Immaculate Conception vs. Annunciation

[jbuck919]

It is a matter of obedience to lawful authority. Does it bother you that the secular authorities and lawful behaviors vary from country to country? Why should it be otherwise for ecclesiastical authorities and behaviors?QUOTE}

It seems to me that you are taking both me and yourself too seriously. It’s not much of an analogy, is it, the ability of sovereign nations to make their own laws from scratch and the authority of local bishops’ conferences in relatively trivial matters when the Pope decides everything? When he gives them some true as opposed to petty autonomy, as in deciding whether priests in their country will be allowed to marry, then I might take this seriously.

 

[tee_eff_em]

tee_eff_em;1718196:

It is a matter of obedience to lawful authority. Does it bother you that the secular authorities and lawful behaviors vary from country to country? Why should it be otherwise for ecclesiastical authorities and behaviors?

It seems to me that you are taking both me and yourself too seriously. It’s not much of an analogy, is it, the ability of sovereign nations to make their own laws from scratch and the authority of local bishops’ conferences in relatively trivial matters when the Pope decides everything?

I apologize for expressing it poorly.

My point was not that sovereign nations make their own laws. My point was that: *Because *sovereign nations make their own laws, the *same behavior *(eg “driving on the right-hand side of the road”) is made sinful (breaking the law is an offense against the Fourth Commandment) in some countries while remaining neutral in others.

tee

 

[yessisan]

So then, do we in the US have to or don’t have to go to Mass? Why would it be a HDO in the US and not in other places??

 

[tee_eff_em]

So then, do we in the US have to or don’t have to go to Mass?

In the US, we are obliged to assist at Mass today, 8-Dec-2006 (or yesterday evening).

Why would it be a HDO in the US and not in other places??

It is a holyday of obligation in the US because it is a universal holyday of obligation. In other places, the Episcopal Conference may suppress the obligation (or may translate the day to a Sunday outside of the Advent and Christmas seasons, but I’ve never heard of such). The Episcopal Conference in the US, the USCCB, does not suppress the obligation because the USA is under the Patronage of the Immaculate Conception.

(Speaking of which, I’d better be off to Mass),
tee

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

tee_eff_em;1717793:

I was going down the list of possible days to make HDOs that might make sense because they cannot possibly be transferred to a Sunday. It would make more sense to transfer Ascension to a Sunday and make Ash Wednesday an HDO than to have things the way they are now. But I guess it’s not supposed to make sense.

The reason I’m doubting Immaculate Conception is because I don’t know how to say it in German, where I do know the others.

Die unbefleckte Empfaengnis.

Moving on, I’ve got to disagree wholeheartedly with you that it makes any sense whatsoever to transfer the Ascension. Be forewarned that this shouting is not directed at you, jbuck, but at the idea itself:

THE ASCENSCION OCCURRED 40 DAYS AFTER EASTER!!! There’s a reason I grew up talking about Ascension Thursday, because 40 days after Easter - the day of the Ascension - always falls on a Thursday. Transferring the Ascension is like deciding that, since we like Eastertide so much, we’ll extend the season by a week and celebrate Pentecost on the 57th day after Easter (instead of the 50th as implied by its very name).

By moving the Ascension to a Sunday the bishops have shown that, indeed, any feast can be transferred if we feel like it. I heard next year to boost attendance we’ll simply tack on the Holy Thursday and Good Friday liturgies at the end of our Palm Sunday Mass. That way no one will have to miss out on observing those days.

 

[puzzleannie]

Can anybody explain why the Immaculate Conception of Virgin Mary is a Holy day of obligation while the Feast of the Annunciation is not? How come the conception of Mary is considered more solemn than the conception of Jesus, while at the same time the birth of Jesus is considered way more important than the birth of Mary?

there is no “vs.” it is not a competition, the Immaculate Conception and the Annunciation are aspects of the same mystery. Note that Luke’s account of the Annunciation is the Gospel for the feast of the Immaculate Conception.

 

[Paul_from_MA]

… one day the “Catechist” stated that the immaculate conception was Jesus’ conception without sin. I tried to help her re-word the statement until I realized that she had no clue of what she was talking about. I am glad that in our diocese we have a three year certification course, and that a lot of DRE’s from different parishes make it mandatory for you to work as a catechist. However, I think that the Bishop should make it mandatory across the border, or get the pastors to enforce it if it is already mandatory.

