Immaculate Conception of Mary + Lutherans?

[Esdra]

Hi all,

as you know, today, December 8, 2010, is the feast of the Immaculate Conception of Mary.

Now my question:

I know that some protestants (especially the Lutherans) celebrate for example All Saints Day on November 1.
And now I wanted to know from protestants if there are “Catholic feasts” that are celebrated also by them but nobody would ever guess that.

And of course: Is the feast of the Immaculate Conception of Mary celebreted among Lutherans? (other Protestants: please feel also free to participate if you also celebrate “Catholic feasts”!)

Esdra

 

[WorkerPriest]

Esdra,

Since Lutherans are catholics (by our measure of the creeds and so forth) we celebrate many catholic feasts throughout the liturgical year. I personally celebrated the Feast of St. Nicholas on the 6th of December, as he was the patron saint of my birth.

While Lutherans do not universally subscribe to the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary, many of us side with Luther himself in accepting the concept as good pious opinion. That particular feast, however, is not on our liturgical calendar.

Blessings to you.

Hi all,

as you know, today, December 8, 2010, is the feast of the Immaculate Conception of Mary.

Now my question:

I know that some protestants (especially the Lutherans) celebrate for example All Saints Day on November 1.
And now I wanted to know from protestants if there are “Catholic feasts” that are celebrated also by them but nobody would ever guess that.

And of course: Is the feast of the Immaculate Conception of Mary celebreted among Lutherans? (other Protestants: please feel also free to participate if you also celebrate “Catholic feasts”!)

Esdra

 

[Esdra]

Esdra,

Since Lutherans are catholics (by our measure of the creeds and so forth) we celebrate many catholic feasts throughout the liturgical year. I personally celebrated the Feast of St. Nicholas on the 6th of December, as he was the patron saint of my birth.

While Lutherans do not universally subscribe to the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary, many of us side with Luther himself in accepting the concept as good pious opinion. That particular feast, however, is not on our liturgical calendar.

Blessings to you.

Hi

thanks.

Do have by chance a Lutheran liturgical calendar handy?
I would be interested which feasts actually ARE celebreted and which are not.

But in General feasts for the Saints are not celebrated, right?
Like St. Martin, St. Niclas, St. Barbara, St. Elizabeth (to name some known ones. )

Esdra

 

[BlueShadow123]

My moms side of the family is lutheran (protestant) and my dads side is catholic.

My moms side does not practice or celebrate any day relating to mary.

My dads side probably does, because I know they are very, very catholic. Especially my grandparents. They are the ones who installed the religion into my aunts and uncles anyways.

However I have never seen them or heard of them celebrating anything with mary.
I do know my Grandma always prayed for the family daily, and she liked to pray to mary.

Why? I don’t know, I think praying to God himself would be more affective, but thats just me.

 

[gcnuss]

Esdras,

Lutherans do not celebrate the Immaculate Conception.

You asked about the Lutheran liturgical calendar. The following is from the Lutheran Book of Worship and includes Sundays and Principal Festivals, Lesser Festivals, and Commemorations. Sundays and Principal Festivals are in bold print, Lesser Festivals are in ordinary print, and Commemorations are italicized. Dates are for the coming year. I’ve run afoul of the 6000 character limit, so more will follow.

