J
John_oxios
Guest
How about a reference on this! Thanks
- Status
J
John_oxios
Guest
hello TG,
Chrysostom had fought for the Church’s right to use Icons/ statues, argued against a few heresies in his day, however I have Read some St. John Chrysostom , don’t happen to remember any writing against Mary.
Not everything a Doctor of the Church thinks or has an opinion gets to become dogma, or doctrine. Not even Origin’s ideas were taken all into account by the Church.
You use the Term ‘Greek Fathers’ and have only one ambiguous reference to his opinion on Mary.
Chrysostom is looked upon as the Great Defender of the Eucharist, and Christ’s Real Presence.
He believed in the Primacy and jurisdiction of the Pope @ Rome, Sanctity of Marriage, and the equality of Men and women.
From the Greek Fathers, Adrian Fortescue, (St Ignatious books)
Got something here:
ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya2.htm
The real question is Was/is it Impossible for God to allow Mary to enter this world Immaculately?
God bless,
John
K
KP3243
Guest
Protestants always get this one and the wedding feast at Cana wrong. Jesus is actually complimenting Mary and her obedience to do the will of God. If she was there she probably was thinking preach it my son! Remember Mary so willingly agreed to be the mother of her Messiah not knowing a lot of what was in store for her but had full faith in God and did whatever was asked of her. A pregnant woman without a husband would be stoned to death and she still wouldn’t tell Joseph what was happening, she trusted God. She fled to Egypt to protect Jesus from Herod mind you this was the same land where the Jews were kept as slaves. When Jesus tells Peter he must suffer, Peter tells Jesus he won’t allow it to happen, Jesus responds with get behind me satan. Who stood at the cross? it could only be a woman full of grace that trusted in God that could stand there with her only child and Messiah be so horribly put to death. I’m not 100% sure that the three days the child Jesus was lost and Mary found Him in the temple with the teachers wasn’t Jesus preparing her for Calvary. All he was ever going to ask her to be without Him was for three days. Mary is noticeably absent when the other women who go to the tomb at early dawn. That tells me one of two things she either had already seen Him or she knew what they were going to find. Also not sure if this absence by Mary wasn’t foreshadowed by Jesus meeting the woman at the well. The woman at the well wasn’t with the other women but she is encountering Jesus while unsusally absent from the group of women she should have been with.
J
John_oxios
Guest
Hi BRB,
Code:
Hbr 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us,the Apostles are ambassodors sent for with authority (mediators)
Christ’s visible Church is mediator,
Angels are mediators:
Rev 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants what must soon take place; and he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne;
Rev 8:4 and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.
From the book ‘Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church’ (Ecclisial Classics, pub.)
The Church knows and teaches with St Paul that there is only One Mediator,
(1Tim 2:5-6)…
The Maternal role of Mary toward people in no way obscures or diminshes the unique meditation of Christ, but Shows its power, It is mediation in Christ…
In effect, Mary’s edifation is intimately linked with her motherhood, it possesses a specifically maternal character…
Matt 23:8. Jesus says, but you are not to be called rabbi, for you have ONE Teacher …(emphasis mine).
Yet James 3:1, and Ephesians 4:11, tell us we have many teachers in the Church. From ‘Nuts and Bolts’ by Tim Staples, former "Assembly of God, Youth pastor. The key to understand that the MANY teachers and mediators in the Body of Christ do not take away from Christ AS THE ONE TEACHER and MEDIATOR, they fulfill His command to teach and mediate on this Earth in Him. They are and we are Members of His Body. With St Paul in Galatians 2:20, we say, “it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives (or teaches, mediates) in me.”…
The question is, ’ Does this intimate union in Christ and with one another cease when we die?’ Of course not. IN fact it becomes more radical! The saints in heaven are even closer to us than when they were here on earth, because it is Christ who makes us one. they are free from al sin, which hinders our prayers (cf Matt 17:20, 1John 3:22, Psalm 66:18) and **they’re experiencing a union with God (and therefore with us) beyond anything we can fathom. **"{they are} like Him for (they) see Him as He Is (1John 3:2) “As partakers of Divine Nature” (1 Peter 1:4) in the fullest sense, they have gifts and powers beyond what "the eye has seen (or) ear heard " (1Cor 2:9). If we could ask them to pray for us when they were on Earth, OF COURSE we can - and should - ASK THEM to pray for us NOW. One example, 2 Maccabeess 15:12-16, tells of a vision Judas Maccabeus has in which he sees both Onias (a forme priest who had died) and Jeremiah the prophet (who had died fivehundred years earlier) interceding or meditating for Israel.
10
Having stirred up their courage, he gave his orders and pointed out at the same time the perfidy of the Gentiles and their violation of oaths.
11
When he had armed each of them, not so much with the security of shield and spear as with the encouragement of noble words, he cheered them all by relating a dream, a kind of waking vision, worthy of belief.
12
What he saw was this: Onias, the former high priest,* a noble and good man, modest in bearing, gentle in manner, distinguished in speech, and trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched arms for the whole Jewish community.
