Immaculate Conception of Mary + Lutherans?

[WorkerPriest]

Luther indeed had a lot of reverence for the Blessed Mother… some of his Christmas and Advent sermons on her festival days are works of art and love for her and her Son.

Thanks for the clarification, WP. I think both the RCC and the LC are on the same page on the invocation of saints versus praying for intercession. I read in a past article that Luther had a reverence for the BVM, and continued her devotion to her. So, I had always wondered, when did the other protestant denominations start losing this reverence for the BVM? Anyway, I guess this is another topic for another time.

Grace and peace to you too…

 

[BlueShadow123]

This concept is very foreign to me. I always pray for my children and for my friends in need. Right now I’m praying very hard for my brother-in-law, who has lung cancer.

It always makes me feel better when others tell me they are praying for me in hard times.

I just can’t imagine life without praying for others and others praying for me.

If somebody asked me to pray for them, I would. I also would if they did not believe in God.
Because if they don’t believe in God, they obviously would not pray. So I would do it for them. But I do not ask others to pray for me. I do not need to, because God always ends up answering my prayers anyways. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

[qui_est_ce]

If somebody asked me to pray for them, I would. I also would if they did not believe in God.
Because if they don’t believe in God, they obviously would not pray. So I would do it for them. But I do not ask others to pray for me. I do not need to, because God always ends up answering my prayers anyways. There is nothing wrong with that.

Why bother praying? God already knows your needs.

 

[BlueShadow123]

Why bother praying? God already knows your needs.

Well then it would depend on what you mean by praying.

By praying, I simply think of what I need- which I would assume God is able to see or know it.

Its not like I bow down and start praying out loud. I don’t do that. Its unnecessary for me.

God knows that I was going to pray, so of course he’d know my needs. Me praying is a way of talking to God almost. Nothing wrong with that, now is there?

 

[WorkerPriest]

Friend,

You seem to have crafted a very independent religion for yourself, but this practice does not seem to reflect the witness of the Scriptures, nor of the Church over the last 2000 years (much longer, if you add the faithful witness of the Hebrews.) Moses prayed for the people, and God did not destroy them. Christ teaches His disciples to pray, and in the most famous of His instructions to pray, He gives them petitions in the plural-- give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses… as we forgive the tresspases of others… lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one, and so on. It would seem that Christ Himself gave us direction to pray for each other, which would mean that we should receive the prayers of others on our behalf. That’s just part of being one body in Christ.

The Apostles, too, instruct us to pray for each other. It would seem that if we wanted to be obedient to Christ and His Apostles, particularly as they are presented in the Holy Scriptures, we would pray often for each other.

Perhaps something to ponder. Peace to you.

Well then it would depend on what you mean by praying.

By praying, I simply think of what I need- which I would assume God is able to see or know it.

Its not like I bow down and start praying out loud. I don’t do that. Its unnecessary for me.

God knows that I was going to pray, so of course he’d know my needs. Me praying is a way of talking to God almost. Nothing wrong with that, now is there?

 

[BlueShadow123]

Friend,

You seem to have crafted a very independent religion for yourself, but this practice does not seem to reflect the witness of the Scriptures, nor of the Church over the last 2000 years (much longer, if you add the faithful witness of the Hebrews.) Moses prayed for the people, and God did not destroy them. Christ teaches His disciples to pray, and in the most famous of His instructions to pray, He gives them petitions in the plural-- give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses… as we forgive the tresspases of others… lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one, and so on. It would seem that Christ Himself gave us direction to pray for each other, which would mean that we should receive the prayers of others on our behalf. That’s just part of being one body in Christ.

The Apostles, too, instruct us to pray for each other. It would seem that if we wanted to be obedient to Christ and His Apostles, particularly as they are presented in the Holy Scriptures, we would pray often for each other.

Perhaps something to ponder. Peace to you.

an independant religion?
Just because I don’t ask people to pray for me?
You are hilarious. Get real buddy.

 

[brumano]

Okay, how then was The Lord Himself Immaculately conceived if His own Mother was not? Now you can’t just really say something like: well, He was and she was not, you have to really explain it throughouly and that doctrine has to stand up on it’s own merits, as the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary has stood for over thousands of years. You see you can’t just deny an important revealled truth, and then just have a void instead. It’s just not going to work.

