Immaculate conceptions in the Bible, ...Mary?

[brb3]

Adam, Eve, Isaac & John the Baptist…are supported in Sacred Scripture. Do we have support for Mary or other of great saints?

If not, why not ?

Well, obviously I must add Christ to the list … so 5 I see.

 

[Gorgias]

Adam, Eve, Isaac & John the Baptist…are supported in Sacred Scripture. Do we have support for Mary or other of great saints?

If not, why not ?

Adam and Eve weren’t conceived (although they were created without original sin).

Isaac? I’ve never heard of this notion. Where do you see him as being immaculately conceived?

It’s a pious conjecture that John the Baptist was conceived without original sin, based solely on the observation that he leaped in the womb when he heard Mary’s greeting. This isn’t official Church teaching, though, to the best of my knowledge.

 

[TimothyH]

Adam, Eve, Isaac & John the Baptist…are supported in Sacred Scripture. Do we have support for Mary or other of great saints?

If not, why not ?

No, only Mary was concieved immaculately.

Adam and Eve were not concieved. They were created directly by God. They were created in a sinless state - without original sin - but they were not concieved that way.

John the Baptist was sanctified by the Jesus through Mary while in his mother’s womb, which was after his conception. John the Baptist was born without sin becuase he was sanctified prior to birth, but he was not concieved that way. Everyone else in the history of creation - Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, Solomon, and hopefully you and I - were concieved in a state of original sin and sanctified later.

Only Mary was granted the gift of an immaculate conception. Only Mary was concieved without the stain of original sin.

-Tim-

 

[brb3]

Adam and Eve weren’t conceived (although they were created without original sin).

.

Point taken … but, I’m not restricting conception to only SEXUAL IC events. Clearly Mary had no IC with Joseph …yet Christ was conceived within her by HS.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Point taken … but, I’m not restricting conception to only SEXUAL IC events. Clearly Mary had no IC with Joseph …yet Christ was conceived within her by HS.

Isaac was not conceived immaculately. Nor was St. John the Baptist. Adam and Eve were not ‘conceived’ but were created.

Once Adam and Eve sinned, all humanity was conceived with Original Sin save one person (Mary). Christ’s INCARNATION is a separate case.

As for Scripture, Luke is very clear when one sees the original Greek which is translated as ‘full of grace’. If one is ‘full’ of something, then nothing else can be added.

And I’m still curious as to where you have ‘conceived’ (pun INTENDED) the idea that every Catholic teaching must be found, explicitly, in Scripture. Why Scripture itself tells us in John’s gospel that not everything that Jesus said or taught is found in Scripture, plus Scripture tells us that we will be led by the Spirit to all truth, plus Scripture tells us that the pillar and cornerstone of faith is in the Church.

I really hope that you have a good faithful priest you can listen to.

There’s an old proverb that God gave us two ears and one mouth to indicate that we should listen twice as much as we speak. You’ve been doing a lot of talking; have you considered as part of your Advent preparation more listening to somebody other than yourself?

 

[Scoobyshme]

Mary was conceived without original sin. See Luke 1:28, where the angel addressed Mary as “full of grace.” The English translation loses the full meaning. The Greek word originally used was “kecharitomene.” This word indicates several things. It means she was “full of grace” from the very moment of her conception, in such a manner as to be permanent forever after. One cannot be “full of grace” and have any sin at the same time. Hence, she was conceived without Original Sin and remained sinless her whole life, by a unique grace of God.

 

[brb3]

Isaac was not conceived immaculately. Nor was St. John the Baptist. Adam and Eve were not ‘conceived’ but were created.

?

Seriously now TE … we all have a beginning, … conceived & birthed into this world via woman. Only Adam & Eva had non-womb births…for obvious reasons. Yet, scripture teaches that ISAAC & JOHN’s parents were incapable of bearing children by normative means. Those two had Miraculous births, indeed we could say Immaculate ones…since special intervention by God was needed to allow their births.

Now, back to topic question …does scripture support such a miraculous, immaculate birth for Mary too ?

 

[Ophelia23]

Seriously now TE … we all have a beginning, … conceived & birthed into this world via woman. Only Adam & Eva had non-womb births…for obvious reasons. Yet, scripture teaches that ISAAC & JOHN’s parents were incapable of bearing children by normative means. Those two had Miraculous births, indeed we could say Immaculate ones…since special intervention by God was needed to allow their births.