Sat Jan 1, 2011 Name of Jesus
Sun Jan 2 Second Sunday of Christmas
Sun Jan 2 Johann Konrad Wilhelm Loehe, renewer of the church, died 1872
Thu Jan 6 Epiphany of Our Lord
Sun Jan 9 Baptism of Our Lord
Sun Jan 9 Adrian of Canterbury, teacher, died around 710
Sat Jan 15 Martin Luther King Jr., renewer of society, martyr, died 1968
Sun Jan 16 Second Sunday after Epiphany
Mon Jan 17 Antony of Egypt, renewer of the church, died around 356
Mon Jan 17 Pachomius, renewer of the church, died 346
Tue Jan 18 Confession of Peter
Wed Jan 19 Henry, Bishop of Uppsala, martyr, died 1156
Fri Jan 21 Agnes, martyr, died around 304
Sun Jan 23 Third Sunday after Epiphany
Tue Jan 25 Conversion of Paul
Wed Jan 26 Timothy, Titus, and Silas, missionaries
Thu Jan 27 Lydia, Dorcas, and Phoebe, witnesses to the faith
Fri Jan 28 Thomas Aquinas, teacher, died 1274
Sun Jan 30 Fourth Sunday after Epiphany
Wed Feb 2 Presentation of Our Lord
Thu Feb 3 Ansgar, Bishop of Hamburg, missionary to Denmark and Sweden, died 865
Sat Feb 5 The Martyrs of Japan, died 1597
Sun Feb 6 Fifth Sunday after Epiphany5
Sun Feb 13 Sixth Sunday after Epiphany
Mon Feb 14 Cyril, monk, died 869; Methodius, bishop, died 885; missionaries to the Slavs
Fri Feb 18 Martin Luther, renewer of the church, died 1546
*Sun Feb 20 Seventh Sunday after Epiphany **
Wed Feb 23 Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna, martyr, died 156
Fri Feb 25 Elizabeth Fedde, deaconess, died 1921
Sun Feb 27 Eighth Sunday after Epiphany
Tue Mar 1 George Herbert, hymnwriter, died 1633
Wed Mar 2 John Wesley, died 1791; Charles Wesley, died 1788; renewers of the church
Sun Mar 6 Transfiguration of Our Lord
Mon Mar 7 Perpetua and Felicity and companions, martyrs at Carthage, died 202
Wed Mar 9 Ash Wednesday
Thu Mar 10 Harriet Tubman, died 1913; Sojourner Truth, died 1883; renewers of society
*Sat Mar 12 Gregory the Great, Bishop of Rome, died 604
Sun Mar 13 First Sunday in Lent
Thu Mar 17 Patrick, bishop, missionary to Ireland, died 461
Sat Mar 19 Joseph, Guardian of Jesus
Sun Mar 20 Second Sunday in Lent
Mon Mar 21 Thomas Cranmer, Bishop of Canterbury, martyr, died 1556
Tue Mar 22 Jonathan Edwards, teacher, missionary to American Indians, died 1758
Thu Mar 24 Oscar Arnulfo Romero, Bishop of El Salvador, martyr, died 1980
Fri Mar 25 Annunciation of Our Lord
Sun Mar 27 Third Sunday in Lent
Tue Mar 29 Hans Nielsen Hauge, renewer of the church, died 1824
Thu Mar 31 John Donne, poet, died 1631
Sun Apr 3 Fourth Sunday in Lent
Mon Apr 4 Benedict the African, confessor, died 1589
Wed Apr 6 Albrecht Dürer, died 1528; Matthias Grünewald, died 1529; Lucas Cranach, died 1553; artists
Sat Apr 9 Dietrich Bonhoeffer, theologian, died 1945
Sun Apr 10 Fifth Sunday in Lent
Sun Apr 10 Mikael Agricola, Bishop of Turku, died 1557
Sun Apr 17 Sunday of the Passion / Palm Sunday
Mon Apr 18 Monday in Holy Week
Tue Apr 19 Tuesday in Holy Week
Tue Apr 19 Olavus Petri, priest, died 1552; Laurentius Petri, Bishop of Uppsala, died 1573; renewers of the church
Wed Apr 20 Wednesday in Holy Week
Thu Apr 21 Maundy Thursday
Thu Apr 21 Anselm, Bishop of Canterbury, died 1109
Fri Apr 22 Good Friday
Sat Apr 23 Resurrection of Our Lord, Vigil of Easter
Sat Apr 23 Toyohiko Kagawa, renewer of society, died 1960
Sun Apr 24 Resurrection of Our Lord, Easter Day
Sun Apr 24 Resurrection of Our Lord, Easter Evening
Mon Apr 25 Mark, Evangelist
Fri Apr 29 Catherine of Siena, theologian, died 1380

Please note that we do not, as a rule, hold special services for each Lesser Festival or Commemoration. Those so recognized are included in our prayers on the preceding Sunday.

If you have any questions I’ll do my best to answer them.

 

[gcnuss]

Here’s the second part of my list.

