when I pray to him in front of a statue, a plant, a candle, a crucifix or a plain old wall! Catholics knell to God, why don’t others do it more is the real question you should be asking here.

You should try pulling out your Bible, a cross/crucifix and a candle tonight. Wait until dark then put the candle on your coffee table and light it. Put your cross behind it and your Bible infront of it. Turn out all your other lights, knell down and pray to God while you read his word in candle light. The light symbolizes God lighting our path for direction. The smoke represents our prayers going up to heaven. The heat from the candle is Gods warmth in Love for us. Knelling down is an outward sign of adoration to God for your inward f/Faith. You’ll be knelling down more often when you pray in no time. Oh yeah, the cross? It’s just there as a reminder to focus your prayer on God. To remind you of the sacrifice and suffering Jesus went through for you when I crucified Him.

JMJ