Immaculate Conception??

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Phil:

Very good work!

On a related note, I just got the new Bernadette movie and we watched it last Friday.

Much better than the Song of Bernadette, which suffered from typical Hollywood misunderstanding of holiness and celibacy.

I figured out that the English was done via voice over, which made it a little odd at times, but overall thought it was very good.

How does that relate to this thread? When asked for her name, the beautiful lady told young Bernadette, “I am the Immaculate Conception.” I know that this is private revelation and Catholics are not bound to believe it, but it would seem to me that heaven was giving its blessing to the Holy Father’s definition.

Scott
 
scott1228 said:
Mahershalal:

I think that you may have inadvertently come upon something… maybe the importance of the teaching of the Immaculate Conception relates to the doctrine of original sin-- and affirming the need for baptism and the other sacraments.

I think that the Church teaches that while it may be possible for someone who is not baptised to go to heaven through the baptism of desire, nevertheless it is important. The Lord’s pre-eminent command to the Apostles after the Resurrection was to go and baptise. And He Himself set the example.

Something else that the Marian teachings affirm–sometimes it can be so difficult, looking at humanity, to see something good and holy coming from it, and her life shows that yes, we can aspire to holiness, because with Him all things are possible.

And then you look at the saints that especially loved Mary, and you can see how quickly they grew by asking for her help: St. Catherine, St. Louis, St. Alphonsus, St. Bernard, St. Bernadette, the Fatima seers, you could go on and on.
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If I understand the Doctrine of Mary’s immaculate conception, it had nothing to do with her. She was redeemed from original sin at the moment of her conception, not based on her merit. This is part of my problem. Why was I born with original sin and the problems that come along with it while Mary was not?? It’s not fair, I have a much harder life because of it. (I am of course playing the devils advocate as I know life is not fair, but my argument is solvent regardless)
 
You could also say that is not fair to God that Adam and Eve sinned after being given Paradise.

You could also say that it is not fair to God that we commit personal sins after being given the benefit of life without having merited it.

You could also unsay that it is unfair that the Lord paid the penalty for Adam’s sin, as well as ours, by suffering and dying on the cross in a humiliating and painful manner.

Scott
 
MaHeRsHaLaL said:
… Why was I born with original sin and the problems that come along with it while Mary was not?? It’s not fair, I have a much harder life because of it…
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I think you’re being selfish.

Now, which one of your sons would you like to see die on the cross?
 
In case you missed it I stated that I knew life was not fair and that I was playing the devils advocate.
In the small things of life I know it is not fair, but in this case (the sinless nature of Mary) I believe it crosses bounds that God would not cross.
 
MaHeRsHaLaL said:
In the small things of life I know it is not fair, but in this case (the sinless nature of Mary) I believe it crosses bounds that God would not cross.
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And from where do you derive the ability to accurately divine the mind of God in order to know what bounds God would not cross? Certainly we’re safe in saying God would not commit evil, but that hardly applies in this particular case, since extending his grace to the Blessed Virgin in such a way as to preserve her from sin would be a most righteous and unmerited reward.

It seems to me you’re right to back to objecting that it just isn’t fair. Jesus himself addresses such objections rather nicely in the previously referenced parable.

In essence, God’s grace is to with as he sees fit. If God saves a single person from Hell, he has already done more than any of us deserve.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
mlchance said:
And from where do you derive the ability to accurately divine the mind of God in order to know what bounds God would not cross? Certainly we’re safe in saying God would not commit evil, but that hardly applies in this particular case, since extending his grace to the Blessed Virgin in such a way as to preserve her from sin would be a most righteous and unmerited reward.

It seems to me you’re right to back to objecting that it just isn’t fair. Jesus himself addresses such objections rather nicely in the previously referenced parable.

In essence, God’s grace is to with as he sees fit. If God saves a single person from Hell, he has already done more than any of us deserve.