 

[WorkerPriest]

Friend,

I wasn’t trying to be funny, and I am quite real. I used the term for religion in its definitional sense, which included the non-scriptural piety you described as part of your practice. I am not attempting to needle you, nor provoke you. I am only offering you the advice of Holy Scripture, the witness of millenia of Christians in the Church, and the words of Christ, to ponder alongside your practices. Perhaps it will be something to discuss with your pastor, or simply to reflect on as you pray.

Peace be with you.

an independant religion?
Just because I don’t ask people to pray for me?
You are hilarious. Get real buddy.

 

[WorkerPriest]

Friend,

I’m not sure if you directed that at me, becasue I really don’t have any issue with the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary. I do note, that some within the Reformation, and outside of it, are not persuaded… and since it is not a doctrine established by Holy Scripture, Lutherans do not make it binding on consciences one way or the other.

Peace to you.

Okay, how then was The Lord Himself Immaculately conceived if His own Mother was not? Now you can’t just really say something like: well, He was and she was not, you have to really explain it throughouly and that doctrine has to stand up on it’s own merits, as the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary has stood for over thousands of years. You see you can’t just deny an important revealled truth, and then just have a void instead. It’s just not going to work.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Okay, how then was The Lord Himself Immaculately conceived if His own Mother was not? Now you can’t just really say something like: well, He was and she was not, you have to really explain it throughouly and that doctrine has to stand up on it’s own merits, as the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary has stood for over thousands of years. You see you can’t just deny an important revealled truth, and then just have a void instead. It’s just not going to work.

Amen. What a great reply, friend!

 

[GaryTaylor]

Okay, how then was The Lord Himself Immaculately conceived if His own Mother was not? Now you can’t just really say something like: well, He was and she was not, you have to really explain it throughouly and that doctrine has to stand up on it’s own merits, as the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary has stood for over thousands of years. You see you can’t just deny an important revealled truth, and then just have a void instead. It’s just not going to work.

God of course, He can do ANYTHING:thumbsup:

 

[Esdra]

This concept is very foreign to me. I always pray for my children and for my friends in need. Right now I’m praying very hard for my brother-in-law, who has lung cancer.

It always makes me feel better when others tell me they are praying for me in hard times.

I just can’t imagine life without praying for others and others praying for me.

Hi

yes, the same counts for me.
It’s really great to know that someone is praying for you or it’s also nice that I can pray for someone.

We Christians are not meant to be alone. We need our community. Other Christians with whom we can exchange, pray for and get prayed for by them and worship together our marvellous god!

Blueshadow,
of course God will answer your prayers, even if noone prays for you and you are praying yourself to God/Jesus, at least you are His son and Scripture is clear about answering prayers: read Mt 7:7-10 or Jn 14:13+14
But it’s nice if you have someone whom you trust, whom you can tell your problems and with whom you can pray about it. - God will answer the prayer in both ways. But for me also the psychological aspect which has praying for each other has is important!

You still haven’t answered to which denomination you belong to, this would really interst me. Don’t you have prayer groups? There praying for each other is actually the topic and besides worshipping/having service together and bible study this is, IMO, one of the core peaces of “reborn Christian groups”.

Esdra

 

[pablope]

Hi

yes, the same counts for me.
It’s really great to know that someone is praying for you or it’s also nice that I can pray for someone.

We Christians are not meant to be alone. We need our community. Other Christians with whom we can exchange, pray for and get prayed for by them and worship together our marvellous god!

Blueshadow,
of course God will answer your prayers, even if noone prays for you and you are praying yourself to God/Jesus, at least you are His son and Scripture is clear about answering prayers: read Mt 7:7-10 or Jn 14:13+14
But it’s nice if you have someone whom you trust, whom you can tell your problems and with whom you can pray about it. - God will answer the prayer in both ways. But for me also the psychological aspect which has praying for each other has is important!

You still haven’t answered to which denomination you belong to, this would really interst me. Don’t you have prayer groups? There praying for each other is actually the topic and besides worshipping/having service together and bible study this is, IMO, one of the core peaces of “reborn Christian groups”.

Esdra

I am not aware of how you pray or ask God when asking for God’s divine help. I, and most of my fellow Catholics, will agree, that when we petition God’s help, it is always according to His will, not our will…as per the Lord’s Prayer…“thy will be done”. And yes, we always pray for each other…for all sinners…especially when the Chaplet of Divine Mercy is prayed.

