Immaculate Conception

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victus said:
He did give them the option for repentence and forgiveness, but sin has consequences attached to it. These were the consequences. This is straight Catholic Theology all the way here, and you can see it right from the Beginning in Genesis. Man separated himself from God’s Grace that Christ restored back on the Cross. Christ did so in his perfect Humanity that man lost in the garden…once you make a mistake you are no longer perfect.
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God could have made them pure again. He can make anyone pure again. He can do anything. But, He chose not too. Why?
 
expectthebest said:
God could have made them pure again. He can make anyone pure again. He can do anything. But, He chose not too. Why?
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What do you mean, “pure again”?

And suppose God made them “pure again” and they sinned again. And then God made them “pure again” and they sinned again. And so on, and so on…

What’s the real goal here?
 
VociMike said:
What do you mean, “pure again”?

And suppose God made them “pure again” and they sinned again. And then God made them “pure again” and they sinned again. And so on, and so on…

What’s the real goal here?
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The goal would be the taking away of sin. Otherwise, wouldn’t the fact the God gave us free will have been a gift that in fact opens us up to probably damnation? If so, what is this gift really worth? Is this a gift most would choose to accept? Given that most will be damned, I’d just assume not take the chance and give the gift of free choice back if it were possible. Wouldn’t you?
 
I am slightly confused here. Expectthebest, are you saying that it would be better to have either a) a world where we have no free will, no free choice (thereby reducing us to the level of automatons) or b) a world where we THINK we have free choice, but not really because there is never a consequence to that choice (making us the victims of a rat-maze, where no matter what way we turn, we end up in the predetermined place)? There is no place for love in either of those scenarios.

God has given us all the opportunity to be with Him forever in Heaven. That is more than He had to do at all. We have no grounds to complain that He did not grace us all as He did His Mother. (And Adam and Eve were free of original sin, too. Look how well that turned out.)
 
expectthebest said:
The goal would be the taking away of sin. Otherwise, wouldn’t the fact the God gave us free will have been a gift that in fact opens us up to probably damnation? If so, what is this gift really worth? Is this a gift most would choose to accept? Given that most will be damned, I’d just assume not take the chance and give the gift of free choice back if it were possible. Wouldn’t you?
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Not a bit, because without free will there is no chance of heaven. To enter heaven, the presence of God, we need to be like Him. To be like Him means exerting our free will to choose love. That’s why the angels and humans who exert free will to choose to hate, or be selfish, can’t enter heaven.

It’s like saying ‘I wish that girl didn’t have the free will to refuse if I asked her on a date’. Of course you’ll be hurt if she says no, but without the free will you’d never know that she honestly liked you when she said yes. It would be like dating a computer.
 
Sillara said:
I am slightly confused here. Expectthebest, are you saying that it would be better to have either a) a world where we have no free will, no free choice (thereby reducing us to the level of automatons) or b) a world where we THINK we have free choice, but not really because there is never a consequence to that choice (making us the victims of a rat-maze, where no matter what way we turn, we end up in the predetermined place)? There is no place for love in either of those scenarios.

God has given us all the opportunity to be with Him forever in Heaven. That is more than He had to do at all. We have no grounds to complain that He did not grace us all as He did His Mother. (And Adam and Eve were free of original sin, too. Look how well that turned out.)
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Given the choice between a strong change of hell with a weak chance of Heaven, yes, I would give up free choice for a greater chance at Heaven. I think we all would if we really thought about it. If we end up in hell, it would have been better not to be born anyway.
 
LilyM said:
Not a bit, because without free will there is no chance of heaven. To enter heaven, the presence of God, we need to be like Him. To be like Him means exerting our free will to choose love. That’s why the angels and humans who exert free will to choose to hate, or be selfish, can’t enter heaven.

It’s like saying ‘I wish that girl didn’t have the free will to refuse if I asked her on a date’. Of course you’ll be hurt if she says no, but without the free will you’d never know that she honestly liked you when she said yes. It would be like dating a computer.
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Are you saying that God does not have the power to create beings without full free choice and place them in Heaven? Or are you saying that God would not want someone with Him who did not have free choice?

