Immigration, Deportation, and Catholicism

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I don’t understand how illegal immigrants can contribute to Social Security if they do not have a Social Security number. And I don’t understand how they could have a Social Security number if they’re here illegally. Can someone explain this to me?
 
I certainly can understand why people would want to come to Us. But we are a land of laws. We can’t condone breaking the law. On the other hand if the immigrants are waiting to have citizenship and are not breaking any laws and are just trying to survive, then yes we should be chariable but if they are robbing, stealing, drug trafficing and all the rest, deport them.🙂
 
armema said:
I don’t understand how illegal immigrants can contribute to Social Security if they do not have a Social Security number. And I don’t understand how they could have a Social Security number if they’re here illegally. Can someone explain this to me?
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I would like to see something from SSA that verifies those statements as well.

It certainly seems that the cost of social services in AZ is way out of control.
 
There seems to be an assumption that only Mexicans are entering this country illegally via our broken southern border, this may not be the case. Also, many of those crossing the border are armed; I believe that is why the border patrol has requested military assistance in securing the border.

The fact that the Obama administration has sued AZ for passing a law that seems to enforce federal law shrouds the lack of action by the administration in enforcing the law. The time for campaign speeches that list what you are against has long since passed; there are millions of illegal aliens here with more arriving all the time. The federal government needs to present their plan to combat this. It is their job to secure our borders, a job they will go to court in order to keep. The American people need to see what will the federal government do and suing AZ is not an answer.
 
Hi, Patbarcello,

Sounds like a good idea. Now, here are some considerations… 😃
patbarcello said:
I certainly can understand why people would want to come to Us. But we are a land of laws. We can’t condone breaking the law.

This is a problem that has been going on prior to President Kennedy’s Administration. Obama is just the last President to look at this matter. While we would like to think that our laws are being enforced, the reality is something different. Seriously, if previous Presidents had taken a firm approach to illegal immigration, we would not be looking at millions of univited people coming in at will and boarders that rival a seive in their ability to hold back this tide.

On the other hand if the immigrants are waiting to have citizenship and are not breaking any laws and are just trying to survive, then yes we should be chariable but if they are robbing, stealing, drug trafficing and all the rest, deport them.🙂

One of the most difficult aspects of this situation is that you people who are knowingly breaking the law who are aided by those who breaking the law and have an unusual influence on these other illegal people. Extortion, slavery, and murder are all some of the real-world hazards these illigal aliens face at the hands of their ‘helpers’. Additionally, because they can not work legally, these illegal aliens are at risk for exploitation by US employers. What has been created is an intricate web of illegal activity that is supported by the illegal alien one way or another.

Now, your statement of, “…if the immigrants are waiting to have citizenship…” implies that the US Government knows they are here, has issued the correct paper-work so these immigrants can legally work adn are not subjected to the abuses I have identified above. There is no problem with legal immigrants - but the issue is about those who are actively breaking the law and then claiming to be discriminated against when asked if they are in this country legally.

There are valid and enforceable laws that are focus on keeping us safe. Our federal government has done a poor job of enforcing them - and, honestly, that is why we are looking at the problem we are looking at today. Illegal immigration is NOT going away because of an injunction from a federal judge. Ultimaely this matter will be addressed and the rule of law will be sustained. That is both my hope and belief.

God bless
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armema said:
I don’t understand how illegal immigrants can contribute to Social Security if they do not have a Social Security number. And I don’t understand how they could have a Social Security number if they’re here illegally. Can someone explain this to me?
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If they work, there will be taxes withheld–both social security taxes and income taxes. They may be using a fake SSN. However, they will have no ability to recover those taxes in the form of benefits or refunds.

Far better would be a guest worker program to allow them to work legally; or to make immigration easier.

I wouldn’t even be suggesting an expansion of immigration if I thought that U.S. citizens would take on the jobs that illegal immigrants are now doing. But I suspect that if every illegal immigrant were deported tomorrow, those jobs would not be filled by U.S. citizens, and the economy would shrink, making the recession worse. Likely, the companies now employing them would simply move out of the U.S.
 