Now, back to topic question …does scripture support such a miraculous, immaculate birth for Mary too ?

I think you are confusing the term Immaculate Conception. An immaculate conception is one where the child was conceived in a woman’s womb, and that child was not marked with original sin. The Bible does not support your claim that Isaac or John the Baptist were immaculately conceived. To your question about the Immaculate Conception of Mary, which is when she was conceived by her parents, the following was a good write up about it:

 "And the angel came in unto her, and said, hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." - Luke 1:28

It is the term “full of grace” that is emphasized by the Church when dealing with Mary’s Immaculate Conception. The title “full of grace” comes from the Greek word kecharitomene, which describes a “perfection” and “abundance” of grace. In other words, Mary was proclaimed by the angel to be with a perfection of grace, which was a very powerful statement. How can Mary be completely and perfectly with God’s grace, yet still have sin left in her? Christians eventually came to recognize that it was extremely possible for Mary to be without sin, especially if she was completely filled with God’s grace. Luke 1:28 happens to be the only place in the Bible where anyone is addressed with the important title of “full of grace.”

"…the Holy Ghost shall come upon you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of God." - Luke 1:35

Luke 1:35 shows Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant. According to the Old Testament, the Ark of the Covenant was the pure and holy vessel that held the Ten Commandments (the Old Covenant). The Ark was so holy in fact, that if anyone where to touch it they could actually fall down and die! It was housed in the Holy of Holies, which was a perfectly clean place where the Jewish high priests could enter only once a year according to their law (See Lev. 16:2-4). So how are Mary and the Ark related? The same language that describes God’s “dwelling” place for the Old Ark is used again for Mary’s overshadowing by the Holy Spirit. Put another way, the Old Ark held God’s Ten Commandments and could not be touched by human hands because of its holiness. Mary, the New Ark, holds the New Covenant in her womb, which is Jesus Christ. How much holier is Christ than the Ten Commandments? It only makes sense that for Mary to hold God in her womb, she too would be completely pure and without any sin.

"I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed (offspring) and hers; He (she) will crush your head while you strike at his (her) heel." - Genesis 3:15

What does the book of Genesis have to do with Mary’s Immaculate Conception? Genesis 3:15 is the first passage in the Bible that refers to Jesus defeating Satan on the cross. It is also the first verse that shows us how Mary would become the New Eve. The seed of the woman, who would crush the serpent’s head, is Jesus. The woman at enmity, or hostility with the serpent, is Mary. It was God who put this hostility between Mary and Satan (the serpent), and it is believed to be in the same likeness as Christ’s hostility for the seed of the serpent. What exactly does all this mean? For Mary to be like Christ in His hostility for Satan forever, it is very possible to say that this passage implies Mary’s lack of sin. What better way is there to be in total hostility with Satan than to be in God’s constant grace? As the New Eve, Mary undid the “no” of the Old Testament Eve by saying, “yes” to carry Jesus.

Taken from catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0128.html

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Seriously now TE … we all have a beginning, … conceived & birthed into this world via woman. Only Adam & Eva had non-womb births…for obvious reasons. Yet, scripture teaches that ISAAC & JOHN’s parents were incapable of bearing children by normative means. Those two had Miraculous births, indeed we could say Immaculate ones…since special intervention by God was needed to allow their births.

Now, back to topic question …does scripture support such a miraculous, immaculate birth for Mary too ?

No, BRB, “IMMACULATE conception” is not equivalent to ‘miraculous conception’.

And yes, Scripture DOES support Mary’s immaculate conception. Luke “Full of grace”.

 

[Gorgias]

scripture teaches that ISAAC & JOHN’s parents were incapable of bearing children by normative means. Those two had Miraculous births, indeed we could say Immaculate ones…since special intervention by God was needed to allow their births.

Aah… now I see what you’re trying to say!

But no – a miraculous conception is not the same as an immaculate conception. The former speaks to God’s intervention in a physical process that was otherwise highly unlikely; the latter, though, speaks to salvation – by Christ – at the time of conception. Isaac and John were conceived miraculously, but not immaculately.

Now, back to topic question …does scripture support such a miraculous, immaculate birth for Mary too ?

Some would say that the angel’s greeting to Mary as kecharitomene speaks to her being filled with grace at the time of the greeting – and therefore, it implies that she had never sinned nor been subject to original sin.

A question for you, though: are you suggesting that the only source of revelation is found within Scripture, and not within apostolic teaching?

