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brb3
Guest
What does our Modern Church say to this ?
Is he considered a heretic or posthumously anathematized ?
Is he considered a heretic or posthumously anathematized ?
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mardukm
Guest
It’s not exactly true that St. Thomas did not believe in the IC. What he believed is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches - that from the moment of SPIRITUAL CONCEPTION, Mary was perfectly united to God. The issue is that St. Thomas believed, like a lot of people in those days, that the SPIRITUAL conception (the “quickening” - i.e., the moment that the soul is infused into the body) occurred at a different time than the PHYSICAL conception (according to some accounts, up to 40 days after the physical conception). Now, we understand that spiritual conception occurs at the same time as physical conception. But the doctrine of the IC has ALWAYS been about the SPIRITUAL conception of Mary, not her physical conception.What does our Modern Church say to this ?
Is he considered a heretic or posthumously anathematized ?
To repeat, St. Thomas indeed believed that Mary was perfectly united to God from the moment of her SPIRITUAL conception, which is exactly what the doctrine of the IC teaches.
Blessings,
Marduk
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1ke
Guest
Your statement is not accurate vis-a-vis Thomas Aquinas.What does our Modern Church say to this ?
Furthermore, the “modern Church” doesn’t have anything to say to this
No, he is a canonized Saint.Is he considered a heretic or posthumously anathematized ?
One cannot be a heretic when one has not taught heresy. And why would the Church “anathematize” (sic) him?
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brb3
Guest
Well, he believed she was redeemed, thus not w/o sin at conception.It’s not exactly true that St. Thomas did not believe in the IC. What he believed is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches - that from the moment of SPIRITUAL CONCEPTION, Mary was perfectly united to God. The issue is that St. Thomas believed, like a lot of people in those days, that the SPIRITUAL conception (the “quickening” - i.e., the moment that the soul is infused into the body) occurred at a different time than the PHYSICAL conception (according to some accounts, up to 40 days after the physical conception). Now, we understand that spiritual conception occurs at the same time as physical conception. But the doctrine of the IC has ALWAYS been about the SPIRITUAL conception of Mary, not her physical conception.
To repeat, St. Thomas indeed believed that Mary was perfectly united to God from the moment of her SPIRITUAL conception, which is exactly what the doctrine of the IC teaches.
Blessings,
Marduk
Also, how do you know at what moment the spirit is birthed within a fertilized egg ?
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1ke
Guest
Being redeemed does not mean she was “thus no w/o sin”. The doctrine of the IC says it is by the merits of her son, that means she too needed the redeemer and was redeemed.Well, he believed she was redeemed, thus not w/o sin at conception.
The soul is not “birthed”. It is specially created by God. The Church tells us it is at conception.Also, how do you know at what moment the spirit is birthed within a fertilized egg ?
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brb3
Guest
Also, does the Church reference footnote the beliefs of St THOMAS in their recent IC teachings on Mary ?
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davidv
Guest
This does not follow. As a human, Mary needed redemption. In her case Jesus’ saving acts were applied to her prior to her conception.Well, he believed she was redeemed, thus not w/o sin at conception.
How does this matter?Also, how do you know at what moment the spirit is birthed within a fertilized egg ?
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brb3
Guest
Where in scripture do we learn these details ? Where in science do we ? Where in tradition?The soul is not “birthed”. It is specially created by God. The Church tells us it is at conception.
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brb3
Guest
My point is… St.THOMAS knew the Scriptures & Tradition of Church. So, if he wasn’t sure about Mary’s IC … how can we ?
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Genesis315
Guest
St. Thomas Aquinas went back and forth and ultimately affirmed it–unfortunately, he argued against it in his most famous work, the Summa (although, in his period of denial, he still believed her to be sanctified in the womb immediately after conception).