Sun May 1 Second Sunday of Easter
Mon May 2 Philip and James, Apostles (transferred)
Mon May 2 Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, died 373
Wed May 4 Monica, mother of Augustine, died 387
Sun May 8 Third Sunday of Easter
Sun May 8 Julian of Norwich, renewer of the church, died around 1416
*Sun May 8 Victor the Moor, martyr, died 303 *
Mon May 9 Nicolaus Ludwig von Zinzendorf, renewer of the church, hymnwriter, died 1760
Sat May 14 Matthias, Apostle
Sun May 15 Fourth Sunday of Easter
Wed May 18 Erik, King of Sweden, martyr, died 1160
Sat May 21 Helena, mother of Constantine, died around 330
Sun May 22 Fifth Sunday of Easter
Tue May 24 Nicolaus Copernicus, died 1543; Leonhard Euler, died 1783; scientists
Fri May 27 John Calvin, renewer of the church, died 1564
Sun May 29 Sixth Sunday of Easter
Sun May 29 Jiri Tranovsky, hymnwriter, died 1637
Tue May 31 Visit of Mary to Elizabeth
Wed Jun 1 Justin, martyr at Rome, died around 165
Thu Jun 2 Ascension of Our Lord
Fri Jun 3 John XXIII, Bishop of Rome, died 1963
Fri Jun 3 The Martyrs of Uganda, died 1886
Sun Jun 5 Seventh Sunday of Easter
Sun Jun 5 Boniface, Bishop of Mainz, missionary to Germany, martyr, died 754
Tue Jun 7 Seattle, chief of the Duwamish Confederacy, died 1866
Thu Jun 9 Columba, died 597; Aidan, died 651; Bede, died 735; renewers of the church
Sat Jun 11 Barnabas, Apostle
Sat Jun 11 Vigil of Pentecost
Sun Jun 12 Day of Pentecost
Tue Jun 14 Basil the Great, Bishop of Caesarea, died 379; Gregory, Bishop of Nyssa, died around 385; Gregory of Nazianzus, Bishop of Constantinople, died around 389; Macrina, theologian, died around 379
Sun Jun 19 The Holy Trinity / First Sunday after Pentecost
Tue Jun 21 Onesimos Nesib, translator, evangelist, died 1931
Fri Jun 24 John the Baptist
Sat Jun 25 Philipp Melanchthon, renewer of the church, died 1560
Sat Jun 25 Presentation of the Augsburg Confession, 1530
Sun Jun 26 Second Sunday after Pentecost
Mon Jun 27 Cyril, Bishop of Alexandria, died 444
Tue Jun 28 Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons, died around 202
Wed Jun 29 Peter and Paul, Apostles
Fri Jul 1 Catherine Winkworth, died 1878; John Mason Neale, died 1866; hymn translators
Sun Jul 3 Third Sunday after Pentecost
Mon Jul 4 Thomas, Apostle (transferred)
Wed Jul 6 Jan Hus, martyr, died 1415
Sun Jul 10 Fourth Sunday after Pentecost
Mon Jul 11 Benedict of Nursia, Abbot of Monte Cassino, died around 540
Tue Jul 12 Nathan Söderblom, Bishop of Uppsala, died 1931
Sun Jul 17 Fifth Sunday after Pentecost
Sun Jul 17 Bartolomé de Las Casas, missionary to the Indies, died 1566
Fri Jul 22 Mary Magdalene, Apostle
Sat Jul 23 Birgitta of Sweden, renewer of the church, died 1373
Sun Jul 24 Sixth Sunday after Pentecost
Mon Jul 25 James, Apostle
Thu Jul 28 Johann Sebastian Bach, died 1750; Heinrich Schütz, died 1672; George Frederick Handel, died 1759; musicians
Fri Jul 29 Mary, Martha, and Lazarus of Bethany
Fri Jul 29 Olaf, King of Norway, martyr, died 1030
Sun Jul 31 Seventh Sunday after Pentecost
Sun Aug 7 Eighth Sunday after Pentecost
Mon Aug 8 Dominic, founder of the Order of Preachers (Dominicans), died 1221
Wed Aug 10 Lawrence, deacon, martyr, died 258
Thu Aug 11 Clare, Abbess of San Damiano, died 1253
Sat Aug 13 Florence Nightingale, died 1910; Clara Maass, died 1901; renewers of society
Sun Aug 14 Ninth Sunday after Pentecost
Sun Aug 14 Maximilian Kolbe, died 1941; Kaj Munk, died 1944; martyrs
Mon Aug 15 Mary, Mother of Our Lord
Sat Aug 20 Bernard, Abbot of Clairvaux, died 1153
Sun Aug 21 Tenth Sunday after Pentecost
Wed Aug 24 Bartholomew, Apostle
Sun Aug 28 Eleventh Sunday after Pentecost
Sun Aug 28 Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, died 430
Sun Aug 28 Moses the Black, monk, martyr, died around 400
Fri Sep 2 Nikolai Frederik Severin Grundtvig, bishop, renewer of the church, died 1872
Sun Sep 4 Twelfth Sunday after Pentecost
Fri Sep 9 Peter Claver, priest, missionary to Colombia, died 1654
Sun Sep 11 Thirteenth Sunday after Pentecost
Tue Sep 13 John Chrysostom, Bishop of Constantinople, died 407
Wed Sep 14 Holy Cross Day
Fri Sep 16 Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage, martyr, died around 258
Sat Sep 17 Hildegard, Abbess of Bingen, died 1179
Sun Sep 18 Fourteenth Sunday after Pentecost
Sun Sep 18 Dag Hammarskjöld, renewer of society, died 1961
*Tue Sep 20 Nelson Wesley Trout, bishop, died 1996 *
Wed Sep 21 Matthew, Apostle and Evangelist
Sun Sep 25 Lectionary 26 / Fifteenth Sunday after Pentecost
Thu Sep 29 Michael and All Angels
Fri Sep 30 Jerome, translator, teacher, died 420

 

[gcnuss]

And, finally.