13
Then in the same way another man appeared, distinguished by his white hair and dignity, and with an air of wondrous and majestic authority.
14
Onias then said of him, “This is a man* who loves his fellow Jews and fervently prays for the people and the holy city—the prophet of God, Jeremiah.”
15
Stretching out his right hand, Jeremiah presented a gold sword to Judas. As he gave it to him he said,
16
“Accept this holy sword as a gift from God; with it you shall shatter your adversaries.”
[15:14] A man: regarded by the postexilic Jews as one of the greatest figures in their history; cf. 2:1; Mt 16:14. Who…prays for the people: Jeremiah’s prayer in heaven has been taken in the Roman Catholic tradition as a biblical witness to the intercession of the saints.
As faithful Christians, we have a duty to pray for those souls who departed the earth. * According to Scripture, “the souls of the just are in the hand of God” (Wisdom 3:1).*
The Catholic Church teaches that the souls of the departed are not separated from us. We believe the departed benefit from our loving prayers.
Indeed, prayer is one of the greatest gifts we can give.* Beginning on All Souls’ Day and lasting throughout November, the priests of the Shrine will offer special prayers for the departed at Mass each day. *
J
John_oxios
Guest
Fr. Charles Grondin
Apologist
orums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=10139782#post10139782
In Luke 1:28 the word that the angel uses is kecharitomene. So its not literally “full of grace” but its root word is the Greek verb “to give grace” (charitoo). The word is the past perfect tense, thus it means that the action of giving grace has already occurred. It was not something that was about to happen to her, but something that has already been accomplished. The word was also used as a title. The angel did not say, “Hail Mary you are kecharitomene,” but rather, “Hail kecharitomene.” Therefore the word is not simply an action but an identity
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
The Eastern Church’s upheld the belief a very long time then changed their understanding, the Russian till the 17th century, the Greek till the 15th. Both before it was made Dogma. Its very much a very long part of both of their beautiful histories. 
google.com/url?q=http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/imconcep.htm&sa=U&ei=v6PIT66OK4L-9QT_s_D2Dg&ved=0CBQQFjAB&sig2=Vmr7vYFuOEmhnUa3Uo1Acw&usg=AFQjCNHXTy49Id-jiH9Tx019RoIMrhbvZg
google.com/url?q=http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/07/21/more-on-the-immaculate-conception-in-eastern-orthodoxy/&sa=U&ei=Z5XIT7TXLYrk9ASb95mqDw&ved=0CB4QFjAD&sig2=8amiGu8GVGYVyeox3bPXUQ&usg=AFQjCNH1q8zSpZSik6IenDeeeJAMvAc1hQ
Proclus of Constantinople
As He formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain (Homily 1[ante A.D. 446]).
Love the teachings of the Eastern early church fathers. Since “so-many” differ, perhaps that’s why the “Primacy” is most needed.
google.com/url?q=http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/imconcep.htm&sa=U&ei=v6PIT66OK4L-9QT_s_D2Dg&ved=0CBQQFjAB&sig2=Vmr7vYFuOEmhnUa3Uo1Acw&usg=AFQjCNHXTy49Id-jiH9Tx019RoIMrhbvZg
google.com/url?q=http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/07/21/more-on-the-immaculate-conception-in-eastern-orthodoxy/&sa=U&ei=Z5XIT7TXLYrk9ASb95mqDw&ved=0CB4QFjAD&sig2=8amiGu8GVGYVyeox3bPXUQ&usg=AFQjCNH1q8zSpZSik6IenDeeeJAMvAc1hQ
Proclus of Constantinople
As He formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain (Homily 1[ante A.D. 446]).
Love the teachings of the Eastern early church fathers. Since “so-many” differ, perhaps that’s why the “Primacy” is most needed.
B
brb3
Guest
Give us examples from Greek texts …of this word being used …to support ur claims above.
J
jedicri
Guest
Why should he have to?
The Greek texts show this to be so and even if you deny this, I’m very, very sure those who are well educated in Greek, will confirm what kecharitomene means/signifies/connotes in the context of the Greek manuscript.
But then again, how can you deny a harcopy text itself?
To reiterate:
“The phrase “full of grace” is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.
The Greek implies the grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind.
Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning “to fill or endow with grace.”
Since this term (Kecharitomene) is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.”
Now… care to argue/refute with what the text explicitly shows?
L
LilyM
Guest
You really didn’t read what I said, did you? You are implying that Mary is somehow not important because Jesus referred to Himself as ‘Son of Man’ rather than ‘Son of Woman’, which is total BS.Precisely !!! Lily, u always get to the crux of the matter
Mary is doubly important if anything because she is the ONLY ‘man’ (human) that he WAS son of! He had no human father to claim sonship of or take anything away from His mother. In fact when He is found in the Temple age 12 He specifically denies any claim that Joseph might have to being His father in stating that His only Father is the God who inspired Him to stay and teach.
B
brb3
Guest
Because, we need to examine the texts & contexts …of the use of this Greek word !! A few examples should suffice… to prove ur point/claims.
