Immaculate conceptions in the Bible, ...Mary?

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Wow ! At first read it sounds logical…

except, Christ always refers to himself as SON OF MAN…not Son of WOMAN.
Rather telling… don’t u think ?
Can anybody IMITATE the Faith that Mary had?

Abraham was righteous because he believed God.

Even Christ said, Behold your Mother

Yet NOBODY CREDITS MARY, except Catholics AND THE BIBLE:

Luke 1:45 And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord."

But you will ignore that because of your ‘knowledge’ of the Catholic Church rather than on what the Bible says!!!

Eze 44:2 And he said to me, "This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it;** for the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.**

Christ is the King of kings, that makes Mary, the Queen Mother of all.

@ her yes Mary entered into the greatest communion with God that could be experienced

After experiencing closest communion with God ever described, knowing him intimately could any human husband top that kind of Love/ experince?

**Luther dogmatically asserted what he considered firmly established biblical doctrines like the divine motherhood of Mary **while adhering to pious opinions of her perpetual virginity and immaculate conception along with the caveat that all doctrine and piety should exalt and not diminish the person and work of Jesus Christ.
The emphasis was always placed on Mary as merely a receiver of God’s love and favor.

Even some eminent Lutheran scholars, however, such as Arthur Carl Piepkorn (1907-73) of Concordia Seminary in St. Louis, maintain his unswerving acceptance of the doctrine.
Luther’s words follow:
It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin" (Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” 1527).
She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin—something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. (Personal {“Little”} Prayer Book, 1522).
 
Wow ! At first read it sounds logical…

Son of WOMAN.
Rather telling… don’t u think ?
“…Catholics do not think it so extraordinary that she was conceived without original sin. She would have been conceived as a sinner if God had not intervened. Is it that hard to think that God did not intervene when it was a matter of Mary being his mother? There is nothing in Mary’s Immaculate Conception that takes away from the truth that only Christ has redeemed mankind, his Mother included.”

Dr. Richard Geraghty
 
Wow ! At first read it sounds logical…

except, Christ always refers to himself as SON OF MAN…not Son of WOMAN.
Rather telling… don’t u think ?
Are you suggesting that Jesus was not Mary’s son because now you are going into a territory where you are denying Jesus’ human nature.
 
Are you suggesting that Jesus was not Mary’s son because now you are going into a territory where you are denying Jesus’ human nature.
Now where did u get that idea ?

I’m simply saying if Mary was to play such a paramount role, as Mediatrix of All Grace, …one would think Christ would of somewhere in scripture spoken to this matter. Yet, repeatedly he refers to himself as SON OF MAN, never Son of WOMAN.

Doesn’t this give Catholics pause ?
 
!

It is a title that Identifies Christ as the Messiah,
‘Son of Man’ is a title easily recognized by the Hebrews of Jesus’ day

In the great vision of Daniel after the appearance of the four beasts, we read: “I
beheld therefore in the vision of the night, and lo, one like a son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and he came even to the Ancient of days: and they presented him before him. And he gave him power, and glory, and a kingdom: and all peoples, tribes, and tongues shall serve him: his power is an everlasting power that shall not be taken away: and his kingdom shall not be destroyed”

The employment of the expression in the Gospels is very remarkable. It is used to
designate Jesus Christ no fewer than eighty-one times –

thirty times in St. Matthew, fourteen times in St. Mark, twenty-five times in St. Luke, and
twelve times in St. John.
Contrary to what obtains in the Septuagint, it appears everywhere with the article, as
. Greek scholars are agreed that the correct translation of this
is “the son of man”, not “the son of the man”. The possible ambiguity may be one of the
reasons why it is seldom or never found in the early Greek Fathers as a title for Christ.
But the most remarkable thing connected with “the Son of Man” is that it is found only
in the mouth of Christ. It is never employed by the disciples or Evangelists, nor by the
early Christian writers. It is found once only in Acts, where St. Stephen exclaims:
“Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God”

Son of Man is a title easily recognized by the Hebrews of Jesus’ day,
So, … why was this the case ? Why did the Messiah use this identifier term, and not Son if Woman ?

I’m not making the connection …a real mystery to me !!
 
Another puzzling passage is Mark3:33-35.

And he replied, " Who are my MOTHER and my brothers? " And looking around on those who sat about him, he said. " HERE ARE MY MOTHER and my brothers ! WHOEVER does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and MOTHER. "

Does this passage point up Mary Alone … in special spot ? Why didn’t Christ restrict his answer to brothers/ sisters, w/o mention of motherhood, …if Mary is the singular Mediatrix?
 