Sun Oct 2 Sixteenth Sunday after Pentecost
Tue Oct 4 Francis of Assisi, renewer of the church, died 1226
Tue Oct 4 Theodor Fliedner, renewer of society, died 1864
Thu Oct 6 William Tyndale, translator, martyr, died 1536
Fri Oct 7 Henry Melchior Muhlenberg, pastor in North America, died 1787
Sun Oct 9 Seventeenth Sunday after Pentecost
Mon Oct 10 Massie L. Kennard, renewer of the church, died 1996
Sat Oct 15 Teresa of Ávila (Teresa de Jesús), teacher, renewer of the church, died 1582
Sun Oct 16 Eighteenth Sunday after Pentecost
Mon Oct 17 Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, martyr, died around 115
Tue Oct 18 Luke, Evangelist
Sun Oct 23 Nineteenth Sunday after Pentecost
Sun Oct 23 James of Jerusalem, martyr, died around 62
Wed Oct 26 Philipp Nicolai, died 1608; Johann Heermann, died 1647; Paul Gerhardt, died 1676; hymnwriters
Fri Oct 28 Simon and Jude, Apostles
Sun Oct 30 Reformation Sunday
Mon Oct 31 Reformation Day
Tue Nov 1 All Saints Day
Thu Nov 3 Martín de Porres, renewer of society, died 1639
Sun Nov 6 All Saints Sunday
Mon Nov 7 John Christian Frederick Heyer, died 1873; Bartholomaeus Ziegenbalg, died 1719; Ludwig Nommensen, died 1918; missionaries
Fri Nov 11 Martin, Bishop of Tours, died 397
Fri Nov 11 Søren Aabye Kierkegaard, teacher, died 1855
Sun Nov 13 Twenty-second Sunday after Pentecost
Thu Nov 17 Elizabeth of Hungary, renewer of society, died 1231
Sun Nov 20 Christ the King
Wed Nov 23 Clement, Bishop of Rome, died around 100
Wed Nov 23 Miguel Agustín Pro, martyr, died 1927
Thu Nov 24 Justus Falckner, died 1723; Jehu Jones, died 1852; William Passavant, died 1894; pastors in North America
Fri Nov 25 Isaac Watts, hymnwriter, died 1748
Sun Nov 27 First Sunday of Advent
Wed Nov 30 Andrew, Apostle
Sat Dec 3 Francis Xavier, missionary to Asia, died 1552
Sun Dec 4 Second Sunday of Advent
Sun Dec 4 John of Damascus, theologian and hymnwriter, died around 749
Tue Dec 6 Nicholas, Bishop of Myra, died around 342
Wed Dec 7 Ambrose, Bishop of Milan, died 397
Sun Dec 11 Third Sunday of Advent
Tue Dec 13 Lucy, martyr, died 304
Wed Dec 14 John of the Cross, renewer of the church, died 1591
Sun Dec 18 Fourth Sunday of Advent
Tue Dec 20 Katharina von Bora Luther, renewer of the church, died 1552
Sat Dec 24 Nativity of Our Lord (I), Christmas Eve
Sun Dec 25 Nativity of Our Lord (II), Christmas Day
Sun Dec 25 Nativity of Our Lord (III), Christmas Day
Mon Dec 26 Stephen, Deacon and Martyr
Tue Dec 27 John, Apostle and Evangelist
Wed Dec 28 The Holy Innocents, Martyrs

 

[pablope]

And, finally.

