Immaculate Conception

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Fragile said:
The link in question was from CRI, it noted heresies the RCC held to, w/out calling the Church heretical Herself…and I thought these forums existed for and welcomed debate?
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Yes, debate is welcomed.

You need to provide, however, the arguments of your own merit. If you cannot articulate them of your own accord but need to seek succor in a link, perhaps it would benefit you to first understand the arguments in the link.

Then, you can properly form your own opinion, and then present your opinions here.
 
To be honest, I don’t know what to believe anymore! I find myself defending the Church on Protestant forums, and the Protestants on Catholic forums! 😃 The truth is, both sides are often misrepresented. As for myself, I’ve read the apologists on both sides, and they both raise valid points and make good arguments, and they both make silly arguments w/enough holes in them to look like Swiss cheese! Which is why I am not at all surprised that some having gone through this leave the Christian faith all together…

“But at night, when all the world’s asleep, the questions run too deep, for such a simple man!” :eek:
 
I’m aware of the reason for the original split between the East/West, but that has evolved a bit to this day; they do not hold to the Immaculate Conception, they utterly reject "Co-Redemptrix/Co-Mediatrix, they accept contraception, they do hold to the definition of “transubstantiation.” …
 
Fragile said:
To be honest, I don’t know what to believe anymore!
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Jesus Christ did not walk out on the Church He founded.

You know Him personally. You know that He would never do that.

And no one but the Catholic Church has historical roots that go back to the Apostles. Every other Christian church is a schism off the Catholic Church. Just stand outside any of them and look. Where did they all get their church buildings from, when the Bible says nothing about a church building, the Apostolic church met only in homes, and that Jesus said that one should go in their room, shut the door and pray in secret? The church building is part of Sacred Tradition and EVERYONE follows it. So is the table of contents of the Bible–but non-Catholics have messed with that. What else have they messed with? Do you really want to have to keep asking these questions?

The Immaculate Conception is also part of Sacred Tradition, but it is also squarely in the Bible at Genesis 3:15.
Cat_Herder said:
The Immaculate Conception Explained:

When God was cursing the devil for bringing sin into the world, God said the following…
Genesis 3:15, NIV:
15 And I will put** enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers**;
he will crush** your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

The Woman AND Her Offspring are at enmity with the devil.
What kind of enmity? Well, the Offspring is clearly Jesus Christ. His enmity with the devil is total–He is like us in all things but sin.

BUT THIS SAME ENMITY is applied to the Woman as well.

So the Protestants hit the panic button and try to make the Woman someone other than Mary. But no one else qualifies.

Eve? No, Eve wasn’t at enmity with the devil. Eve cooperated with the devil and brought sin into the world.

Israel? No, Israel wasn’t at enmity with the devil. Israel turned to idols and ultimately the Jews crucified God Himself.

The Church? No, Jesus is not the offspring of the Church, it’s the other way around.

The only conclusion is that Mary was also preserved from sin, just as Christ was.**
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Fragile said:
I’m aware of the reason for the original split between the East/West, but that has evolved a bit to this day; they do not hold to the Immaculate Conception, they utterly reject "Co-Redemptrix/Co-Mediatrix, they accept contraception, they do hold to the definition of “transubstantiation.” …
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You’re admitting that without the Pope, they’ve started changing doctrine.
 
Fragile said:
To be honest, I don’t know what to believe anymore! I find myself defending the Church on Protestant forums, and the Protestants on Catholic forums! 😃 The truth is, both sides are often misrepresented. As for myself, I’ve read the apologists on both sides, and they both raise valid points and make good arguments, and they both make silly arguments w/enough holes in them to look like Swiss cheese! Which is why I am not at all surprised that some having gone through this leave the Christian faith all together…

“But at night, when all the world’s asleep, the questions run too deep, for such a simple man!” :eek:
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Why don’t you proffer (in your own words) the arguments that you think are valid made by Protestant apologists?
 