Mary was conceived without original sin. See Luke 1:28, where the angel addressed Mary as “full of grace.” The English translation loses the full meaning. The Greek word originally used was “kecharitomene.” This word indicates several things. It means she was “full of grace” from the very moment of her conception, in such a manner as to be permanent forever after. One cannot be “full of grace” and have any sin at the same time. Hence, she was conceived without Original Sin and remained sinless her whole life, by a unique grace of God.
Question is, why do the early Fathers who are native Greek speakers even disagree about Mary’s sinlessness? Even St. John Chrysostom says that she committed sin at the Wedding at Cana. For sure, the native Greek speakers among the Fathers never understood kecharitomene meaning Immaculate Conception, so there’s really nothing lost in translation there.
 
Another puzzling passage is Mark3:33-35.

And he replied, " Who are my MOTHER and my brothers? " And looking around on those who sat about him, he said. " HERE ARE MY MOTHER and my brothers ! WHOEVER does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and MOTHER. "

Does this passage point up Mary Alone … in special spot ? Why didn’t Christ restrict his answer to brothers/ sisters, w/o mention of motherhood, …if Mary is the singular Mediatrix?
Mary isn’t the singular mediatrix. The source of all grace is God. This flow through the holy saints, Mary being the greatest of them. But for sure grace flows through the other holy men and women as well, read Acts 19:11-12.
 
Uh, there’s only one Immaculate Conception, that is of Mary. Not even John the Baptist was immaculately concived, he was conceived with original sin but filled with the Holy Spirit at the visitation. Many take this that he was essentially “baptized” or washed of that original sin at that point. There is a big difference. There is only one Immaculate Conception as such, Mary. That’s it.
 
Another puzzling passage is Mark3:33-35.

And he replied, " Who are my MOTHER and my brothers? " And looking around on those who sat about him, he said. " HERE ARE MY MOTHER and my brothers ! WHOEVER does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and MOTHER. "

Does this passage point up Mary Alone … in special spot ? Why didn’t Christ restrict his answer to brothers/ sisters, w/o mention of motherhood, …if Mary is the singular Mediatrix?
Those who accept Jesus and do the will of his Father are acknowledged by him to be members of his own family. Jesus purposely does not speak of “God” or of “the” Father in heaven, but of “my” Father in heaven. “Becoming a disciple of Jesus means accepting the invitation to belong to God’s family, to live in conformity with his way of life”(CCC, 2233).

Thus, Jesus’ words are to be understood as being praise for Mary’s faithfulness, and not any kind of put down.“She did the will of my Father. That is what the Lord praises in her that she did the will of his Father, not that she bore him in her womb.
Our sweet Mother is sweet and holy because of her obedience to the Word of God, not because the Word was made flesh in her womb and dwelt amonst us. She was the faithful guardian of the Word of God who created her and who she bore in her womb” (St. Augustine, In Ioannis Evangelium, 10,3).

So one can see we become like His Mother when we do the will of His Father 👍
 
So, … why was this the case ? Why did the Messiah use this identifier term, and not Son if Woman ?

I’m not making the connection …a real mystery to me !!
Why do you list your religion as Catholic? Your not Catholic!

God bless,
John
 
Now where did u get that idea ?

I’m simply saying if Mary was to play such a paramount role, as Mediatrix of All Grace, …one would think Christ would of somewhere in scripture spoken to this matter. Yet, repeatedly he refers to himself as SON OF MAN, never Son of WOMAN.

Doesn’t this give Catholics pause ?
Not of all Grace:

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm

The Second Vatican Council
(Lumen gentium ## 61-62), said:

… in suffering with Him as He died on the cross, she cooperated in the work of the Savior, in an altogether singular way, by obedience, faith, hope, and burning love, to restore supernatural life to souls. As a result she is our Mother in the order of grace.

This motherhood of Mary in the economy of grace lasts without interruption, from the consent which she gave in faith at the annunciation, and which she unhesitatingly bore with under the cross, even to the perpetual consummation of all the elect. For after being assumed into heaven, she has not put aside this saving function, but by her manifold intercession, she continues to win the gifts of eternal salvation for us. By her motherly love, she takes care of the brothers of her Son who are still in pilgrimage and in dangers and difficulties, until they be led through to the happy fatherland. For this reason, the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adiutrix, and Mediatrix. This however it to be so understood that it takes nothing away, or adds nothing to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator. For no creature can ever be put on the same level with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer…"

We notice that Vatican II did not add the words "of all graces." However, as many papal texts point out, Mary’s role in dispensation flows logically from her role in acquiring all graces. Further, the Council itself added a note on the above passage, in which it refers us to the texts of Leo XIII, Adiutricem populi, St. Pius X, Ad diem illum, Pius XI, Miserentissimus Redemptor, and Pius XII, Radiomessage to Fatima…
 
Now where did u get that idea ?