Two years ago a regional bishop in our archdiocese was asked to visit a parish in his region called “The Immaculate Conception”. He was interviewed by the local paper about the importance of the parish and gave a lovely treatise on … the Annunciation. I wonder what you’d learn if you took a three year certification course designed by him.

 

[Paul_from_MA]

[aside]

Also: Some solemnities are higher than others, some are higher than some Sundays and some are not, and some other days are higher than solemnities. cf. the Table of Liturgical Days.

tee

By my count, the Vatican assigns ten of the Holy Days (or solemnities) to be obligatory, but allows the local bishops to abrogate (or move to a Sunday) the obligation on some of them. In the USA, the Feasts of Peter and Paul (29 June) as well as the Feast of St. Joseph (19 Mar) remain solemnities but are not obligatory. Epiphany is always celebrated the 2nd Sunday after Christmas, although it is observed on 6 Jan. The Feast of the Most Precious Body and Blood of Jesus (Corpus Christi) is celebrated on Maundy Thursday around the world but is celebrated on the following Sunday here.

Plus, (by my count), we have nine additional solemnities by direction of the Universal Church. Plus and ADDITIONAL solemnity on Thanksgiving (USA solemnity only). Plus the Christmas vigil, plus 3 more for the Triduum. Adds up to 24. Nice round number, I’d say.

(This isn’t directed to you TFM, but to some of the others) Is it a burden to make it to church on the Holy Days of Obligation? Is it a burden to make it to church on Sundays?Why go to Mass on six holy days when you have the chance to go twenty-four times?

 

[tee_eff_em]

By my count, the Vatican assigns ten of the Holy Days (or solemnities) to be obligatory, but allows the local bishops to abrogate (or move to a Sunday) the obligation on some of them. In the USA, the Feasts of Peter and Paul (29 June) as well as the Feast of St. Joseph (19 Mar) remain solemnities but are not obligatory. Epiphany is always celebrated the 2nd Sunday after Christmas, although it is observed on 6 Jan. The Feast of the Most Precious Body and Blood of Jesus (Corpus Christi) is celebrated on Maundy Thursday around the world but is celebrated on the following Sunday here.

In the general calendar, the Solemnity of the Most Holy Body and Blood of Christ falls on the Thursday following Trinity Sunday, not on Maundy Thursday (Holy Thursday).

Plus, (by my count), we have nine additional solemnities by direction of the Universal Church. Plus and ADDITIONAL solemnity on Thanksgiving (USA solemnity only). Plus the Christmas vigil, plus 3 more for the Triduum.

I’m not aware of a US Solemnity on Thanksgiving!? Also I believe it would be incorrect to separate the Christmas vigil from Christmas day? And the Triduum is really a separate beast entirely, in my opinion.

There are, however, a few you missed: Easter Sunday and every day in its octave (ie through the Second Sunday of Easter) are specifically ranked as Solemnities. (Not sure if you were including some of them among your 9? I counted 7, but I’m sleepy :yawn: )

tee
Armchair Liturgical Calendar Nerd

 

[Paul_from_MA]

Non Obligatory Solemnities (by my count):

1. Feast of the Presentation
2. Ash Wednesday
3. The Annunciation
4. Feast of the Sacred Heart
5. Nativity of John the Baptist
6. Transfiguration
7. Triumph of the Cross (Holy Cross)
8. All Souls
9. Dedication of the Laterna Bascillica

On each of these days, as well as the obligatory Holy Days, as well as Thanksgiving (in the USA) there are two readings besides the Psalm and the Gospel. During the Octave of Easter there is only one reading.

P_f_M(not to be outdone for nerdliness)

 

[tee_eff_em]

Non Obligatory Solemnities (by my count):

1. Feast of the Presentation
2. Ash Wednesday
3. The Annunciation
4. Feast of the Sacred Heart
5. Nativity of John the Baptist
6. Transfiguration
7. Triumph of the Cross (Holy Cross)
8. All Souls
9. Dedication of the Laterna Bascillica

On each of these days, as well as the obligatory Holy Days, as well as Thanksgiving (in the USA) there are two readings besides the Psalm and the Gospel. During the Octave of Easter there is only one reading.

P_f_M(not to be outdone for nerdliness)

Ah, but they are not all ranked as Solemnities.