B
brb3
Guest
No at all Lily … after all its not what I say that matters, but what Christ said about Mary.
Wouldn’t u agree?
Christ could of occasionally said he was the SON OF WOMAN … but, he Always used the term SON OF MAN. This has always been a mystery to me …
. …a curiosity matter, not one to diminish Mary.
B
brb3
Guest
Gary …The Eastern Church’s upheld the belief a very long time then changed their understanding, the Russian till the 17th century, the Greek till the 15th. Both before it was made Dogma. Its very much a very long part of both of their beautiful histories.
google.com/url?q=http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/imconcep.htm&sa=U&ei=v6PIT66OK4L-9QT_s_D2Dg&ved=0CBQQFjAB&sig2=Vmr7vYFuOEmhnUa3Uo1Acw&usg=AFQjCNHXTy49Id-jiH9Tx019RoIMrhbvZg
google.com/url?q=http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/07/21/more-on-the-immaculate-conception-in-eastern-orthodoxy/&sa=U&ei=Z5XIT7TXLYrk9ASb95mqDw&ved=0CB4QFjAD&sig2=8amiGu8GVGYVyeox3bPXUQ&usg=AFQjCNH1q8zSpZSik6IenDeeeJAMvAc1hQ
Proclus of Constantinople
As He formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain (Homily 1[ante A.D. 446]).
Love the teachings of the Eastern early church fathers. Since “so-many” differ, perhaps that’s why the “Primacy” is most needed. :shru
VERY INTERESTING EWTN LINKS !!
So, our own St. THOMAS AQUINAS rejected the IC status of Mary !!!
Most interesting, and he was not called a heretic or anathematized.
What say you all to this factoid ?
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
Can’t be right about everything, he was corrected on this point in Heaven.
C
Cranch
Guest
Worth the read: St Thomas Aquinas’s position on the Immaculate ConceptionCan’t be right about everything, he was corrected on this point in Heaven.
B
brb3
Guest
Have u researched his arguments to the contrary ? It would make for a most insightful interesting read. I’m starting my search tonite. Hopefully his case was recorded in writing …and reviewable.Can’t be right about everything, he was corrected on this point in Heaven.
B
brb3
Guest
Thanks for link…
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
newadvent.org/fathers/200144.htm
Whoa now! While I agree that the teachings of the Fathers are not all-impecable and all-infallible, don’t compare St. John Chrysostom to Origen. Origen is a condemned heretic, while St. John Chrysostom is not only a saint but a Church Father, a Doctor of the Church under Latin terms.
The biggest issue is really the concept of Original Sin, which was never universally taught in the Early Church. Today even in the Orthodox Church as well as the Eastern Catholic Churches, while the concept of the Immaculate Conception isn’t believed the way the Latins understand it, the general belief is that Mary did in fact NOT commit any personal sins throughout their entire life. Scripture says that only Christ is sinless, but we should make the distinction, as I read once, between sinless and one who did not commit any sin. There is a difference.
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
The problem here is you are equating the quote from an Eastern Father to Latin teaching. The meaning of “stain” does not equate to “Original Sin”. This is a problem of prooftexting.The Eastern Church’s upheld the belief a very long time then changed their understanding, the Russian till the 17th century, the Greek till the 15th. Both before it was made Dogma. Its very much a very long part of both of their beautiful histories.
google.com/url?q=http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/imconcep.htm&sa=U&ei=v6PIT66OK4L-9QT_s_D2Dg&ved=0CBQQFjAB&sig2=Vmr7vYFuOEmhnUa3Uo1Acw&usg=AFQjCNHXTy49Id-jiH9Tx019RoIMrhbvZg
google.com/url?q=http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/07/21/more-on-the-immaculate-conception-in-eastern-orthodoxy/&sa=U&ei=Z5XIT7TXLYrk9ASb95mqDw&ved=0CB4QFjAD&sig2=8amiGu8GVGYVyeox3bPXUQ&usg=AFQjCNH1q8zSpZSik6IenDeeeJAMvAc1hQ
Proclus of Constantinople
As He formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain (Homily 1[ante A.D. 446]).
Love the teachings of the Eastern early church fathers. Since “so-many” differ, perhaps that’s why the “Primacy” is most needed.
B
brb3
Guest
Wow … very true !! I like it a lot, pictures help make connections ! And, it uses Sacred Scripture to support analogies !!This is a great video about the Virgin Mary and Scripture.
youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA&feature=share
U have given us a winner here. U-tube to rescue…
B
brb3
Guest
This vid made me realize several things.
- If woman ( Eva ) came from Adam, then Mary came from Christ. How could she not be FULLY GRACED, from her earliest conception ? It would seem her IC status is necessitated.
- If Christ birthed the extraordinary John the Baptizer by miraculously means, filling him with HS In-the-womb …to prepare a people/ nation, announce the Christ, and Baptize him ------- then, would he not also prepare Mary by similar miraculous means, IC no doubt, to bring him into world & raise him to adulthood ?
- Status