I don’t think the comparison of dating really makes sense. This logic is based on a finite existance and hurt feelings. The eternal existance is another story. This example would indicate that God gets hurt feelings in the same way that human beings do. Is this indeed the case?
 
eucharist04 said:
I have a question.

According to the Catholic Church, God kept Mary free from sin in her mothers womb by His intervention. Could not God have done this for all of us so He would not have to send Jesus to die for our sins? since all of this was by His grace?
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Then we wouldn’t have the Eucharist. :eek:
 
expectthebest said:
Are you saying that God does not have the power to create beings without full free choice and place them in Heaven? Or are you saying that God would not want someone with Him who did not have free choice?

I don’t think the comparison of dating really makes sense. This logic is based on a finite existance and hurt feelings. The eternal existance is another story. This example would indicate that God gets hurt feelings in the same way that human beings do. Is this indeed the case?
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God is Love. To be in heaven is to become LIKE Him, as St Paul says - and in part we already ARE like Him, being created in His image and likeness. Therefore those who would be in heaven must be capable of this Divine love too - and further, they must ALREADY, on earth, have at least a spark of this Divine love in their natures.

Now the very essence of any love, let alone Divine love, is that it is free willed. Love that is produced by compulsion is not true love, is not of God, and cannot and does not exist in heaven - at least not in mankind.

I didn’t mean to imply hurt feelings were an issue, rather that God, knowing what true love was, would be as unsatisfied as a human being would be with a compelled forcible facsimile of the emotion.

You often hear the saying ‘rape isn’t about love, it’s about power’. And that’s true - a rapist, unless he’s insane, knows full well the victim doesn’t love him and doesn’t forcibly subject them to the physical act simulating the act of love because he thinks it is the real thing, but rather because he enjoys the power of compulsion!
 
eucharist04 said:
I have a question.

According to the Catholic Church, God kept Mary free from sin in her mothers womb by His intervention. Could not God have done this for all of us so He would not have to send Jesus to die for our sins? since all of this was by His grace?
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Since Mary is the 2nd most unique person in the history of the human race (behind Jesus), and the rest of us are not, don’t you suppose that His intervention (which BTW was an application of the same sacrifice that Christ gave for all mankind) was appropriate?

God applied the future (though not to Him) sacrifice of His Son to Mary in the womb.
 
LilyM said:
God is Love. To be in heaven is to become LIKE Him, as St Paul says - and in part we already ARE like Him, being created in His image and likeness. Therefore those who would be in heaven must be capable of this Divine love too - and further, they must ALREADY, on earth, have at least a spark of this Divine love in their natures.

Now the very essence of any love, let alone Divine love, is that it is free willed. Love that is produced by compulsion is not true love, is not of God, and cannot and does not exist in heaven - at least not in mankind.

I didn’t mean to imply hurt feelings were an issue, rather that God, knowing what true love was, would be as unsatisfied as a human being would be with a compelled forcible facsimile of the emotion.

You often hear the saying ‘rape isn’t about love, it’s about power’. And that’s true - a rapist, unless he’s insane, knows full well the victim doesn’t love him and doesn’t forcibly subject them to the physical act simulating the act of love because he thinks it is the real thing, but rather because he enjoys the power of compulsion!
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A fertilized egg is 100% human but does not have the capacity to love. By your definition, there is no way for this person to be saved. For, it cannot love and therefore it cannot have free will.
 
expectthebest said:
A fertilized egg is 100% human but does not have the capacity to love. By your definition, there is no way for this person to be saved. For, it cannot love and therefore it cannot have free will.
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Do you really claim to know what a human soul, created in God’s image and likeness, is capable of feeling? Maybe an embryo can’t physically express love, as people with certain conditions such as autism maybe can’t either. Does that mean of a certainty that they’re incapable of FEELING it?
 