It is outrageous that our government is trying to stop Arizona from enforcing current laws. We must do something now or it will be too late. It is always christian to help those in need but we should not be helping anyone to break the law.
 
richardacombs said:
Perhaps the simplest scale with which to measure Christian actions is that as Catholics, who according to Church doctrine strive to be more Christlike each day, are we behaving as Jesus would. Would He deny the sick healthcare? Would He deny the hungry food? Would He turn away the impoverished at national borders?
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Jesus calls * us to do all of these things as individuals*. He does not force us to do these things nor does he say Caesar should force us to do these things. Forced charity is immoral and amounts to legalized theft. Government should not be in the charity business because it means that it must forcefully take from one person and give it to another for a worthy cause. God doesn’t force us to help the needy and neither should the government. But we as Christians should feed the hungry, care for the widows and the poor regardless of whether or not they are illegal aliens.

“…[T]he government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specified objects. It is not like the state governments, whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government.”
-James Madison
 
My question is, why are we trying to make a victim out of a law-breaker who FREELY CHOSE TO BREAK THE LAW? For whatever reason, these people chose to end-run the system that allows for people to enter this country legally.

What I know many don’t realize is that some of these persons are desperate. I keep trying to tell people that if they found themselves in dire poverty and see their children hungry, they would cross that invisible line to survive. Don’t get me wrong. Something needs to be done, but Nazi tactics are not going to work. I was in Scottsdale when this came down, and it felf like a police state, cameras everywhere. I can honestly say, “Adios, Arizona,” because empowering someone like Sheriff Arpaio is cruel.

I live in Texas and if an illegal comes to me for help, I will help them however I can – As a matter of fact, I have. Do they need to go back home? Sadly, yes. Am I going to mistreat or ignore them? No. I will disobey the law and follow my conscience on this one.

God bless,
Emil
 
Not every illegal immigrant is a lawbreaker. Some were brought over as infants by their parents, who did break the law by entering the country illegally. The infant is incapable of breaking the law. These children may have attended public or private schools, and graduated from high school. That doesn’t make them citizens. Should they now be deported to a country that is foreign to them and which they have not visited since they were 6 months old?
 
Sherrif Joe is doing God’s work. We need more courageous people like him working in law enforcement.
 
To richardacombs:

First: Yes, Christ commanded us to, cure the sick, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc. But He didn’t command us to force our neighbor to do these things. That would reject our God-given free will. And that is exactly what you are doing when you use taxpayers money and resources to care for illegal aliens. Our infrastructure is collapsing under the weight of the cost of caring for them. Schools, hospitals, and our criminal justice system are struggling to survive because of the onerous burdens of illegal aliens. Loving your neighbor doesn’t mean helping people in need, while ignoring or rejecting the needs and rights of your actual neighbor.

Second: Christ did not command us to love your neighbor while putting the rest of our community at risk. 40% of criminals in California jails are illegal aliens. Arizona is the kidnap capital of the world: of all the prisoners in Arizona prisons for kidnapping, 40 percent are illegal aliens. Of those in jail on drug charges, 24 percent were undocumented. And 13 percent of those serving time for murder were illegal. Illegal-alien gangs are proliferating in our communities. There are rapes, murders, robberies, burglaries, car thefts, child abuse, drug sales and gang shootouts committed all over our country by illegal aliens, putting our law-abiding citizens at risk.

Third: You don’t have to care for foreign citizens in the United States. If you want to help poor Mexicans, you can go to Mexico. Catholic missionaries have been doing that very thing for centuries. You think illegals should be taken care of? YOU take care of them, outside this country.

Fourth: The monumental problems this country faces because of illegal immigration is the result of the twisted thinking of people like you: the politically-correct, liberation theology mantra you propose actually rejects the very Catholic teaching you use to support your agenda. That ideology has been rejected by the Church on numerous occasions; both John Paul II and Pope Benedict have personally condemned the ‘social activism’ which calls for forcing other citizens to bear the onus of illegal immigration.

Priests, nuns and Catholic laity have been chastised, disciplined, defrocked and excommunicated because their involvement in interfering in a country’s laws in the name of political or social activism. The Gospel and Church teaching directs us to ‘be in the world, not of it.’

