D
d97c
Guest
Dont believe the routine that these illegals are taking jobs Americans will not do !
cis.org/illegalimmigration-employment
cis.org/illegalimmigration-employment
- Status
C
Corbonite99
Guest
We are completely missing the point. Immigration means to move to another place to start a new life. NOT to just go make money send it home and go home to see the family periodically and then illegally re-enter the country make more money ect. ect.
No, these illegals need to stay home face their national problems and figure out how to solve them so they don’t have to go to other countries for the basic needs of their families. These people are really taking the easy way out. THIS IS NOT WHAT WE TEACH OUR CHILDREN and we should not condone it from others.
C
Corbonite99
Guest
F
filled2bursting
Guest
I seem to be seeing a theme emerging here. That there are two separate issues being discussed.
Laws are constraints. Therefore they will necessarily reduce the best and worst possible outcomes available.
In this case the debate seems centered on whether the reduction to the best outweighs the protection against the worst. Without hard factual evidence leading to a cost-benefit analysis, we will not be able to determine this.
That said, the procedure in place is that of the rest of the world, to have enforced immigration laws. It may not be the best, but it is a starting point that once enforced would allow that comparison to better take place. Further it would allow for clearer policy to be created to reduce the costs and increase the benefits once there is a set starting point.
That said, not all laws are licit for us to enforce or support in any way. The 1.2 million children murdered by their mothers, family, and the misinformation and terror in their crisis (which we as a community generally allow) each year come to mind. This law however is not intrinsically evil, nor is its point aimed at limiting the life, liberty to pursue God, or dignity of any of those illegally migrating. The effect on the life of some of those illegally migrating is a secondary effect, with leads to issue 2.
Issue 2:
This issue pertains to us as Christians, the US government as it presently exists in its institutionalized atheism/“secular” state is logically as a system 100%, self-centered.
In this world it could be argued that all people are our neighbors. Due to the wide disparity between rich and poor it could be argued that we are not doing a very good job of keeping the great commandment: “Love your neighbor as you love yourself”.
First, relative to other human nations I acknowledge we are doing a good job. Congrats, but unfortunately last I checked we do not look relative to other human beings. We as Catholic Christians look relative to Christ, Mary, the Saints. We reveal Christ to the world. This is also true of the US, as arguably the strongest Christian presence in the world, what image of Christ is this bringing to mind?
God who came into the world and gave more than any other person, setting a good example, but not really making any real change, and definitely not giving up his Holy and Divine life for a bunch of fellow humans who really messed themselves up big time.
Ouch, yes this is painful. That I might not sound like a talk but no walk here is my situation: I am presently well underemployed, working as a farmhand no less, have college debts, living with parent-in-laws, but I still feel called to give my two coppers. Because bad as this, retrospectively it is NOTHING compared to what most of our neighbors go through daily and perpetually through generations.
We have resources that we are called to be good stewards of. The best image that comes to my mind for us to use them is that of Mother Teresa and the Sisters of Charity, who managing their resources to meet their minimum basic needs went out each day to bring forward people who had nothing and give them the basic life and dignity they need to survive, and then lift themselves to God.
We have the grace and opportunity to set up such centers of mercy in the real need of Mexico, and other areas of the poor (especially in this day and age). If these were there, enforcing Issue 1 would make much less of a difference, and would lose its sting.
I would not argue this to be done by an impersonal government, but by us the people who make up our country and the Body of Christ.
Socialism removes this opportunity, removes the dignity of choice, of personal responsibility, it gives power to a machine, not a being. It makes impossible the formation of the relationships and dignity that occurs when we choose to give of ourselves, and so receive that gift of beauty from the other.
One of the fruits of the spirit is generosity, giving of yourself, not of excess, but of something you really and rightly deserve. It is through such sacrifice that Love is shown not just to our neighbor but also to God. It is through such sacrifice that Christ first won us to him, and will win many again.
- Legality of enforcing laws
- The very real needs of the poor, who happen to be our neighbors to the south
Laws are constraints. Therefore they will necessarily reduce the best and worst possible outcomes available.
In this case the debate seems centered on whether the reduction to the best outweighs the protection against the worst. Without hard factual evidence leading to a cost-benefit analysis, we will not be able to determine this.
That said, the procedure in place is that of the rest of the world, to have enforced immigration laws. It may not be the best, but it is a starting point that once enforced would allow that comparison to better take place. Further it would allow for clearer policy to be created to reduce the costs and increase the benefits once there is a set starting point.