Sun Oct 2 Sixteenth Sunday after Pentecost
Tue Oct 4 Francis of Assisi, renewer of the church, died 1226
Tue Oct 4 Theodor Fliedner, renewer of society, died 1864
Thu Oct 6 William Tyndale, translator, martyr, died 1536
Wed Nov 23 Clement, Bishop of Rome, died around 100
Wed Nov 23 Miguel Agustín Pro, martyr, died 1927
Thu Nov 24 Justus Falckner, died 1723; Jehu Jones, died 1852; William Passavant, died 1894; pastors in North America
Fri Nov 25 Isaac Watts, hymnwriter, died 1748
Sun Nov 27 First Sunday of Advent
Wed Nov 30 Andrew, Apostle
Sat Dec 3 Francis Xavier, missionary to Asia, died 1552
Sun Dec 4 Second Sunday of Advent
Sun Dec 4 John of Damascus, theologian and hymnwriter, died around 749

Sun Dec 25 Nativity of Our Lord (II), Christmas Day
Sun Dec 25 Nativity of Our Lord (III), Christmas Day

Mon Dec 26 Stephen, Deacon and Martyr
Tue Dec 27 John, Apostle and Evangelist
Wed Dec 28 The Holy Innocents, Martyrs

Hi, GC…looks like you pretty much follow the Catholic liturgical year? It is very similar. Quite an eye opener of me.

 

[Esdra]

And, finally.

Sun Oct 2 Sixteenth Sunday after Pentecost
Tue Oct 4 Francis of Assisi, renewer of the church, died 1226
Tue Oct 4 Theodor Fliedner, renewer of society, died 1864
Thu Oct 6 William Tyndale, translator, martyr, died 1536
Fri Oct 7 Henry Melchior Muhlenberg, pastor in North America, died 1787
Sun Oct 9 Seventeenth Sunday after Pentecost
Mon Oct 10 Massie L. Kennard, renewer of the church, died 1996
Sat Oct 15 Teresa of Ávila (Teresa de Jesús), teacher, renewer of the church, died 1582
Sun Oct 16 Eighteenth Sunday after Pentecost
Mon Oct 17 Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, martyr, died around 115
Tue Oct 18 Luke, Evangelist
Sun Oct 23 Nineteenth Sunday after Pentecost
Sun Oct 23 James of Jerusalem, martyr, died around 62
Wed Oct 26 Philipp Nicolai, died 1608; Johann Heermann, died 1647; Paul Gerhardt, died 1676; hymnwriters
Fri Oct 28 Simon and Jude, Apostles
Sun Oct 30 Reformation Sunday
Mon Oct 31 Reformation Day
Tue Nov 1 All Saints Day
Thu Nov 3 Martín de Porres, renewer of society, died 1639
Sun Nov 6 All Saints Sunday
Mon Nov 7 John Christian Frederick Heyer, died 1873; Bartholomaeus Ziegenbalg, died 1719; Ludwig Nommensen, died 1918; missionaries
Fri Nov 11 Martin, Bishop of Tours, died 397
Fri Nov 11 Søren Aabye Kierkegaard, teacher, died 1855
Sun Nov 13 Twenty-second Sunday after Pentecost
Thu Nov 17 Elizabeth of Hungary, renewer of society, died 1231
Sun Nov 20 Christ the King
Wed Nov 23 Clement, Bishop of Rome, died around 100
Wed Nov 23 Miguel Agustín Pro, martyr, died 1927
Thu Nov 24 Justus Falckner, died 1723; Jehu Jones, died 1852; William Passavant, died 1894; pastors in North America
Fri Nov 25 Isaac Watts, hymnwriter, died 1748
Sun Nov 27 First Sunday of Advent
Wed Nov 30 Andrew, Apostle
Sat Dec 3 Francis Xavier, missionary to Asia, died 1552
Sun Dec 4 Second Sunday of Advent
Sun Dec 4 John of Damascus, theologian and hymnwriter, died around 749
Tue Dec 6 Nicholas, Bishop of Myra, died around 342
Wed Dec 7 Ambrose, Bishop of Milan, died 397
Sun Dec 11 Third Sunday of Advent
Tue Dec 13 Lucy, martyr, died 304
Wed Dec 14 John of the Cross, renewer of the church, died 1591
Sun Dec 18 Fourth Sunday of Advent
Tue Dec 20 Katharina von Bora Luther, renewer of the church, died 1552
Sat Dec 24 Nativity of Our Lord (I), Christmas Eve
Sun Dec 25 Nativity of Our Lord (II), Christmas Day
Sun Dec 25 Nativity of Our Lord (III), Christmas Day
Mon Dec 26 Stephen, Deacon and Martyr
Tue Dec 27 John, Apostle and Evangelist
Wed Dec 28 The Holy Innocents, Martyrs

Hi

thank you very much!

You see I am in a Baptist Church in the meantime (convert from Catholicism)
and so of course don’t know which feasts are in the protestant “liturgical year”.
Although Baptists usually don’t follow it the pastor has sometimes (at important feasts) asked what we were celebrating today (I just remember Reformation Day).
And I am always feeling so stupid, as I don’t know the feasts the Protestants have in their calendar and the Catholics don’t.