Explain to the grieving mother of a child killed in a M-13 gang drive-by shooting, or to the family of an Arizona farmer killed by illegal-alien drug couriers, or to the family of a young mother who was raped and kicked to death by a illegal alien that, according to Catholic teaching, illegal aliens should be welcomed with open arms. And tell that to citizens in a poor community after their hospital or school has closed because of the financial burden placed on it by illegal aliens.

Further, these aliens are not “unwanted immigrants” – they are lawbreakers who flout the laws of the very country they intend to live in. In addition, they demean and dishonor their own countrymen who chose to follow our immigration laws in an attempt to better their lives.

Finally, I resent your condescending, I’m-a-better-Catholic-than-you preaching about our responsibilities as Catholics. Everyone on this website knows Christ’s teaching on charity and love. We don’t need you to tell us God’s will.
 
I guess I’m one of those conflicted on this issue.
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On the one hand, I am sympathetic to those who came across the border illegally to better their lives. And I also am aware of what turmoil and chaos could result if a serious effort is made to send 10-12 million and possibly more back to Mexico and other countries, mainly to the South.

 There also is the argument that we need a younger overall population to fill jobs, pay taxes, and make it possible for boomers and others to receive promised social security, etc. - that these immigrants can buoy up the total economy. 

 Yet, how fair would it be if the illegals enter and are granted amnesty, while millions of others have waited their turn elsewhere in the world to legally come here and their chances keep being delayed? This is a clearcut injustice.

  It also is unfair for Americans to have to support with their taxes millions of illegals who add heavily to educational, healthcare and public safety expenses.

  Then you have the terrorist issue, of course. An open border means more likelihood of terrorists coming through. If not terrorists, drug lords and cartels, already causing serious problems with their illegal and vicious racketeering.

  The other day I was talking to someone in law enforcement about the issue. He said the main deterent to effective action to close the borders and deport illegals has been the Catholic Church. He claimed that the church's real interest is less in humanitarianism than in filling churches, especially in many cities, which are now half empty or more because of people moving and/or leaving the church. This law officer also warned that Latinos could, within a reasonably short time, become the majoruty, and that the USA would then adopt Spanish as its official language, other groups would face rising Hispanic militancy, our total culture would be revamped, etc. 

  All this led me to think - but I'm still not sure what my conclusion should be.
 
Quote: “What I know many don’t realize is that some of these persons are desperate. I keep trying to tell people that if they found themselves in dire poverty and see their children hungry, they would cross that invisible line to survive. Don’t get me wrong. Something needs to be done, but Nazi tactics are not going to work.”

Let’s talk about “Nazi tactics.” The “Nazi” acronym was created to designate Hitler’s “National Socialist Workers Party.” The Nazis were socialists, first and foremost. This means, in terms of fundamental principles, that they were willing to send men with guns, with orders to kill as necessary, to take the property of some citizens for distribution to others designated by the Party to be more deserving. Everything else about the Nazi movement was tangential, though if you study socialist movements you will see that they always end up being belligerent and repressive in other ways as well. (For a good review, see Jonah Goldberg’s “Liberal Fascism.”) As Hitler put it in 1925, “If out-voting them takes longer than out-shooting them, at least the result would be guaranteed by their own constitution… Sooner or later we shall have a majority — and after that, Germany.” (For an excellent exposition of the underlying principles, see Frederick Hayek’s “Road to Serfdom.”)

The most obvious, though by no means the only manifestation of Nazi (National Socialist) expropriation by threat of death was the confiscation of Jewish property for the benefit of ethnic Germans. This preceded the gas chambers by a considerable interval. The direct parallel to be drawn with America today is the confiscation of property by armed revenue agents from producers for distribution to the government dependent class. (In this sense affirmative action, since it is racial favoritism, is a further step towards Nazi style socialism.) In both Nazi Germany and America, this form of legalized theft was justified in the name of democracy. (Hitler was, we must recall, democratically elected.)

There are several reasons why this legalized theft in America does not appear to us to share the same evil principle as German National Socialism. The first reason is that we do not have the benefit of hindsight. But largely Christian Germans of the mid 1930’s overwhelmingly supported Hitler’s economic policies. The second reason is that the United States still retains a semblance of the rule of law, though that is now in peril due to an over-reaching executive. A third reason is that the transition from individual rights and private property toward collectivism in America is proceeding gradually enough to be obscure to many eyes. And finally, we have masked the extent of the damage with borrowing and fiat money (inflation).