From that list, only these are ranked as Solemnities

• The Annunciation
• The Nativity of John the Baptist
• Sacred Heart of Jesus

These are ranked as Feasts of the Lord – a sort of semi-Solemnity – It is like the regular rank of Feast, except that it has higher precedence than a Sunday in Ordinary Time, and so can supplant it. (Each also has an Evening Prayer I in the Liturgy of the Hours, but it is only prayed when the FotL falls on a Sunday).

• Feast of the Presentation
• Transfiguration
• Triumph of the Cross (Holy Cross)

All Souls and the Dedication of the Lateran Bascillica are each ranked a Feast. And Ash Wednesday is (like my characterization of the Triduum, above) a beast unto itself, as far as rank goes.

Additional Solemnities (and you may claim “those are Sundays!” So they are, yet they are Sundays of the rank of Solemnity):

• Easter Sunday
• Monday in the Octave of Easter
• Tuesday in the Octave of Easter
• Wednesday in the Octave of Easter
• Thursday in the Octave of Easter
• Friday in the Octave of Easter
• Saturday in the Octave of Easter
• Second Sunday of Easter
• Pentecost
• The Most Holy Trinity
• Christ the King

The USCCB Calendar for Dioceses in the US has this to say wrt Thanksgiving (2007):

[November] 22 Thu Saint Cecilia, virgin and martyr red/white
memorial [Thanksgiving Day—proper Mass]
1 Mc 2:15-29/Lk 19:41-44 (500), or, for Thanksgiving Day, any readings from the Mass “In Thanksgiving to God,” Lectionary for Ritual Masses, vol. IV, nos. 943-947 (see esp. Sir 50:22-24 (943.2)/1 Cor 1:3-9 (944.1)/Lk 17:11-19 (947.6)

There is the option for a “proper Mass” but it is just that: an option – I’ve never heard of an “optional Solemnity”.


tee

 

[marytk]

I know that it has been mentioned earlier but the above lists omit **March 19 Jospeh, Husband of Mary **

 

[tee_eff_em]

I know that it has been mentioned earlier but the above lists omit March 19 Jospeh, Husband of Mary

Yes, I believe Paul_from_MA (and I know I) was specifically omitting those Solemnities enumerated in Can. 1246 as the universal holydays of obligation.

tee
Who loves St Joseph, even without being obliged.

 

[Paul_from_MA]

Yes, I believe Paul_from_MA (and I know I) was specifically omitting those Solemnities enumerated in Can. 1246 as the universal holydays of obligation.

tee
Who loves St Joseph, even without being obliged.

Righto! (And you can add the solemnity of Saints Peter and Paul – from Tarsus, that is)

Ahlman’s original question had to do with a point of whether the Immaculate Conception was more “important” because its Feast Day was obligatory whereas the Feast of the Annunciation was not obligatory. Tee has pointed out, with admirable enthusiasm, that there’s not necessarily a one-to-one between obligation and importance. The most important feature in the liturgical calendar is the Triduum, and that’s not “obligatory”. Ash Wednesday is not obligatory either, and that not only rates higher in the Table of Liturgical Days than some of our Holy Days, it’s better attended as well.

How do I make sense of this? I make sense of this because I’ve been taught (as we all have) that the relationship between Christ and his Church is like that of a married couple. The Church behaves like a family; and like any family, it’s composed of imperfect members who respond to a variety of noble and not-so-noble impulses in order to remain motivated to show up for each other and for the good of the whole. An event that’s important for me to attend in my family may or may not be one that would get me “killed” if I missed it – but believe me, there are “obligations” associated with some family celebrations!

The church has always been blessed (or, perhaps, cursed) with many members who have a mania for making lists and ordering things. I’m that way, and I gather Tee is too. The main thing, though, is love. If this study causes you to love the Church and its celebrations better, the effort is worthwhile. If it intensifies your desire to feed the hungry and clothe the naked, it’s a good thing – if it causes an obstacle, it would be better to think of other things.

I took note of the fact that there are 24 spots on the Liturgical Calendar which merit two readings (beyond the gospel and the psalm) in the Lectionary even when they fall on a weekday. That matters to me because I’m concerned about Liturgy Preparation in my parish. Two readings mean we can call up two lectors – so there’s a practical consideration involved. Tee pointed out that “extra reading” isn’t quite the same as ‘solemnity’, but there ought to be some sort of word for it. Any ideas??

P_f_M
Who loves St Anthony, even without being obliged.