 

[Esdra]

I am not aware of how you pray or ask God when asking for God’s divine help. I, and most of my fellow Catholics, will agree, that when we petition God’s help, it is always according to His will, not our will…as per the Lord’s Prayer…“thy will be done”. And yes, we always pray for each other…for all sinners…especially when the Chaplet of Divine Mercy is prayed.

Well, I am not sure if this post was adressed to me or to Blue,actually.
Anyway! You know it was really a hard lecture the “thy will be done”…
But in the meantime I can trust god and know that he will answer my prayers in HIS way and not like I want Him to.

Mhm, Catholics tend to pray differently, right? (than “reborns” I mean)
Or are there “free prayers” as well?

Esdra

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Hi

yes, apparently you are right, no Marian feasts are celebrated in the Lutheran Evangelical Church (except August 15; see below).

I can see your point. Since I have been a Baptist, I also can’t understand why people are praying to Saints or to Mary and not going directly to Jesus who is the link between the gap that arose between us humans and God since the sin fall in Garden Eden!

But here in CAF I got to know why.

You must realize that especially the honoring and praying to Mary is deeply routed among Catholics (and I have found out even among the “New Wave Catholics”, like the Charismatic Renewal, it is so!)

Esdra

As for other Marian feasts, hmmm…

Lutherans honour the feast of the Annunciation - I distinctly remember Mary being involved with that somewhere . . .

The Presentation of the Lord in the Temple on February 2nd . . . didn’t the Virgin Mary figure in that as well … something about a sword piercing her heart so that the thoughts of many may be laid bare?

The Nativity of Christ/Chrismas . . . hmmm, I don’t know much about Evangelical Christianity, but do you guys still believe Mary is the Mother of Jesus, especially at the stable in Bethlehem?

The feast of the Conception of our Lady on December 8th may not be there, but the presence of August 15th as the falling asleep/assumption of the Virgin Mary - that was because she was holy from her very beginning in the womb of St Anne, correct?

May 31st is the feast of the Visitation which I like because of that prayer the Virgin Mary. How did it go? My soul doth magnify the Lord, or something like that (?)

Then there’s the Wedding at Cana in Galilee where the Virgin Mary tells, well, everyone “Whatever He tells you to do, do it.”

Good Friday? I think she was there under the Cross, wasn’t she?

In short, lots of places in the Lutheran calendar where Mary is both part of the scene and commemorated.

Alex

 

[Esdra]

]As for other Marian feasts, hmmm…

Lutherans honour the feast of the Annunciation - I distinctly remember Mary being involved with that somewhere . . .

The Presentation of the Lord in the Temple on February 2nd . . . didn’t the Virgin Mary figure in that as well … something about a sword piercing her heart so that the thoughts of many may be laid bare?

The Nativity of Christ/Chrismas . . . hmmm, I don’t know much about Evangelical Christianity, but do you guys still believe Mary is the Mother of Jesus, especially at the stable in Bethlehem?

You are cynical here, right? Of course “we evangelicals” (what ever concrete denominations you mean by that!) know that Mary is the mother of Jesus and of course we know the Christmas story in the Gospel of St. Luke.
Guess what this is even read in “bible-only” denominations at Christmas! (one of the few feasts of the year where the liturgical calendar is observed!)

The feast of the Conception of our Lady on December 8th may not be there, but the presence of August 15th as the falling asleep/assumption of the Virgin Mary - that was because she was holy from her very beginning in the womb of St Anne, correct?

May 31st is the feast of the Visitation which I like because of that prayer the Virgin Mary. How did it go? My soul doth magnify the Lord, or something like that (?)

Then there’s the Wedding at Cana in Galilee where the Virgin Mary tells, well, everyone “Whatever He tells you to do, do it.”

Good Friday? I think she was there under the Cross, wasn’t she?

In short, lots of places in the Lutheran calendar where Mary is both part of the scene and commemorated.

Well, actually we were talking about “Marian feasts”, not where in the liturgical Calendar Mary is to be found… (concerning Good Friday for example.) And I think you will agree that Jesus is on Good Friday the main actor, don’t you?

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Sorry to have come across as a bit cynical . . .

For me, Christmas et al. are also Marian feasts. I don’t believe one can separate Jesus from Mary and vice-versa.