But the principle is the same. Whenever the state acquires the power to forcibly take the property of some for the benefit of others, you have injustice. In Germany, it was a majority plundering minorities on the basis of race. In America it is a coalition of those who pay little or no taxes collaborating to extract property from those who do pay them.

In the case of illegal aliens, this tyranny has crystallized in a particularly unjust way, because now you have the American government distributing the property of its citizens, illegally and against their will, to foreign nationals. Whenever government begins to rob any class of people it will sooner or later find it necessary to imprison or kill some of them in order to maintain power. (For an understanding of this principle I would recommend Solzhenetzin’s “Gulag Archipelago.”)

This is why we must restore the rule of law, seal the borders, and then look for humane ways to deal with those who are here illegally. Because legalized theft from the “haves” for the “have-nots” has always ended badly. By the time the German experiment in national socialism was completed, they were no longer able to give anything to anyone.
 
Hello all:
To tell the truth I have read most but not all the posts, but have a few questions and comments to offer. Hope to get some other points of opinion.

First: the new trend of Social Justice at my Parrish seems to focus mainly on Mexican Immigrants. The SJ committee seems to be sympathetic to the plight of these poor illegals.
The question that comes to my mind, why isn’t the Catholic Church working in Mexico on this problem. These illegals come to this country because of horrible poverty in Mexico.
And if poverty is the only reason we are sympathetic to these illegals… do we then take in the poor from all over the world? Why only Mexico?
Another question that I have, the Church knows that most of these illegals are Catholic, would there be the same emphasis if they were of the Islamic faith. I believe this was touched on in a post earlier. It seems to be a common belief that the Democratic party wants to eventually grant amnesty and there fore pick up 15 million votes… does the Catholic church also look to gain 15 million new parishioners? Rather the Church should be focused on why they are poor and why the Mexican Government does not take care of their own citizens.
Also, would there be so much sympathy if instead of 15 to 20 million Mexicans we had 15 to 20 million French or Chinese? I doubt it.

Prejudice, bigotry, racism and hate will always exist no matter how many Constitutions or laws or Bible verses we throw at them. All we need do as individuals is treat the persons we meet each day, the same way Jesus would. There is no need to continue to promote this form of legalized slavery called “migrant workers”.

For years politicians have been justifying this slavery for the mere fact that they needed a class of people to do menial work. And the way they justify it is to say, “they do the work that Americans won’t do”. Poppycock!! Americans know that to work without wage protection or insurance or any hope of fair treatment is in itself, immoral and illegal. But as a country and as a Church, we have turned our eyes away from this abuse of Mexicans.
If you want to take a stand let it be to change these jobs into jobs an American can fill. That will lower the unemployment rate and dry up the jobs we force imported slaves to fill. Eventually they may return to Mexico and use what they have learned here to help their country.

Just some of my thoughts.
 
pdzjensen said:
Anyone who makes an argument about the Arizona law using Old Testament moral standards (taking care of strangers, feeding the poor, etc.) or using sentiments expressed by the US bishops has got his/her head screwed on backwards.
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Yeah, taking care of strangers, feeding the poor, etc. are so outdated! Don’t you know, it’s all about taking care of yourself and forgetting your God and neighbor nowadays?

I live in Arizona, and more particularly in a pretty run-down neighborhood that is predominantly Mexican and many are probably illegal. My father has also worked at INS and currently deports illegal immigrants on the weekends. I am immersed in the situation and have a better understanding of it than a person who lives in, say, Iowa for instance and only knows what is going on from the news and what the internet tells them…

Our immigration laws need to be fixed but, more importantly, Mexico needs to be fixed. Yes, a large portion of illegal immigrants are in the smuggling business, however, there are those that come here out of desperation for their lives and the lives of their families. Mexico is not a friendly place. Has everyone forgotten that Christ was an immigrant at one point? His family packed up in the middle of the night and fled to Egypt because of an evil king that was threatening their lives. Who told them to flee? An angel of God! Does that make an excuse for everyone to just come over willy nilly? No, but, it still applies.

