Immaculate conceptions in the Bible, ...Mary?

[ConstantineTG]

I’m in agreement with St Bernard’s assessment. Can the modern Church accept me with Bernard’s beliefs ?

The Byzantine faith professes that Mary was grace filled from conception. We don’t presuppose an Immaculate Conception, there is no need for it. If she were to be exempt from the effects of the Fall, then she would be a different human being from us, even from her own parents. That means Jesus did not come to share with our humanity. That means the incarnation was all for nothing.

 

[brb3]

The Byzantine faith professes that Mary was grace filled from conception. We don’t presuppose an Immaculate Conception, there is no need for it. If she were to be exempt from the effects of the Fall, then she would be a different human being from us, even from her own parents. That means Jesus did not come to share with our humanity. That means the incarnation was all for nothing.

EXACTLY !!! U have expressed exactly what I’m thinking !!!

Can’t the RCC, THAT I LOVE … accept this belief on Mary ?
Or will I need to move to the Eastern Church ?

 

[PJM]

=brb3;10128220]Adam, Eve, Isaac & John the Baptist…are supported in Sacred Scripture. Do we have support for Mary or other of great saints?

If not, why not ?

Well, obviously I must add Christ to the list … so 5 I see.

How do we KNOW Adam and Eve or Saints from the bible? And what’s the Prove of Issac?

What about Mary the Mother of God? Lk. 1:28 [DR bible] FULL of GRACE

The Apostles: ALL Martyrs for Christ [except John] where they tried and failed

What about the Prophets?

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/martyrdom.html

Simon Peter crucified upside down
Andrew crucified. Peter’s brother.
James beheaded John exiled, died of old age
(brother of James) Matthew speared to death
Bartholomew beaten then crucified. (aka Nathanael)
Philip crucified
Thomas speared to death
Simon crucified, the zealot
James stoned to death
Thaddaeus stoned to death. (aka Judas son of James)
Judas Iscariot suicide by hanging

 

[brb3]

This is exactly what the Apostles & ECF’s were having to reason thru …and, look at the great angst and debate it caused them. Can’t the RCC appreciate this and allow in this VERY ANCIENT belief of our forebears on Mary …which better suits scripture & reason?

 

[ConstantineTG]

EXACTLY !!! U have expressed exactly what I’m thinking !!!

Can’t the RCC, THAT I LOVE … accept this belief on Mary ?
Or will I need to move to the Eastern Church ?

Try reading Ineffabilis Deus. I do think they made it clear that Mary’s human nature is the same as ours. But this causes confusion because of Original Sin is what cause sin and death and Mary has no original sin but the same human nature as we do, what really is Original Sin?

 

[Sarcelle]

This is exactly what the Apostles & ECF’s were having to reason thru …and, look at the great angst and debate it caused them. Can’t the RCC appreciate this and allow in this VERY ANCIENT belief of our forebears on Mary …which better suits scripture & reason?

Hmm, I doubt it. You are talking about the Immaculate Conception which is a dogma, one in which Papal Infallibility has been invoked. All Catholics, who wish to call themselves faithful must,and I mean must, accept this. No ifs, ands, or buts.

 

[ConstantineTG]

And it is said, even if the Father had only for an instant turned away, it was extremely painful for Christ.

By the way, this is heresy. The Godhead cannot be separated even for an instant. Unless you believe that for a brief moment that Jesus was only human and not God, again a condemned heresy, or that Jesus is fully God and fully man but was for an instant God the Son was separated from God the Father, also a condemned heresy because now this teaches there are two Gods instead of one.

 

[brb3]

By the way, this is heresy. The Godhead cannot be separated even for an instant. Unless you believe that for a brief moment that Jesus was only human and not God, again a condemned heresy, or that Jesus is fully God and fully man but was for an instant God the Son was separated from God the Father, also a condemned heresy because now this teaches there are two Gods instead of one.

But, since Christ did experience pain of Calvary, experienced all things like us, yet w/o sin …how do we explain the words of Christ at Calvary.
It does seem that the Person of the Father briefly turn away when ALL our sins came to bear upon Christ .

The Son is not the Father …but, became man (God-man) …a separate Person from the Father …by choice !! One Person can turn away from another …by choice, if circumstances demand.