I’ll print this calendar out and in future I’ll know.

Thank you.

Esdra

 

[Esdra]

My moms side of the family is lutheran (protestant) and my dads side is catholic.

My moms side does not practice or celebrate any day relating to mary.

My dads side probably does, because I know they are very, very catholic. Especially my grandparents. They are the ones who installed the religion into my aunts and uncles anyways.

However I have never seen them or heard of them celebrating anything with mary.
I do know my Grandma always prayed for the family daily, and she liked to pray to mary.

Why? I don’t know, I think praying to God himself would be more affective, but thats just me.

Hi

yes, apparently you are right, no Marian feasts are celebrated in the Lutheran Evangelical Church (except August 15; see below).

I can see your point. Since I have been a Baptist, I also can’t understand why people are praying to Saints or to Mary and not going directly to Jesus who is the link between the gap that arose between us humans and God since the sin fall in Garden Eden!

But here in CAF I got to know why.

You must realize that especially the honoring and praying to Mary is deeply routed among Catholics (and I have found out even among the “New Wave Catholics”, like the Charismatic Renewal, it is so!)

Esdra

 

[BlueShadow123]

Hi

yes, apparently you are right, no Marian feasts are celebrated in the Lutheran Evangelical Church (except August 15; see below).

I can see your point. Since I have been a Baptist, I also can’t understand why people are praying to Saints or to Mary and not going directly to Jesus who is the link between the gap that arose between us humans and God since the sin fall in Garden Eden!

But here in CAF I got to know why.

You must realize that especially the honoring and praying to Mary is deeply routed among Catholics (and I have found out even among the “New Wave Catholics”, like the Charismatic Renewal, it is so!)

Esdra

Yes I know they hold mary very up high. Jesus says that there is only one mediator to God and that is through Jesus.

I don’t know why they would pray to mary or saints if they could pray to God themselves.
They want the mary and the saints to pray to God for them, but to me that is extremely pointless, because God will hear your prayer if you pray to him in the first place. Others praying to him for you shouldn’t change the outcome. Its not like if you have 5 people praying for you, the chances God will listen are greater. At least they shouldn’t be. He will answer you anytime you pray to him. this is also why I have never asked somebody else to pray for me if I can do it myself. Its pointless. If i have a problem in life, I will pray to God myself. He will answer me. I shouldn’t need others to pray for me ( in addition to me praying already) to get a response from God.

However everytime I pray to God, he ends up answering me anyways, so I guess the way I pray is just fine anyways. And i don’t need to ask others to pray for me to get a response from him either.

 

[WorkerPriest]

While this thread is not intended to be a discussion of the merits of praying or invoking the saints, or of asking the saints to pray for us, I did want to make a clarification.

There’s a significant difference between invoking the saints, and remembering or honoring them. Lutherans remember the great saints, both Biblical and after the Biblical period, for the grace God has shown through them. We can remember and honor the Blessed Virgin Mary for the great works of God done through her, and honor her as a model of faith.

There has been controversy in the Lutheran stream of the Reformation about certain dogmas regarding the Blessed Virgin, and so, some of the newer feasts on the Roman calendar which point to dogmas not universally affirmed (or not required for affirmation) in the Lutheran churches do not appear. While Lutherans are free to believe in the ancient and venerable opinions regarding the Blessed Virgin as immaculately conceived, ever virgin, preserved from sin, and bodily assumed into heaven, since these opinions emerge after the Biblical period, they are not binding dogmas in our communion.

To remember and to honor is different than to invoke (without even touching on the difference between invokation and requesting to pray on one’s behalf, which is significant.) Lutherans, in our liturgical calendar, remember and honor the saints for what God has done through them, and how they point us to Christ.

Grace and peace.

Yes I know they hold mary very up high. Jesus says that there is only one mediator to God and that is through Jesus.

I don’t know why they would pray to mary or saints if they could pray to God themselves.
They want the mary and the saints to pray to God for them, but to me that is extremely pointless, because God will hear your prayer if you pray to him in the first place. Others praying to him for you shouldn’t change the outcome. Its not like if you have 5 people praying for you, the chances God will listen are greater. At least they shouldn’t be. He will answer you anytime you pray to him. this is also why I have never asked somebody else to pray for me if I can do it myself. Its pointless. If i have a problem in life, I will pray to God myself. He will answer me. I shouldn’t need others to pray for me ( in addition to me praying already) to get a response from God.