A problem with many Americans who support these proposed laws with the sole excuse of obeying our laws with biblical justification have forgotten the bit of compassion we are supposed to have as well and have instead hardened their hearts to the situation and, more specifically, the people involved. Do people who cross over illegally break the law? Yes. Are all of our laws just? Heck no (abortion, civil unions, capital punishment, etc.)! But, are national security laws evil? Of course not, they are meant for protection and are supposed to uphold, as should all laws, human rights and the dignity of a person. So, although our laws on immigration and border security are not evil, they are not good either, they are very flawed. We should not pardon them, we should not make Mexico a state. The Church teaches forgiveness but, not letting a person of the hook. If a person robs your house, you forgive them but, they must be held accountable for their actions and thus, jail. We should be praying for these people more than we should be criticizing them. For all the time we spend talking, we could have prayed a good many rosaries for the situation to be resolved.

People down here are getting desperate. Shops are closing, cops are being shot, Priests are struggling to balance two different ethnic communities in one parish, our economy is one of the worst in the nation and it seems more common for a person to be out of work than to have a job, many complaining that the illegals are taking all of them. I am not a very good problem solver, that’s not my vocation, but, I can tell what is working and what is not. What we have, does not work. What this new bill proposes encourages racial profiling and puts more pressure on cops who are already in a high risk for being shot. And as we can see from the way it has already affected many parts of Arizona, is not a good bill. It has good intentions but, goes about it the wrong way.

No, I don;t have the answers to what we should do but, in this situation it almost seems as if we just have to keep saying “nope, nope, nu-uh, no, almost” until we get it right
 
Hi, Emil,

I am not questioning desperation as a motive, or economic security or political liberty or any other reason people have for entering this country illegally. But, what you are saying, if I understand you correctly, is that the rights of a people to protect their own borders with lasws mean nothing when others determine it is in their best interest to violate these laws.

How can there ever be any law that someone else decides does not apply to them and they decide that breaking it is in their best interest?

Let me be clear about this - there are those who truly exploit illegal immigrants - and without a doubt, they are truly the lowest of the low. This group of exploiters extends to those who lead (sometimes to their death) people through the desert, who run ‘safe houses’ (more like prisons and brothels) and employers who steal their wages. These illeglas are supporting all of these blood-suckers.

Your misguided efforts at enabling illegal activity is only contributing to their long term problems. I would think the best thing you could do is tho help them become citizens… instead of remaining law breakers.

God bless
Emil said:
My question is, why are we trying to make a victim out of a law-breaker who FREELY CHOSE TO BREAK THE LAW? For whatever reason, these people chose to end-run the system that allows for people to enter this country legally.
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What I know many don’t realize is that some of these persons are desperate. I keep trying to tell people that if they found themselves in dire poverty and see their children hungry, they would cross that invisible line to survive. Don’t get me wrong. Something needs to be done, but Nazi tactics are not going to work. I was in Scottsdale when this came down, and it felf like a police state, cameras everywhere. I can honestly say, “Adios, Arizona,” because empowering someone like Sheriff Arpaio is cruel.

I live in Texas and if an illegal comes to me for help, I will help them however I can – As a matter of fact, I have. Do they need to go back home? Sadly, yes. Am I going to mistreat or ignore them? No. I will disobey the law and follow my conscience on this one.

God bless,
Emil
 
Hi, JoeNY,

Welcome to CAF! 🙂 I think you will find this a real source of insight and wisdom.

You have provided an excellent post! 👍

God bless
JoeNY said:
To richardacombs:

First: Yes, Christ commanded us to, cure the sick, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc. But He didn’t command us to force our neighbor to do these things. That would reject our God-given free will. And that is exactly what you are doing when you use taxpayers money and resources to care for illegal aliens. Our infrastructure is collapsing under the weight of the cost of caring for them. Schools, hospitals, and our criminal justice system are struggling to survive because of the onerous burdens of illegal aliens. Loving your neighbor doesn’t mean helping people in need, while ignoring or rejecting the needs and rights of your actual neighbor.