 

[GaryTaylor]

It wasn’t fractured because

Man fell and mans nature changed, where does your Church teach otherwise?

he has redeemed it.

What? What did He redeem. what you claim doesn’t exist???

Humanity cannot be fractured when in full communion with God.

No one said otherwise but through your own indications above.

At what point does Christ’s humanity ever out of communion with God? Never.

No one suggested otherwise:shrug:

Once Christ put on humanity, he was fully man and fully God all the time…

Not according to your understanding for he would have acquired Marys fallen state at HIs conception, with Ancestral Sin, you keep dancing around this with a whole bunch of nothing no-one is talking about.

But the key here is Christ’s perfect humanity is not a perfect pre-fall humanity he inherited, .

No heres the “key” again you keep dancing around…“SIN, He had NONE”!!! Neither did Mary.

instead he inherited the fallen humanity and by the virtue of the Incarnation, God became flesh, that humanity instantly became perfected.

Very good, but he inherited NO SIN from Mary being our constant point here. The fact one would argue Mary became stain free in Christ womb is lacking. We already been through the Annunciation…“Perfectly Graced” before Christ conception.

If God can spare people from the Fall, why does God have to become man in the first place? There is no point in that. ?

If? God imposed the law! God becomes man to correct mans fall [which he imposed] and once again offer man communion with Him in Love for us. And in doing so an invaluable lesson is told in the life of Christ the living God.

Contrary to the point. God could have fell off an apple tree. He didn’t He was born of a fully human woman in a fully human birth. And at the moment of biological conception He would have acquired Marys fallen condition which somehow you believe He did without contracting Ancestral Sin.

Just immaculately conceive anyone and be done with it! Why would God complicate the process?

He did at Marys birth, why is this more complicated? Its called “most fitting” by the CC and Duns Scotus

Why would God allow His own Son to suffer and die a shameful death if He could just immaculately concieve everyone and free us from the bondage of Adam’s sin

God and His Son are one they do not think “different”.

God humbled himself, corrected mans error, opens heaven thus salvation, and shows man the his own path in human nature…and your answer is LOVE.

I’m glad you acknowledge we needed to be free of “Adams Sin.” That’s the same sin Christ would have biologically acquired had he been conceived by Mary who you claim remained in this state. [this is the point we are on]

Mary found favor and was perfectly Graced “before” the Holy Spirit overshadowed Her. All the “could-have been” God imaginative situations, still brings us back to the Biblical reality.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Try reading Ineffabilis Deus. I do think they made it clear that Mary’s human nature is the same as ours. But this causes confusion?

With you it cause’s confusion.

because of Original Sin is what cause sin and death and Mary has no original sin but the same human nature as we do, what really is Original Sin?

Ancestral Sin its no different. Back to square one. This misunderstanding exists in your mind, not in reality. What “really” is ancestral sin and you will have your answer.

 

[GaryTaylor]

This is exactly what the Apostles & ECF’s were having to reason thru …and, look at the great angst and debate it caused them. Can’t the RCC appreciate this and allow in this VERY ANCIENT belief of our forebears on Mary …which better suits scripture & reason?

Do you believe in the real presence of the Eucharist? Then your question answers itself. God is always in the present moment in His Church.

“Behold, I AM with you always, till the end of the World”

Man comes to know the mysteries of God as He wills them to know. And He wills them through their “desire” in perfect love of the Lord. Desire/love is infinite. And the path for eternity, One comes to “know” on this path through a State of Grace only, which is perfect love. All else indicates self-love and a downward spiral. This is why the Mystical Body of Christ is forever changing…it is always in the immediate now of God. Nothing is constant but change. And also why suffering correctly understood is sanctifying Grace.

I don’t understand where you arrive at the conclusion the CC doesn’t appreciate the ECFs. They simply are not a pick and chose to fit your argument box of crayons.

 

[brb3]

Gary Taylor…

U make powerful rebuttal, and have me thinking from both viewpoints.

But, CTG has convincingly made his too. I’m on the fence …but, never happy as an undecided. Let the debate continue …u two both have great knowledge & apologetic skills.