 

[bilop]

Seriously now TE … we all have a beginning, … conceived & birthed into this world via woman. Only Adam & Eva had non-womb births…for obvious reasons. Yet, scripture teaches that ISAAC & JOHN’s parents were incapable of bearing children by normative means. Those two had Miraculous births, indeed we could say Immaculate ones…since special intervention by God was needed to allow their births.

Now, back to topic question …does scripture support such a miraculous, immaculate birth for Mary too ?

Mary’s conception was not miraculous, just Immaculate. As far as we know, she was conceived in the usual way, God simply protected her from inheriting original sin.

Isaac and John’s conceptions were miraculous, not immaculate. They inherited original sin.

God Bless

 

[brb3]

No, BRB, “IMMACULATE conception” is not equivalent to ‘miraculous conception’.

And yes, Scripture DOES support Mary’s immaculate conception. Luke “Full of grace”

.

Too short an answer TE. U can do better than using ONLY Luke’s “full of grace” passage !!

 

[brb3]

Mary’s conception was not miraculous, just Immaculate. As far as we know, she was conceived in the usual way, God simply protected her from inheriting original sin.

Isaac and John’s conceptions were miraculous, not immaculate. They inherited original sin.

God Bless

I like your thoughts here. U may be on to something!!

But, does scripture support these ideas ?

 

[Ophelia23]

Too short an answer TE. U can do better than using ONLY Luke’s “full of grace” passage !!

I would ask you then to read the entry I posted for a more robust answer through apologetics.

 

[brb3]

But no – a miraculous conception is not the same as an immaculate conception. The former speaks to God’s intervention in a physical process that was otherwise highly unlikely; the latter, though, speaks to salvation – by Christ – at the time of conception. Isaac and John were conceived miraculously, but not immaculately.

Some would say that the angel’s greeting to Mary as kecharitomene speaks to her being filled with grace at the time of the greeting – and therefore, it implies that she had never sinned nor been subject to original sin.

A question for you, though: are you suggesting that the only source of revelation is found within Scripture, and not within apostolic teaching?

Yes, u are getting my drift…very good !!
Now, IF Mary were born w/o any sin … that would violate scripture. How do u deal with that conundrum ?

 

[brb3]

I would ask you then to read the entry I posted for a more robust answer through apologetics

.

I saw ur answer & saw u put a lot of thought into it. But, I don’t see Luke 1:35 …as support for Mary’s IC. Rather, it supports HS coming upon / into her at that point-in-time.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Too short an answer TE. U can do better than using ONLY Luke’s “full of grace” passage !!

Wait, now you’re grading on LENGTH?

You asked for Scriptural support. I gave it to you.

 

[Ophelia23]

I saw ur answer & saw u put a lot of thought into it. But, I don’t see Luke 1:35 …as support for Mary’s IC. Rather, it supports HS coming upon / into her at that point-in-time.

There is more than just Luke 1:35 involved, as there are three separate scripture passages referenced. But in all fairness, this isn’t a discussion about whether you agree with Church teaching or not. It was asked where the Church gets scriptural support for the Immaculate Conception.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Yes, u are getting my drift…very good !!
Now, IF Mary were born w/o any sin … that would violate scripture. How do u deal with that conundrum ?

HOW does it violate? Scripture does not say that all MUST be conceived in sin, does it?

Mary was saved from sin at conception. WE get saved from sin at baptism because of Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross, correct?

SO. . .If we can be saved from our sins and have them ‘wiped clean’ at baptism, even though we live 2000 years ‘after’ Christ, and all the dead patriarchs and righteous people had their sins ‘wiped clean’ with that sacrifice of Christ’s even though they lived and died thousands of years BEFORE that sacrifice, you really think that Christ’s sacrifice could not have wiped away one person’s ‘original sin’ before that person’s conception?

When Scripture says that 'before I formed you in the womb I knew you?'

Tell me, Brb, why is it so important in Scripture that the ARK which contains the Holy of Holies is considered itself to be holy? What are the parallels? What did the Old Testament foreshadow?

 

[brb3]

Also, the OT Arc of C. …was not holy until the e 3 items & the HS …resided within it. Thus, same would apply to Mary … when Christ entered her womb ( was conceived within) …thats when Mary became the NT Arc of NEW TESTAMENT REVELATION . . BEARING CHRIST THE WORD… and 9 months later, the Mother of Christ the Lord, the God-man