Immaculate Conception

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My wife (a WELS Lutheran) said that Jesus came in the flesh and was tempted by Satan to sin. She is implying that Mary was not Immaculate and without sin because Jesus was of the flesh and was tempted to sin. She said that it would have been her human-side (sinfulness) that caused Jesus to be tempted, not his Godliness. The human nature, thru Mary would have given him this opportunity. Now, I have read some beautiful responses to the Immaculate Conception in the past here on CA,specifically dealing with the Ark of the Covenant- and the Immaculate Conception but would like some refreshers on this. I’m sure this topic comes up quite often so if someone can answer patiently, great! Also, could someone tell me how I can find past threads on this topic? I read the responses that I alluded to above several months ago and tried finding them…but no luck. Thank you all.
 
Human flesh, in and of itself, is not automatically prone to sin–that’s your wife’s first misconception (no pun intended).

Secondly, Mary’s Immaculate Conception tells us more about Jesus than it does about her, as it was meant to do. It tells us that Jesus’ flesh, which he took from Mary, was unstained by original sin or the stain of original sin nor did he or Mary have concupiscence (the desire to sin).

Jesus’ humanity was subject to the same sufferings we are, and one of those sufferings is temptation. This does not mean, however that he had any desire to sin.
 
Ironically, Luther himself believed that Mary was born free of original sin:
Code: 
     "It         is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's         soul was effected without original sin; so that in the         very infusion of her soul she was also purified from         original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a         pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she         began to live she was free from all sin." 
    **Martin Luther**: Sermon, 1527
 
Where might I ask did you get that quote from Luther? Obviously the Sermon but where? That will prove interesting when I show her. I would like to tell her what book it came out of so she can see for herself if she wants!

I kind of thought the Immaculate Conception was meant more for Christ. Didn’t Mary need to be pure in order to carry the God child? I tried telling her that when the angel appears and says, “Hail, full of Grace” he is already implying that she is without sin as she is FULL of grace, meaning there is no room for more. I also told her that it was just the opposite of what she said, Mary had to be without stain as Christ was taking human form and could not have any sin whatsoever.
I have come to the realization that if someone, meaning my wife, is not open to the Spirit it will prove to be hard no matter what refute or promising answer I give her. Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut. I will still try these out on her even though it can sometimes be frustrating.
 
Adam and Eve where made without sin, yet Eve was tempted.
 
I got it from a Catholic website:

geocities.com/aprofaith/

I wish I had a Protestant or Lutheran source to quote from, but I don’t. If i have time, I may scour some Lutherans sites to see if I can find that quote there (of course, that might be one they leave out, for obvious reasons).
 
RNRobert said:
Ironically, Luther himself believed that Mary was born free of original sin:
Code: 
     "It         is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's         soul was effected without original sin; so that in the         very infusion of her soul she was also purified from         original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a         pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she         began to live she was free from all sin." 
    **Martin Luther**: Sermon, 1527
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Also another quote from one of Luther’s sermons The Birth of Jesus.

A sermon by Martin Luther, from his Wartburg Church Postil, 1521-1522.
You can show the site (which is a Lutheran one) to your wife.
Just scroll way down until you reach Luke and the The Birth of Jesus.

monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/luther.html#sermons
  1. It is well known what is meant by giving birth. Mary’s experience was not different from that of other women, so that the birth of Christ was a real natural birth, Mary being his natural mother and he being her natural son. Therefore her body performed its functions of giving birth, which naturally belonged to it, except that she brought forth without sin, without shame, without pain and without injury, just as she had conceived without sin. The curse of Eve did not come on her, where God said: “In pain thou shalt bring forth children,” Gen. 3: 16; otherwise it was with her in every particular as with every woman who gives birth to a child.
 
I showed my wife these quotes by Luther. Her reply…“We were taught that Luther did have a love for Mary but it doesn’t mean that he prayed to her”. I told her that I bet it was quite the opposite. How can anyone in there right mind say that about the Blessed Mother and not pray to her. Am I off base by saying this?
 
Proeliator said:
I showed my wife these quotes by Luther. Her reply…“We were taught that Luther did have a love for Mary but it doesn’t mean that he prayed to her”. I told her that I bet it was quite the opposite. How can anyone in there right mind say that about the Blessed Mother and not pray to her. Am I off base by saying this?
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I don’t know when, and to what extent Luther jettisoned the belief of the communion and intercession of Saints, but you need not use Luther quotes for everything. Try this:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=128905
 
Proeliator said:
I showed my wife these quotes by Luther. Her reply…“We were taught that Luther did have a love for Mary but it doesn’t mean that he prayed to her”. I told her that I bet it was quite the opposite. How can anyone in there right mind say that about the Blessed Mother and not pray to her. Am I off base by saying this?
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My sister-in-law who is Lutheran (ELCA) told me that Luther had a rosary and prayed it every day; even in his last days.

I don’t know where she got from. It was not me or any body I know…

Anyway once she learn that she started to look into the Catholic Church.

Does anybody know of a source that tell us if Martin Luther had a rosary or not? Or that he prayed it?
 
Proeliator said:
I showed my wife these quotes by Luther. Her reply…“We were taught that Luther did have a love for Mary but it doesn’t mean that he prayed to her”. I told her that I bet it was quite the opposite. How can anyone in there right mind say that about the Blessed Mother and not pray to her. Am I off base by saying this?
Click to expand...
Extract below is from Luther’s Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521.

QUOTE
One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God’s grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God.
UNQUOTE

Show your wife the above quote from Luther and explain that praying to Mary to intercede for us is how to come to God through her.
 
Certainly Luther prayed to Mary; as most people until that time understood prayer in its proper meaning, “to ask”. Catholics still ‘pray’ to Mary and the saints that way, just as all Christians once did. Only those Christians who took it upon themselves to change the meaning of ‘prayer’ to “speak to God alone” get confused by the idea of prayer.
 
Than you so much for the continued responses. I showed her the updated responses! She is at least reading them! I wish for nothing more than her conversion. Your responses are helping me and I believe, her!
 
Does anyone know about whether Luther prayed the rosary after he left the church? Rather, where might I find that interesting fact!
 
Proeliator said:
Does anyone know about whether Luther prayed the rosary after he left the church? Rather, where might I find that interesting fact!
Click to expand...
My Sister-in-law (whose Lutheran {ELCA}) told me he did. I don’t know where she got that info, and I haven’t been able to ask her.

However, I did a google search with the words “Luther”; “Rosary” and this link came up:

davidmacd.com/catholic/mary_rosary.htm
In this link is this quote from Martin Luther
Our prayer should include the Mother of God . . . What the Hail Mary says is that all glory should be given to God, using these words: “Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Amen!” You see that these words are not concerned with prayer but purely with giving praise and honor . . . We can use the Hail Mary as a meditation in which we recite what grace God has given her. Second, we should add a wish that everyone may know and respect her " (Personal Prayer Book, 1522).
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If you had a chance to make your own mother, wouldn’t you think that it would be a very honourable thing as to make her Immaculate?

Another quote from Martin Luther to show he did speak to Mary and knew Her to be in Heaven. I too read he prayed the Rosary.

"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven." (Sermon, September 1, 1522).

Then He talked to her in the first person showing he believed She did hear him when he spoke or prayed to Her:

"No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity." (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537).
 
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