 

[Jimmygill88]

What’s all this conjecture about St John the Baptist being born without original sin? Who ever taught that? I don’t really believe in Adam and Eve. I’m an evolutionist.

 

[brb3]

What’s all this conjecture about St John the Baptist being born without original sin? Who ever taught that? I don’t really believe in Adam and Eve. I’m an evolutionist.

Darwinian evolution is untenable with modern science…get with the 21 st century evidence!!

 

[GaryTaylor]

have me thinking from both viewpoints.

Here’s a link from the Eastern forum.

byztex.blogspot.ca/2012/12/ep-bartholomew-seeks-to-restart.html?m=1

 

[brb3]

Here’s a link from the Eastern forum.

byztex.blogspot.ca/2012/12/ep-bartholomew-seeks-to-restart.html?m=1

Wow that is beautiful !!! I think Benedict will be up to the invitation. Its time for ALL BELIEVERS join hands & hearts in dialog, breaking of bread, & promotion of the King & Kingdom. We know this is CHRIST’S DESIRE for his Children.

 

[PJM]

=brb3;10128639]Yes, u are getting my drift…very good !!
Now, IF Mary were born w/o any sin … that would violate scripture. How do u deal with that conundrum ?

Perhaps Like this:

I assume your referencing 1st. John 1: 8-10 that claims cf. “all are sinners or liars”

Placed in the context of his teaching this is 1. After the Immaculate Conception took place 2. After Christ Death and Mary had been given to all of us as Our Mother too; now in the protective custody of John who represents all humanity in this role. 3. So he would NOT have been speaking in this lesson of past tense; but in present and future tense [excluding Mary]. WHY?

Can we agree that God is perfect? YES

Can we agree that God “must be” perfect in-order to be God? YES

Because of these absolutes; Mary HAD TO BE perfected by God; through the merits of Christ** prior to her own birth in order to be enabled to become the “Mother of God“. Luke 1:16-35 ** This is possible because time exist for man; but not for God, where everything is “now.”

For this very same reason BUT by absolute freewill choice of Mary; She HAD TO with God’s grace; never-ever sin. Again because God simply could not permit “His-son” to be born from less than a perfected and then freely perfect human mother.

Amen:thumbsup:

 

[brb3]

Perhaps Like this:

I assume your referencing 1st. John 1: 8-10 that claims cf. “all are sinners or liars”

Placed in the context of his teaching this is 1. After the Immaculate Conception took place 2. After Christ Death and Mary had been given to all of us as Our Mother too; now in the protective custody of John who represents all humanity in this role. 3. So he would NOT have been speaking in this lesson of past tense; but in present and future tense [excluding Mary]. WHY?

Can we agree that God is perfect? YES
U
Can we agree that God “must be” perfect in-order to be God? YES

Because of these absolutes; Mary HAD TO BE perfected by God; through the merits of Christ** prior to her own birth in order to be enabled to become the “Mother of God“. Luke 1:16-35 ** This is possible because time exist for man; but not for God, where everything is “now.”

For this very same reason BUT by absolute freewill choice of Mary; She HAD TO with God’s grace; never-ever sin. Again because God simply could not permit “His-son” to be born from less than a perfected and then freely perfect human mother.

Amen:thumbsup:

I hear your premise …but, an IC makes Mary so unlike us. Almost not human, more of a goddess. And, clearly those who knew her then …didn’t see her as a goddess. So, the IC idea has its theological problems to explain.

 

[PJM]

=brb3;10160009]I hear your premise …but, an IC makes Mary so unlike us. Almost not human, more of a goddess. And, clearly those who knew her then …didn’t see her as a goddess. So, the IC idea has its theological problems to explain.

The idea of Mary as “a godess” is yours. If there is ANY indication of that in the bible; please share it.

God Bless,

 

[fred_conty]

I hear your premise …but, an IC makes Mary so unlike us. Almost not human, more of a goddess. And, clearly those who knew her then …didn’t see her as a goddess. So, the IC idea has its theological problems to explain.

The Immaculate Conception can be looked at as “almost” Mary being baptised in the womb in the first instant. When we are baptised we become immaculate as well except we are not immaculate in the first instant of life. The only difference is that Mary’s redemption by her son was applied to her in the first moment of her life.

Just some thoughts.