Fragile said:
To be honest, I don’t know what to believe anymore! I find myself defending the Church on Protestant forums, and the Protestants on Catholic forums! 😃 The truth is, both sides are often misrepresented. As for myself, I’ve read the apologists on both sides, and they both raise valid points and make good arguments, and they both make silly arguments w/enough holes in them to look like Swiss cheese! Which is why I am not at all surprised that some having gone through this leave the Christian faith all together…

“But at night, when all the world’s asleep, the questions run too deep, for such a simple man!” :eek:
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Ah…but you do not need to be.

1John 4…6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood

look at Paul’s example:
Galatians 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days.
Galatians 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

Paul had a direct revelation from Christ. Yet, from the two passages above, he goes to visit Cephas/Peter and submits himself to Peter. Gal 2: 2 states his purpose…to present his gospel/message to make sure it is in line with the Apostles and what they were handed down from Christ.
 
PRmerger said:
The point being made is that without a pope to lead and speak for the Body of Christ, you end up with doctrinal changes, limned by the Orthodox Church.
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And if you have doctrinal changes in a church, that church is not the means by which God “will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” What truth it does have must then have come from the Catholic Church which actually is the means by which we “come to the knowledge of the truth.” The Catholic Church is that means, not the Bible alone, because the Bible was uncompiled, unreadable and unavailable during medieval times when the populace was illiterate; even if you could read, the only Bibles were handwritten by Catholic monks and they were only available in Catholic churches (and privately to the king and rich barons). No Church, no Bible!

[BIBLEDRB]1 Tim 2:3-4[/BIBLEDRB]
 
Fine, the Protestants got all their truth from The Catholic Church and made it better…ahem! 😃

Thing is, I’m just not sure which ones…:confused:
 
Fragile said:
Fine, the Protestants got all their truth from The Catholic Church and made it better…ahem! 😃

Thing is, I’m just not sure which ones…:confused:
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:confused::confused:

Really? So by making them better…whatever these are…it has caused you confusion? So how did the protestants make them better if it made you confused?

And if indeed they made them better, whatever these are…how come there are now thousands of protestant denoms…all professing different truths…and thereby more confusion?
 
Fragile said:
Or, it could imply the truth He gave got distorted over time…
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Then Jesus lied when he said the gates of hell would not prevail over his Church? And that he would be with us to guide us till the end of time?

For if he is with us, how could the truth get distorted?

And if there is distorted truth, does that not mean that hell is winning?
 
pablope said:
:confused::confused:

Really? So by making them better…whatever these are…it has caused you confusion? So how did the protestants make them better if it made you confused?

And if indeed they made them better, whatever these are…how come there are now thousands of protestant denoms…all professing different truths…and thereby more confusion?
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Well, at least we are confused more profoundly, and on a higher level! 👍
 
Something that bothered me in a description concerning the “Lord’s Supper” given by CRI, they went over the various Protestant beliefs, then Catholic and Orthodox. At the end of the day they said it didn’t really matter, as long as we were all converted to Christ…while I do believe it’s utmost important to be converted to Christ, how could it not matter, and if what the Church teaches concerning the Eucharist is true, it would be extremely important! I believe they said the same thing concerning baptism…
 
Fragile said:
Something that bothered me in a description concerning the “Lord’s Supper” given by CRI, they went over the various Protestant beliefs, then Catholic and Orthodox. At the end of the day they said it didn’t really matter
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Uh, it DOES matter.

[BIBLEDRB]John 6:53-54[/BIBLEDRB]

The Immaculate Conception (the topic, remember?) also matters because the promise of Jesus in Genesis 3:15 is conditioned on it, just as the prophecy of Jesus in Ezekiel 44 is conditioned on Her perpetual virginity. If Mary isn’t the Woman in Genesis 3:15 then Jesus isn’t the Seed; if Mary isn’t the Temple Gate in Ezekiel 44, then Jesus isn’t the Christ.

All of the doctrines about Mary are hardwired into the identity of WHO JESUS IS. And WHO HE IS absolutely matters.
 
Fragile said:
Or, it could imply the truth He gave got distorted over time…
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Careful, that could be perceived as an insult against the Holy Spirit, since it was the Spirit’s job to lead the Church into all truth (John 16:13).
 
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