– Mark L. Chance.
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I guess my thought stems from my belief that we are here to see if we will chose God over Satan. Giving Mary a “free pass” on sin means she was not tried.
Doing good at times is unjust. I could go to prison on behalf of my spouse by confessing to a crime she committed. This would be a most righteous and unmerited reward, but it would be unjust.
I do not believe God can be unjust.
I fully understand that my example parallels almost perfectly the saviors atonement, but that act in no way robs us of our free will.
What if Mary (had she not been ransomed from sin) wanted to be a sinner. God would have taken away her free will.
 
MaHeRsHaLaL said:
Giving Mary a “free pass” on sin means she was not tried.
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You persist in misrepresenting what the Immaculate Conception means. It doesn’t mean the Mother of God got a free pass. It means was given grace sufficient to always freely choose to do the will of God. And to say the Blessed Virgin was not tried is to overlook the very obvious fact that she witnessed her son’s murder.
MaHeRsHaLaL said:
Doing good at times is unjust.
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No, it isn’t.
MaHeRsHaLaL said:
I could go to prison on behalf of my spouse by confessing to a crime she committed.
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Lying is not doing good. Lying is a sin. Your example defeats itself.
MaHeRsHaLaL said:
I do not believe God can be unjust.
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Then there can be no injustice in the Immaculate Conception.
MaHeRsHaLaL said:
What if Mary (had she not been ransomed from sin) wanted to be a sinner. God would have taken away her free will.
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Counterfactual questions demonstrate nothing because there is no way to answer them. The fact is that the Blessed Virgin did not want to be a sinner. The fact is she never sinned, not through any strength of her own, but solely due to God’s grace acting in her in a unique way so as to enable her to always freely choose to do God’s will.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
mlchance said:
You persist in misrepresenting what the Immaculate Conception means. It doesn’t mean the Mother of God got a free pass. It means was given grace sufficient to always freely choose to do the will of God. And to say the Blessed Virgin was not tried is to overlook the very obvious fact that she witnessed her son’s murder.

No, it isn’t.

Lying is not doing good. Lying is a sin. Your example defeats itself.

Then there can be no injustice in the Immaculate Conception.

Counterfactual questions demonstrate nothing because there is no way to answer them. The fact is that the Blessed Virgin did not want to be a sinner. The fact is she never sinned, not through any strength of her own, but solely due to God’s grace acting in her in a unique way so as to enable her to always freely choose to do God’s will.

– Mark L. Chance.
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Obviously my example had a flaw, if you couldn’t tell I made it up on the fly:blush:
I guess I do not understand the dynamics, your last paragraph was very clear and I just don’t get it. Perhaps it’s the different lingo between our churches.
 
MaHeRsHaLaL said:
…your last paragraph was very clear and I just don’t get it. Perhaps it’s the different lingo between our churches.
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That is often the case. For example, I was raised Southern Baptist. Growing up, “prayer” was virtually synonymous with “worship”. This is not, however, what the Church means when she speaks of prayer. Different theological vocabularies have caused untold problems for Chrisitanity for centuries. This is just another clear indication about the necessity of a single, authoritative source of teaching.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
I don’t know how to start a thread so i’ll write it here since it’s on this topic. I heard a Minister use Mark 3:21-31 to oppose the Immaculate Conception. I am having a hard time trying to find the Bible verses or any arguement to oppose him. could anyone help.
 
Jerome_Jackson said:
I heard a Minister use Mark 3:21-31 to oppose the Immaculate Conception.
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The minister used the teachers of the law accusing Jesus of being possessed as an argument against the Immaculate Conception? I’m not seeing how that’s much of an argument.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
Just wanted to jump in the thought about Mary being given a free pass.

You know in Matthew what St. Peter’s reaction was when he heard of the Lord’s plan to suffer and die in Jerusalem.

Do you think it was actually easier for the Mother of the Lord to watch her Son suffer and die a humiliating death and then hold his lifeless body in her arms than for St. Peter to hear about the plan? You don’t think that maybe she was tempted to think that God had chosen a poor plan for our salvation?

So much for a free pass.
 
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