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misslollipops
Guest
We both know what Maria said and it was not prompted by me.
See post 42
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See post 42
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HailMary
Guest
You will not be able to understand this without the CONTEXT.
But first, you need to understand the teachings of the Church and all will make sense.
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VociMike
Guest
So then you deny that you believe that the doctrines under discussion were invented?
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
My ‘interesting statement’ is directly from the work of St. Louis Marie Grignon De Montfort; “True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin”. I highly recommend reading it.
What is meant by this statement, and what I do in adhering to it, is that I am a slave of Jesus in Mary. As she strove to do in every aspect of her life to live most perfectly for God, (“I am the handmaid of the Lord, be it done to me according to thy will”) I strive to do. Because Mary leads to Jesus–because Mary is only who she is BECAUSE of Jesus–I honor her as blessed and I model myself on her. Every action in her life as recorded by Scripture and tradition shows her perfect adherence to the will of God. Everything she did honored GOD (“My soul magnifies the Lord, my spirit rejoices in God my savior”). She bore the Lord, she cared for him, and her last recorded words in Scripture are, “Do as He tells you.”
As a woman, I model myself on Mary’s perfect obedience to God and focus on God in all my actions. By doing so, I thus strive to be a more perfect Christian FOR JESUS. In looking to Mary, I see Jesus. Nothing ever goes only ‘to Mary’; anything that I do or think or say I beg her to TAKE TO HER SON.
Why, you may ask, do I not go ‘directly to Jesus?’
Well, first, like the publican, I am ‘not worthy’. Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner.
Second, nowhere are we told that we may-or indeed should–go ‘directly to Jesus’. Far more often we are like St. Peter, begging the Lord to depart from us “For I am a sinful person.” Even those who ‘beg’ from the Lord do not approach Him CONFIDENTLY, DEMANDING to be heard. No, like the paralytic they are brought to Christ by friends. Like the beggars, they do not come up to Him but remain ‘crying from the byway’, relying on HIM to approach them.
In scripture we so often see the people BEG that they not 'hear the word of the Lord, lest we perish. Exodus". The people have advocates . . .judges, prophets, and teachers. . .who approach God on behalf of the people.
So. . .I go to Mary, mother of the Lord. . .in order to beg HER to approach HIM on MY behalf. In humility, as she was humble. But everything I do, ask, or say is always ‘for’ HIM, ‘through’ her.
You may not yourself choose this approach. . .but it is solidly Scriptural and appropriate, to chose a ‘mediator to the mediator’. Certainly there is ONE mediator, and that is Christ. . .but we can all advocate for one another TO Christ.
Remember, He told us that parable of the people coming to a wedding feast looking for the highest place. . .and that they would be told to give way for others. So He tells us to be humble, to choose the lowest place. For the last shall be first, and the first last.
What is meant by this statement, and what I do in adhering to it, is that I am a slave of Jesus in Mary. As she strove to do in every aspect of her life to live most perfectly for God, (“I am the handmaid of the Lord, be it done to me according to thy will”) I strive to do. Because Mary leads to Jesus–because Mary is only who she is BECAUSE of Jesus–I honor her as blessed and I model myself on her. Every action in her life as recorded by Scripture and tradition shows her perfect adherence to the will of God. Everything she did honored GOD (“My soul magnifies the Lord, my spirit rejoices in God my savior”). She bore the Lord, she cared for him, and her last recorded words in Scripture are, “Do as He tells you.”
As a woman, I model myself on Mary’s perfect obedience to God and focus on God in all my actions. By doing so, I thus strive to be a more perfect Christian FOR JESUS. In looking to Mary, I see Jesus. Nothing ever goes only ‘to Mary’; anything that I do or think or say I beg her to TAKE TO HER SON.
Why, you may ask, do I not go ‘directly to Jesus?’
Well, first, like the publican, I am ‘not worthy’. Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner.
Second, nowhere are we told that we may-or indeed should–go ‘directly to Jesus’. Far more often we are like St. Peter, begging the Lord to depart from us “For I am a sinful person.” Even those who ‘beg’ from the Lord do not approach Him CONFIDENTLY, DEMANDING to be heard. No, like the paralytic they are brought to Christ by friends. Like the beggars, they do not come up to Him but remain ‘crying from the byway’, relying on HIM to approach them.
In scripture we so often see the people BEG that they not 'hear the word of the Lord, lest we perish. Exodus". The people have advocates . . .judges, prophets, and teachers. . .who approach God on behalf of the people.