However everytime I pray to God, he ends up answering me anyways, so I guess the way I pray is just fine anyways. And i don’t need to ask others to pray for me to get a response from him either.

 

[Esdra]

My moms side of the family is lutheran (protestant) and my dads side is catholic.

My moms side does not practice or celebrate any day relating to mary.

My dads side probably does, because I know they are very, very catholic. Especially my grandparents. They are the ones who installed the religion into my aunts and uncles anyways.

However I have never seen them or heard of them celebrating anything with mary.
I do know my Grandma always prayed for the family daily, and she liked to pray to mary.

Why? I don’t know, I think praying to God himself would be more affective, but thats just me.

Hi

I again see your point and can agree with you because I think so too.

BUT: If I may ask, which denomination do you belong to?
I am a Baptitst and among us praying for each other is most important! And believe me, it helps if you have someone praying with you and showing that you are worthy to him. - Also psychological seen.
Praying for each other is one of the core peaces of the “reborn” Protestants!

esdra

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Yes indeed - Christ became Man to mediate His salvation through us through His sacred Humanity, the Church, the Bible etc.

We go to God, not directly, but through Jesus in His Humanity, His Church, His teachings and the Communion of Saints.

It is God’s Will therefore that our salvation is mediated. We pray for one another, either in this life or in the next - we are all one and alive in Christ’s Body.

I am always struck by our Lord’s words “Whatsoever you do to the least of my brethren, that you do unto Me.”

In His Humanity, He identifies with us all. To serve others is to serve Christ, to see Christ in others. God is no longer “up there” and removed from us. He is “down here” and so close to us in His Humanity, having assumed it and having saved it.

To ask the Saints to “pray unto God for us” is to have relationships in Christ with people whose lives represent Jesus to the nth degree for us. To see them and to invoke their prayers is to go to Jesus as well. In fact, our relationship with the Communion of Saints in the Body of Christ IS what saves us.

Christianity is not about “God and me.” And we ourselves are called, as Christians, to mediate Christ to others after we are brought up and transformed in His Light.

We are meant to, thereafter, reflect that Light to others around us.

Jesus lives in us and works through us. It is not otherwise. (And the Seventh Ecumenical Council did, I believe, declare as dogma the invocation of all the Saints by us).

Alex

 

[BlueShadow123]

While this thread is not intended to be a discussion of the merits of praying or invoking the saints, or of asking the saints to pray for us, I did want to make a clarification.

There’s a significant difference between invoking the saints, and remembering or honoring them. Lutherans remember the great saints, both Biblical and after the Biblical period, for the grace God has shown through them. We can remember and honor the Blessed Virgin Mary for the great works of God done through her, and honor her as a model of faith.

There has been controversy in the Lutheran stream of the Reformation about certain dogmas regarding the Blessed Virgin, and so, some of the newer feasts on the Roman calendar which point to dogmas not universally affirmed (or not required for affirmation) in the Lutheran churches do not appear. While Lutherans are free to believe in the ancient and venerable opinions regarding the Blessed Virgin as immaculately conceived, ever virgin, preserved from sin, and bodily assumed into heaven, since these opinions emerge after the Biblical period, they are not binding dogmas in our communion.

To remember and to honor is different than to invoke (without even touching on the difference between invokation and requesting to pray on one’s behalf, which is significant.) Lutherans, in our liturgical calendar, remember and honor the saints for what God has done through them, and how they point us to Christ.

Grace and peace.

I know. But I also know that I do not ask others to pray for me, and I only pray to God.

Not saints, or mary. God, and God alone.

Amazingly enough, he always answers my prayers anyways, so obviously what I’m doing is just fine.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

Hi

thanks.

Do have by chance a Lutheran liturgical calendar handy?
I would be interested which feasts actually ARE celebreted and which are not.

But in General feasts for the Saints are not celebrated, right?
Like St. Martin, St. Niclas, St. Barbara, St. Elizabeth (to name some known ones. )

Esdra

I don’t have one handy, but I know that we just passed the celebration of St Andrew the Apostle on Nov 30th. I’m fairly certain that the Feast of the Immaculate Conception is not on our list.

 

[pablope]

While this thread is not intended to be a discussion of the merits of praying or invoking the saints, or of asking the saints to pray for us, I did want to make a clarification.

There’s a significant difference between invoking the saints, and remembering or honoring them. Lutherans remember the great saints, both Biblical and after the Biblical period, for the grace God has shown through them. We can remember and honor the Blessed Virgin Mary for the great works of God done through her, and honor her as a model of faith.