I’m simply saying if Mary was to play such a paramount role, as Mediatrix of All Grace, …one would think Christ would of somewhere in scripture spoken to this matter. Yet, repeatedly he refers to himself as SON OF MAN, never Son of WOMAN.

Doesn’t this give Catholics pause ?
Hi,
First of all where does it say she isn’t, or cannot be?

You seem to use scripture to show what you choose to believe. Luther said this about misinterpretation of Sola Scriptura,
“Heretofore I have held that where something was to be proved by the Scriptures, the Scriptures quoted must really refer to the point at issue. I learn now that it is enough to throw many passages together helter-skelter, whether they are fit or not. If this is to be the way, then I can easily prove from the Scriptures that beer is better than wine.”
But that is not the point of Scripture!

Angels are messengers of God!

God sends His angel, who discloses to Mary "he calls her Full of Grace, the Lord is with you’

How many people Biblically has this been said to?

Let’s see what Scripture says about that:
Code:
      Jhn 20:30,31 '	Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;

but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name."
Not even all the things Jesus did could be written down!!!

Mary is important enough to be included in Christ’s Genealogy in Matthew:

Mat 1:16 and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.

Mary is of the Line of David through his son nathan His legal lineage.

Hey you don’t want to believe Mary as important in the role of our Salvation through Christ, that’s on you. Stop trying to convince the world your right and move on!

Jer 31:22 “How long will you waver, O faithless daughter? For the LORD has created a new thing on the earth: a woman protects a man.”

Isa 66:7 "Before she was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son.

Rom 16:25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which was kept secret for long ages

Rom 16:26 but is now disclosed and through the prophetic writings is made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith-

Mary is the perfection of obedience by faith

God bless,
John
 
Another puzzling passage is Mark3:33-35.

And he replied, " Who are my MOTHER and my brothers? " And looking around on those who sat about him, he said. " HERE ARE MY MOTHER and my brothers ! WHOEVER does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and MOTHER. "

Does this passage point up Mary Alone … in special spot ? Why didn’t Christ restrict his answer to brothers/ sisters, w/o mention of motherhood, …if Mary is the singular Mediatrix?
Nothing is puzziling if you actuallly would try to read/ investigate Catholic teachings instead of choosing to believe the nonsense somebody has been feeding you!!!

Church Fathers Defended Mary’s perpetual Virginity

Athanasius, the great doctor of the nation who led the fight against Arianism, highly respected by Protestants. In his disourses Against the Arians, he explicitly Mary "Ever- Virgin."17
He mentions this is something Christians take for granted, something novel or needing a defense.

; the end of the fourth century, when idius questioned Mary’s perpetual virginity, the Church Fathers reacted, St. Jerome penned a scathing defense,
Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin ’ Against Helvidius, condemning his ling as novel and heretical.

Both St. Augustine and St. Ambrose strongly defended r’s perpetual virginity.18 Augustine calls 'A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, gin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a n perpetual."
^r we showed that the OT Ark prefigured r. God insisted that this Ark be without
or defect because it was to carry the ;n Word of God. Even more would God
to preserve Mary, the NT Ark who ;d the Living Word of God, from all stain feet.
Protestant Reformers Defended Mary as “Ever-Virgin”

In conclusion, we can show Protestants how even the founders of Protestantism strongly upheld the doctrine of Mary as “Ever-Virgin”:

Luther: "It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin… Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact."19

Calvin: “There have been certain folk who have wished to suggest from this passage [Matthew 1:25] that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph had then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is\ For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph’s obedience and to show that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company
And besides this Our Lord Jesus Christ is called the first-born. This is not because there was a second or a third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or no there was any question of the second.”

Zwingli: “I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel, as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin.”

We can’t prove biblically Jesus did not have brothers and sisters, and you can’t prove he did Biblically.

Brethren

Young’s Analytical Concordance; [A protestant source]

There may be no actual familial relationship between persons- referred to as ‘brother and sister’ These words may be used for any relative- a cousin, or for someone who is a close companion"

Gen 13:8 “Abram said to Lot, "Let there be no strife between you and me, and between your herdsmen and my herdsmen; for we are kinsmen.