So. . .I go to Mary, mother of the Lord. . .in order to beg HER to approach HIM on MY behalf. In humility, as she was humble. But everything I do, ask, or say is always ‘for’ HIM, ‘through’ her.
You may not yourself choose this approach. . .but it is solidly Scriptural and appropriate, to chose a ‘mediator to the mediator’. Certainly there is ONE mediator, and that is Christ. . .but we can all advocate for one another TO Christ.
Remember, He told us that parable of the people coming to a wedding feast looking for the highest place. . .and that they would be told to give way for others. So He tells us to be humble, to choose the lowest place. For the last shall be first, and the first last.
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NotWorthy
Guest
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misslollipops
Guest
So you do all these things and make these requests to Mary without ever knowing if she could even hear you.
Remember the rich man and Lazarus in Lk16:19-31.
How do you know Mary hears and obeys you.
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misslollipops
Guest
My statement was 42 her response was 44. She used the words invented not me. Can you follow that?
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NotWorthy
Guest
Are you talking about post 44:
She’s saying that this teaching was not invented in 1950 when it was declared dogma.
This statement is completely silent on whether she thinks this teaching was invented or not invented (but those who know her know what she believes, and it’s not that the teaching was invented. It’s always been there with the church).
I, return to my original point. Is your interpretation of her words a typical example of your interpretation skills? And I should trust what you say about the bible?!?!?
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misslollipops
Guest
Reading your posts is tiring
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thistle
Guest
I’ve just read the posts you refer to and no you did not use the word invent. However, when you say the Assumption was just made dogma in 1950 you are implying that the Assumption had never been taught before that date which of course is not true.
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rciadan
Guest
I am not here to help anyone convert. I can convert no-one. I am here to speak the truth. II is the truth that sets one free. If you are afraid to speak the truth because you fear hurting someones feelings, you do them no good. That kind of thinking is why so many don;t believe in hell, until they end up there.
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MSParrott
Guest
:banghead: Have you ever asked someone to pray for you or to pray for a situation? She is our spiritual Mother and OF COURSE she hears us, however NO ONE (other than yourself just now) said she obeys us - honestly, where do you come up with these things?!
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justasking4
Guest
Keep in mind that the Sixth ecumenical council condemned him
(681)
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justasking4
Guest
Where? The verses i have seen used by catholics don’t support it.
Whats not true?
The catholic church has not done this though. It should be well known by now that the apostles never taught anything about Mary being immaculate conceived or assumed. Now if u want to rely on some kind of “oral tradition” of the apostles then where can that be found? Just claiming it exist is not evidence for it. We need some documentation for it.
I’m not aware of any. However it is only the scriptures that are inspired-inerrant and all other sources are secondary to it in authority.
This means alot. What you have this many years after the supposed event are no eyewitness accounts nor documentation for it. Without it, you don’t have any historical evidence that such a thing ever happened.
Denying it. Its the speculations of men.
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Michael_Francis
Guest
Thread pruned of some 22 off-topic posts. If I see any more of this the culprits will face the consequences.
MF
MF
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VociMike
Guest
Then there’s no point in my repeating them.
That all we have to go by is what’s written. That is simply an assumption based upon a false understanding of the Church and the Scriptures, and one never supported by the Church.
So say you. Anybody can say anything.
You’ll trust “documentation” but you won’t trust the Church founded by Christ - the one that gave you the New Testament, let’s not forget. Talk about having one’s priorities wrong…
Wrong again. Another assumption without foundation and without support throughout Church history.
You’re not comprehending that by making that charge you simply open yourself to the exact same charge in return. If some teaching was invented in 377 then obviously the Church would oppose it then or soon after. Can you even concede that? But you can produce not a shred of evidence that the Church opposed this “invention” at any point it her entire history - that’s 1600 years without any evidence to support your claims.
Then show me where these speculations of men were denounced by the Church. You’ve got 1600 years of historical record to go by, not just 377 years.
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justasking4
Guest
What does sola scriptura have to do with asking for documentation?
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HailMary
Guest
Thats a good question, you may want to think about it.
This may help you.
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VociMike
Guest
You know, it occurs to me that this request for documentation is spurious. We can document many other Catholic “distinctives” much earlier in Church history, but Protestants reject those anyway. it’s not like they’ll accept any Catholic teaching which can be “documented” before year X. No documentation is going to convince them. Heck, even having it clearly stated in the bible is not going to convince them! (Baptism and the Eucharist, anybody?)
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HailMary
Guest
the SIMPLEST one to be proved from Scripture is, IMO, the Sacrament of Reconciliation:
John 20:22-23
When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
but hey, what do I know?
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