Second: Christ did not command us to love your neighbor while putting the rest of our community at risk. 40% of criminals in California jails are illegal aliens. Arizona is the kidnap capital of the world: of all the prisoners in Arizona prisons for kidnapping, 40 percent are illegal aliens. Of those in jail on drug charges, 24 percent were undocumented. And 13 percent of those serving time for murder were illegal. Illegal-alien gangs are proliferating in our communities. There are rapes, murders, robberies, burglaries, car thefts, child abuse, drug sales and gang shootouts committed all over our country by illegal aliens, putting our law-abiding citizens at risk.

Third: You don’t have to care for foreign citizens in the United States. If you want to help poor Mexicans, you can go to Mexico. Catholic missionaries have been doing that very thing for centuries. You think illegals should be taken care of? YOU take care of them, outside this country.

Fourth: The monumental problems this country faces because of illegal immigration is the result of the twisted thinking of people like you: the politically-correct, liberation theology mantra you propose actually rejects the very Catholic teaching you use to support your agenda. That ideology has been rejected by the Church on numerous occasions; both John Paul II and Pope Benedict have personally condemned the ‘social activism’ which calls for forcing other citizens to bear the onus of illegal immigration.

Priests, nuns and Catholic laity have been chastised, disciplined, defrocked and excommunicated because their involvement in interfering in a country’s laws in the name of political or social activism. The Gospel and Church teaching directs us to ‘be in the world, not of it.’

Explain to the grieving mother of a child killed in a M-13 gang drive-by shooting, or to the family of an Arizona farmer killed by illegal-alien drug couriers, or to the family of a young mother who was raped and kicked to death by a illegal alien that, according to Catholic teaching, illegal aliens should be welcomed with open arms. And tell that to citizens in a poor community after their hospital or school has closed because of the financial burden placed on it by illegal aliens.

Further, these aliens are not “unwanted immigrants” – they are lawbreakers who flout the laws of the very country they intend to live in. In addition, they demean and dishonor their own countrymen who chose to follow our immigration laws in an attempt to better their lives.

Finally, I resent your condescending, I’m-a-better-Catholic-than-you preaching about our responsibilities as Catholics. Everyone on this website knows Christ’s teaching on charity and love. We don’t need you to tell us God’s will.
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I do understand the issue caused by illegal inmigrants in terms of crime.
Yet I read all the time that whoever is starving outside the borders should inmigrate “legally”.
I just want to add a point of view out of experince as a foreigner.
Several times I have spent long hours at US Embassy waiting for my Visa to be approved in order to come to this country as a tourist.In order to be able just to come and visit,you need to show you have a job in your native country,properties,family,no relatives in the US who might ultimately be a link for you to remain more than 30 days and stay ilegally,and often a letter from whoever is inviting you to visit that can prove you will go back to your native land.You are asked a couple of tricky questions to see if you stumble or are hiding any info that may lead them to think you will not return home.I have seem several times people who are denied a Visa beacuse they do not look economically solid enough as tourists.I am not saying it is right or wrong,just describing.
Now,think of any hispanic you know who is probably doing your yard,or cleaning your house and tell me if getting a VIsa would be easy for any of them?
Again I do really understand the point that whatever is illegal causes trouble,but I find unrealistic to think that whoever wants to inmigrate legally is able to do so.It definitely isn´t.easy.
As usual,there is always a much higher chance to get a Visa if you are already wealthy.Here is the point where I ask myself if it is fair to deny an opportunity to someone who is looking for it for a real need.and honestly a child can´t wait for a country to get fixed to eat more than a meal a day.And very sadly,this is what we are talking about in very many cases.
So let us hope and pray that whatever decision is made about inmigration,will be wise and compassive for both sides.
 
I like to ask these who want to allow law violators…those who lie, sneak, steal Social Security numbers, and undercut American jobs…what other laws do you think we need to totally disregard as a society. How about the robber who SAYS he NEEDS money …or the thief who takes money from the convenience store?? Look at the precendent you set by saying that someone who steals and lies,… NEEDED… to.
here is what the Catachism says: (and a good discussion):
jimmyakin.org/2006/03/immigration_cat.html

We are NOT ABLE to take anymore…or to allow those who are in here (some 12-20 million) to take American jobs OR to cut in front of those who are LEGALLY trying to get here by applying…FOLLOW THE LAW…and Bishops—stop aiding law violators !
 
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