Kinsman bond of long shared experience; apart from blood relationship brother nay also be used as friends, allies, colleagues, fellow citizens.

Brethren KJV, NKJV “brothers’ NIV,

Biblical Instances where ‘brother’ is used not a blood relative:

David in;
2Sam 1:26 I am distressed for you, my brother Jonathan; very pleasant have you been to me; your love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.

1Kings 9:13, King solomon addresses king hiram as his ‘brother’

Gen 49:9 the sons of Jacob, Simeon and Levi are united in infamy

Num 8:23 [concerning the elder levites} “they may assist their brethren the Levites, did help them (this is the brotherhood of priests and levites) see also [2Chron 29:34]

Amos 1:9 Thus says the LORD: "For three transgressions of Tyre, and for four, I will not revoke the punishment; because they delivered up a whole people to Edom, and did not remember the covenant of brotherhood.

1 Sam 30:23 “But David said, "You shall not do so, my brothers, with what the LORD has given us; he has preserved us and given into our hand the band that came against us

The Hebrews were brothers of a covenant, brothers of community, Brothers by the seed of abraham… All were/are children of the Omnipotent God.

But the Roman Catholic Church has been a living witness to Christ Birth, Life death and Resurrection since 33 a.d.

God bless,
john
 
Those who accept Jesus and do the will of his Father are acknowledged by him to be members of his own family. Jesus purposely does not speak of “God” or of “the” Father in heaven, but of “my” Father in heaven. “Becoming a disciple of Jesus means accepting the invitation to belong to God’s family, to live in conformity with his way of life”(CCC, 2233).

Thus, Jesus’ words are to be understood as being praise for Mary’s faithfulness, and not any kind of put down.“She did the will of my Father. That is what the Lord praises in her that she did the will of his Father, not that she bore him in her womb.
Our sweet Mother is sweet and holy because of her obedience to the Word of God, not because the Word was made flesh in her womb and dwelt amonst us. She was the faithful guardian of the Word of God who created her and who she bore in her womb” (St. Augustine, In Ioannis Evangelium, 10,3).

So one can see we become like His Mother when we do the will of His Father :thumbsu

p

:
Great answer … thanks for insights on mysterious answer by Christ !!
 
Question is, why do the early Fathers who are native Greek speakers even disagree about Mary’s sinlessness? Even St. John Chrysostom says that she committed sin at the Wedding at Cana. For sure, the native Greek speakers among the Fathers never understood kecharitomene meaning Immaculate Conception, so there’s really nothing lost in translation there.
Wow …
Very interesting!

I guess her err was one of PRESUMPTION ? Presuming to know that it was time for Christ to perform his first miracle & begin his ministry ?
 
Wow …
Very interesting!

I guess her err was one of PRESUMPTION ? Presuming to know that it was time for Christ to perform his first miracle & begin his ministry ?
Something else to consider. A sin is an offense against God. If God was really offended by Mary (As in Sin) then why did he do as she asked? I can’t imagine God giving in to the demands of a sinner… Also simple logic tells us that if Mary had the stain of Original Sin then that would of been passed down to Jesus even if Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit. The reason because Original Sin is passed down through offspring. Adam and Eve did not have Original Sin but when they brought it into the world they passed it down generation by generation. So if Mary had Original Sin then Jesus by all rights should have Original Sin. So it makes sense that Mary was without Original Sin just as Jesus was without Original Sin. Just a thought none the less! 🙂
 
Mary isn’t the singular mediatrix. The source of all grace is God. This flow through the holy saints, Mary being the greatest of them. But for sure grace flows through the other holy men and women as well, read Acts 19:11-12.
CTG…

Another short but insightful post !!! This answer would seem most consistent with what SS teaches… and I share your understandings.

How could it be otherwise, when Christ repeatedly CHALLENGED us ALL, to imitate him, to be W/O doubts & despair… ALWAYS BELIEVING, ALWAYS REPENTING, in our certitude that we are daily sinners, entirely dependent on HIS FORGIVENESS & MERCY, and ever in need of more insights / understanding.

P
PRAYING DAILY TO ALL THE SUPERSAINTS …not just to Mary, but, recalling how CHRIST taught us to pray …the Lords Prayer being the HIGHEST AND MOST EFFICACIOUS for us …and to be prayed DAILY to the Father VIA JESUS, who is EVER AND ALWAYS AVAILABLE TO HEAR OUR PRAYERS, as the ONE MEDIATOR between God & Man.
 
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