Christ is truly the “main actor” on Good Friday, but His Mother stood underneath the Cross and, according to the Fathers, she was covered in Her Son’s Blood.

Mary submitted her will to God, as we know, and gave herself to her Son (Who took His Flesh from her).

Whenever I read about Christ’s Life, I feel Mary’s presence near her Son.

So even in the so-called “Marian” feasts, Christ is the main actor. But Mary is always right there beside Him, with Him - and He obviously wouldn’t have wanted it any other way.

Cheers,

Alex

 

[Esdra]

Sorry to have come across as a bit cynical . . .

No problem, apology accepted!

For me, Christmas et al. are also Marian feasts. I don’t believe one can separate Jesus from Mary and vice-versa.

Hmm, I do know that Catholics honour and love Mary very much, but honestly: I would have never come to idea to see Christmas as a “Marian feast”…
I can understand Evangelicals saying that through the honouring of Mary Jesus is not in the centre of one’s life anymore. (No offense, just my 2 cents.)

Christ is truly the “main actor” on Good Friday, but His Mother stood underneath the Cross and, according to the Fathers, she was covered in Her Son’s Blood.

Oh god! I am glad I have never known that part of ST (I was raised more or less Catholic). That’s cruel and disgusting. Imagine literally! shakemyselfofdisgust

Mary submitted her will to God, as we know, and gave herself to her Son (Who took His Flesh from her).

Agreed to the first part. But actually I’ve never heard of the part in bold…
Could you explain please? Sounds strange to me.
I’ve learned in my time being a Baptist know that Jesus has given our life for us.
But I suppose you don’t mean that here.

Whenever I read about Christ’s Life, I feel Mary’s presence near her Son.

Well, even as I still was a more or less devout Catholic, I was never that strong in honouring Mary… So I’m not able to understand that, I guess.

So even in the so-called “Marian” feasts, Christ is the main actor. But Mary is always right there beside Him, with Him - and He obviously wouldn’t have wanted it any other way.

Well, if you take the Immaculate Conception or Assumption of Mary, I would not say that Christ is here the main actor. - Okay, with immaculate conception maybe!
But I guess not concerning the Assumption (Although this is again part of the ST, so I am actually not really sure what’s really celebrated here…) - Feel free to explain!

Cheers,

Esdra

 

[JonNC]

As for other Marian feasts, hmmm…

Lutherans honour the feast of the Annunciation - I distinctly remember Mary being involved with that somewhere . . .

The Presentation of the Lord in the Temple on February 2nd . . . didn’t the Virgin Mary figure in that as well … something about a sword piercing her heart so that the thoughts of many may be laid bare?

The Nativity of Christ/Chrismas . . . hmmm, I don’t know much about Evangelical Christianity, but do you guys still believe Mary is the Mother of Jesus, especially at the stable in Bethlehem?

The feast of the Conception of our Lady on December 8th may not be there, but the presence of August 15th as the falling asleep/assumption of the Virgin Mary - that was because she was holy from her very beginning in the womb of St Anne, correct?

May 31st is the feast of the Visitation which I like because of that prayer the Virgin Mary. How did it go? My soul doth magnify the Lord, or something like that (?)

Then there’s the Wedding at Cana in Galilee where the Virgin Mary tells, well, everyone “Whatever He tells you to do, do it.”

Good Friday? I think she was there under the Cross, wasn’t she?

In short, lots of places in the Lutheran calendar where Mary is both part of the scene and commemorated.

Alex

Thanks for this Alex.
BTW, we sang a hymn last Wednesday - in our hymnal - based on the Magificat.

Jon

 

[Esdra]

Thanks for this Alex.
BTW, we sang a hymn last Wednesday - in our hymnal - based on the Magificat.

Jon

Hi Jon,

to what did that “Thanks for this” refer to?

But not to seeing Mary at every feast in the liturgical calendar and seeing Her always beside Jesus, as Alex has written?

Actually, I am rather confused that Lutherans do honour Mary (actually more than I had expected.)

Normally you hear among Catholics (at least I did): “Among Lutherans there is no Mary” - which means that she isn’t honoured and Christ is the very centre of their believe. (Actually similar then in my Church, which you so don’t like, Jon! )
But as I have never been in a “real Lutheran service”, but only in “mixed services between Reformed and Lutherans” (2-4 times was that), I guess I can’t get that fully…

Esdra