There has been controversy in the Lutheran stream of the Reformation about certain dogmas regarding the Blessed Virgin, and so, some of the newer feasts on the Roman calendar which point to dogmas not universally affirmed (or not required for affirmation) in the Lutheran churches do not appear. While Lutherans are free to believe in the ancient and venerable opinions regarding the Blessed Virgin as immaculately conceived, ever virgin, preserved from sin, and bodily assumed into heaven, since these opinions emerge after the Biblical period, they are not binding dogmas in our communion.

To remember and to honor is different than to invoke (without even touching on the difference between invokation and requesting to pray on one’s behalf, which is significant.) Lutherans, in our liturgical calendar, remember and honor the saints for what God has done through them, and how they point us to Christ.

Grace and peace.

Hi, WP…out of curiosity, how do you define to “invoke” a saint when praying? I went through GC’s liturgical calendar…they do have Aug 15 as a day for Mary. Do you follow the same calendar? If not, do you have a day for Mary too?

pablope

 

[WorkerPriest]

There are minor difference in Lutheran liturgical calendars, sometimes because of national origins (peculiar saints remembered in Norway, or Germany, or Finland, etc.) I think that the one provided below is pretty normative for Lutherans in the US, though, despite our many nations of immigration.

I was afraid that my imprecission on distinguishing between invokation and requesting the prayers of the saints might cause confusion. What I hoped to distinguish between, is the difference between placing one’s hope and trust in the saint for providence or help (invoking for the direct activity of that saint to rescue or save us, which could easily become idolotry) and the humble petition to ask the prayers of the saints in heaven, which we know they do for us because Holy Scripture shows us such truth. Scripture reveals that saints pray for each other on earth, as well as in heaven above, since we form one mystical body in Christ that transcends life and death.

The Lutheran Confessions condemn, as I believe formal Roman Catholic teaching also condemns, making idols out of the saints by putting our faith, hope, and trust in them to save us. However, the Lutheran Confessions do not condemn the idea that the saints in heaven pray for us, and do not forbid Lutherans asking for their prayers on our behalf. The key idea is where we put our faith and hope-- and that must always be in Christ alone. This is how Luther (and generations of Lutherans after him) could still pray the Rosary without conflict to conscience or the Confessions.

I hope that made more sense. Grace and peace to you.

Hi, WP…out of curiosity, how do you define to “invoke” a saint when praying? I went through GC’s liturgical calendar…they do have Aug 15 as a day for Mary. Do you follow the same calendar? If not, do you have a day for Mary too?

pablope

 

[pablope]

There are minor difference in Lutheran liturgical calendars, sometimes because of national origins (peculiar saints remembered in Norway, or Germany, or Finland, etc.) I think that the one provided below is pretty normative for Lutherans in the US, though, despite our many nations of immigration.

I was afraid that my imprecission on distinguishing between invokation and requesting the prayers of the saints might cause confusion. What I hoped to distinguish between, is the difference between placing one’s hope and trust in the saint for providence or help (invoking for the direct activity of that saint to rescue or save us, which could easily become idolotry) and the humble petition to ask the prayers of the saints in heaven, which we know they do for us because Holy Scripture shows us such truth. Scripture reveals that saints pray for each other on earth, as well as in heaven above, since we form one mystical body in Christ that transcends life and death.

The Lutheran Confessions condemn, as I believe formal Roman Catholic teaching also condemns, making idols out of the saints by putting our faith, hope, and trust in them to save us. However, the Lutheran Confessions do not condemn the idea that the saints in heaven pray for us, and do not forbid Lutherans asking for their prayers on our behalf. The key idea is where we put our faith and hope-- and that must always be in Christ alone. This is how Luther (and generations of Lutherans after him) could still pray the Rosary without conflict to conscience or the Confessions.

I hope that made more sense. Grace and peace to you.

Thanks for the clarification, WP. I think both the RCC and the LC are on the same page on the invocation of saints versus praying for intercession. I read in a past article that Luther had a reverence for the BVM, and continued her devotion to her. So, I had always wondered, when did the other protestant denominations start losing this reverence for the BVM? Anyway, I guess this is another topic for another time.

Grace and peace to you too…

 

[qui_est_ce]

I know. But I also know that I do not ask others to pray for me, and I only pray to God.

This concept is very foreign to me. I always pray for my children and for my friends in need. Right now I’m praying very hard for my brother-in-law, who has lung cancer.

It always makes me feel better when others tell me they are praying for me in hard times.

I just can’t imagine life without praying for others and others praying for me.