First, he affirmed it: “Such was the purity of the Blessed Virgin Mary, who was exempt from both original and actual sin.” [Com. in I Sent, d. 44, q. 1, a. 3, ad 3]
Later, in the Summa, he explicitely denies it: “The Blessed Virgin did indeed contract original sin.” [Summa theologiae IIIa, q. 27, a. 2, ad 2]
Ultimately, though, he accepted it: “For she was most pure because she incurred the stain neither of original sin nor of mortal sin nor of venial sin.” [Expositio super salutatione angelica]
First, he affirmed it: “Such was the purity of the Blessed Virgin Mary, who was exempt from both original and actual sin.” [Com. in I Sent, d. 44, q. 1, a. 3, ad 3]
Later, in the Summa, he explicitely denies it: “The Blessed Virgin did indeed contract original sin.” [Summa theologiae IIIa, q. 27, a. 2, ad 2]
Ultimately, though, he accepted it: “For she was most pure because she incurred the stain neither of original sin nor of mortal sin nor of venial sin.” [Expositio super salutatione angelica]
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1ke
Guest
Because at the time of St Thomas the IC had not been dogmatically defined. Now, it has been. It has been infallibly defined by the Church, therefore w emay be SURE about it.My point is… St.THOMAS knew the Scriptures & Tradition of Church. So, if he wasn’t sure about Mary’s IC … how can we ?
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Genesis315
Guest
The Church, in the person of the Roman Pontiff, has definitively judged the issue. Even if you don’t believe in papal infallibility, the whole Church received the teaching and has continually taught it as such. That’s how we can be sure.My point is… St.THOMAS knew the Scriptures & Tradition of Church. So, if he wasn’t sure about Mary’s IC … how can we ?
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brb3
Guest
Yes, but the Church teaches we must accept Everything he wrote/taught. And, clearly he was at best UNSURE on the IC question.Because at the time of St Thomas the IC had not been dogmatically defined. Now, it has been. It has been infallibly defined by the Church, therefore w emay be SURE about it.
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runningdude
Guest
No.Also, does the Church reference footnote the beliefs of St THOMAS in their recent IC teachings on Mary ?
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runningdude
Guest
The church does not teach this.Yes, but the Church teaches we must accept Everything he wrote/taught. …
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1ke
Guest
No, the Church does not teach this.Yes, but the Church teaches we must accept Everything he wrote/taught.
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brb3
Guest
This would seem totally c/w scripture… that she need to be redeemed of ORIGINAL SIN. SCRIPTURE TEACHING: All have sinned and fallen short of glory of God.…in his most famous work, the Summa (although, in his period of denial, he still believed her to be sanctified in the womb immediately after conception).
And, also in light of her own TESTIMONY …that she had been redeemed !!!
Since when does 18th century ‘revelations’ trump Paul & Mary’s own HS received inspiration !!
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runningdude
Guest
Saint Thomas was a philosopher who attempted to use reason to find true. In some matters, Saint Thomas was correct, and in some matters he wasn’t.
Now, Saint Thomas will concur, that it takes both faith and reason to find divine truth. Lot’s of philosophers attempted to find true, but could only come up with conflicting answers. Thus the Catholic Church was tasked by Christ to sort out truth.
When the church defines a doctrine, it is merely stating something that was always true. It has use language developed by Saint Thomas to express this truth, while disregarding that which was find to be untrue from his writings.
Simply put, not everything written by Saint Thomas of Aquinas turned out to be true. However, no body had asked the questions he was attempting to answer yet. Only after many others had contributed their thoughts could the church sort through the matter and find the truth!
Now, Saint Thomas will concur, that it takes both faith and reason to find divine truth. Lot’s of philosophers attempted to find true, but could only come up with conflicting answers. Thus the Catholic Church was tasked by Christ to sort out truth.
When the church defines a doctrine, it is merely stating something that was always true. It has use language developed by Saint Thomas to express this truth, while disregarding that which was find to be untrue from his writings.
Simply put, not everything written by Saint Thomas of Aquinas turned out to be true. However, no body had asked the questions he was attempting to answer yet. Only after many others had contributed their thoughts could the church sort through the matter and find the truth!
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1ke
Guest
Are you a Catholic? You seem a little confused on Scripture and Tradition.This would seem totally c/w scripture… that she need to be redeemed of ORIGINAL SIN. SCRIPTURE TEACHING: All have sinned and fallen short of glory of God.
And, also in light of her own TESTIMONY …that she had been redeemed !!!
Since when does 18th century ‘revelations’ trump Paul & Mary’s own HS received inspiration !!
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brb3
Guest
You’re saying in this single case, on Mary’s IC … we can ignore his writings ?No, the Church does not teach this.
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