LilyM said:
Do you really claim to know what a human soul, created in God’s image and likeness, is capable of feeling? Maybe an embryo can’t physically express love, as people with certain conditions such as autism maybe can’t either. Does that mean of a certainty that they’re incapable of FEELING it?
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Come on! You guys are trying to skirt around answering the question. A fertilized egg has no mind and therefore no reason. Without reason, there is no free will. I have never heard the Church teach that an infant has the capcity for anything other than being human.

Now, someone could come up with what if’s all day. But those what ifs for a single celled human are quite a stretch, don’t you think?
 
expectthebest said:
Come on! You guys are trying to skirt around answering the question. A fertilized egg has no mind and therefore no reason. Without reason, there is no free will. I have never heard the Church teach that an infant has the capcity for anything other than being human.

Now, someone could come up with what if’s all day. But those what ifs for a single celled human are quite a stretch, don’t you think?
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Both ‘free will’ and freely willed love are integral parts of ‘being human’. If the baby has the capacity for being human then it has the capacity for free will and freely willed love too.
 
I asked in another thread once about this and as the OPs question sort of relates to this im going to go and rehash it anyway.

God knew Adam and Eve would commit original sin at the moment he gave them free will. He could have easily prevented this, however he did not. This is much the same as the original question. But regressed a little bit. Im not 100% clued up on catholic teaching on the matter of salvation ect but i think it states that i will go to hell for being an Atheist and rejecting god. He is more than capable of preventing this however he chooses not to. This springs a lot more questions to mind.

A creator who loves his children (aparantly) makes them in such a way that they are incapable of accepting his church and teachings. Condeming them to an eternity in hell. Now this is obviously the crux of free will. At what point is it better to save his children or condem them.

Regardless of all the theological questions posed by this issue (almost none of which im qualified to answer) I would always rather choose free will and damnation than being an automation. Living a rich and full life for 100years (i hope) where i can make my own choices is a fair trade off for my eternal soul.
 
Squishy said:
God knew Adam and Eve would commit original sin at the moment he gave them free will. He could have easily prevented this, however he did not. This is much the same as the original question. But regressed a little bit. Im not 100% clued up on catholic teaching on the matter of salvation ect but i think it states that i will go to hell for being an Atheist and rejecting god. He is more than capable of preventing this however he chooses not to. This springs a lot more questions to mind.
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What fitted for Adam and Eve was not prevention but salvationn from their fall. What fitted for Mama Mary was preservation from sin.
Do not say that you are sure to go to hell. Today you maybe an atheist. But you do not know and you have no way of knowing as of today that one minute before your life is finally extinquished you would suddenly become a Christian.
Squishy said:
A creator who loves his children (aparantly) makes them in such a way that they are incapable of accepting his church and teachings. Condeming them to an eternity in hell. Now this is obviously the crux of free will. At what point is it better to save his children or condem them. .
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God would never forsake His children. Jesus would climb the highest mountain, if necessary, just to find his sheep that is lost.
But remember that not all in this earth are sheeps. Others are goats.

In God’s vineyard, Satan sowed weeds among the wheat.God lets them simply grow together until the time of the harvest.
 
agangbern said:
God would never forsake His children. Jesus would climb the highest mountain, if necessary, just to find his sheep that is lost.
But remember that not all in this earth are sheeps. Others are goats.

In God’s vineyard, Satan sowed weeds among the wheat.God lets them simply grow together until the time of the harvest.
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From this can i infer that some Humans were directly created by Satan ?
 
expectthebest said:
Come on! You guys are trying to skirt around answering the question. A fertilized egg has no mind and therefore no reason. Without reason, there is no free will. I have never heard the Church teach that an infant has the capcity for anything other than being human.

Now, someone could come up with what if’s all day. But those what ifs for a single celled human are quite a stretch, don’t you think?
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It really doesn’t matter when our capacity to love sets in, or when our ability to have free will comes about, even if we start out as only “one cell”, we are still human beings that deserve the dignity God intended. We may be one-celled at some point, but God has created that one-cell to utlimately grow to love and honor Him. No one should be able to take that right away from us - no matter how many cells our body consists of.

Human beings start out that way. Therefore, we are human beings from one cell all the way until natural death.
 
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