That said, not all laws are licit for us to enforce or support in any way. The 1.2 million children murdered by their mothers, family, and the misinformation and terror in their crisis (which we as a community generally allow) each year come to mind. This law however is not intrinsically evil, nor is its point aimed at limiting the life, liberty to pursue God, or dignity of any of those illegally migrating. The effect on the life of some of those illegally migrating is a secondary effect, with leads to issue 2.
Issue 2:
This issue pertains to us as Christians, the US government as it presently exists in its institutionalized atheism/“secular” state is logically as a system 100%, self-centered.
In this world it could be argued that all people are our neighbors. Due to the wide disparity between rich and poor it could be argued that we are not doing a very good job of keeping the great commandment: “Love your neighbor as you love yourself”.
First, relative to other human nations I acknowledge we are doing a good job. Congrats, but unfortunately last I checked we do not look relative to other human beings. We as Catholic Christians look relative to Christ, Mary, the Saints. We reveal Christ to the world. This is also true of the US, as arguably the strongest Christian presence in the world, what image of Christ is this bringing to mind?
God who came into the world and gave more than any other person, setting a good example, but not really making any real change, and definitely not giving up his Holy and Divine life for a bunch of fellow humans who really messed themselves up big time.
Ouch, yes this is painful. That I might not sound like a talk but no walk here is my situation: I am presently well underemployed, working as a farmhand no less, have college debts, living with parent-in-laws, but I still feel called to give my two coppers. Because bad as this, retrospectively it is NOTHING compared to what most of our neighbors go through daily and perpetually through generations.
We have resources that we are called to be good stewards of. The best image that comes to my mind for us to use them is that of Mother Teresa and the Sisters of Charity, who managing their resources to meet their minimum basic needs went out each day to bring forward people who had nothing and give them the basic life and dignity they need to survive, and then lift themselves to God.
We have the grace and opportunity to set up such centers of mercy in the real need of Mexico, and other areas of the poor (especially in this day and age). If these were there, enforcing Issue 1 would make much less of a difference, and would lose its sting.
I would not argue this to be done by an impersonal government, but by us the people who make up our country and the Body of Christ.
Socialism removes this opportunity, removes the dignity of choice, of personal responsibility, it gives power to a machine, not a being. It makes impossible the formation of the relationships and dignity that occurs when we choose to give of ourselves, and so receive that gift of beauty from the other.
One of the fruits of the spirit is generosity, giving of yourself, not of excess, but of something you really and rightly deserve. It is through such sacrifice that Love is shown not just to our neighbor but also to God. It is through such sacrifice that Christ first won us to him, and will win many again.
K
kennethjude
Guest
This string of posts seems bent on justifying why we should or should not help the Illegal Mexicans in this country. I asked this before, what would your attitude be if they were French or 20 million Chinese?
Step back and see your own fault in creating this immense problem. For decades we have allowed our Government to ignore the abuse and SLAVERY by U.S. business. Our outrage and our sympathy for the Illegals should be focused on ending this slavery. The proposed help and sympathy are misdirected. Focus not on their poverty but on the unjust abuse of employees by business. And what is your guilt in all of this? The same as our Government, turning a blind eye to it just for the benefit of cheaper produce or a well maintained lawn. Don’t pretend you didn’t know. We all have been aware of green cards and illegals for as long as I can remember, and that is for at least 50 years now.
Use your sympathy to help your neighbor or those in prison and ask your Government to close the borders and to force employers to pay a living wage and to provide benefits.
I think then we are being socially responsible to all.
Step back and see your own fault in creating this immense problem. For decades we have allowed our Government to ignore the abuse and SLAVERY by U.S. business. Our outrage and our sympathy for the Illegals should be focused on ending this slavery. The proposed help and sympathy are misdirected. Focus not on their poverty but on the unjust abuse of employees by business. And what is your guilt in all of this? The same as our Government, turning a blind eye to it just for the benefit of cheaper produce or a well maintained lawn. Don’t pretend you didn’t know. We all have been aware of green cards and illegals for as long as I can remember, and that is for at least 50 years now.
Use your sympathy to help your neighbor or those in prison and ask your Government to close the borders and to force employers to pay a living wage and to provide benefits.
I think then we are being socially responsible to all.
D
d97c
Guest
I appreciate the last post. I know it is the carrott, so to speak, of the available job that allows these liiegals to want to sneak over here, and then send their money back to Mexico. I think that we need to TRY this first:
- Provide for an enforceable method to screen people who are hired. Make it a crime and huge fine to hire an illegal KNOWINGLY.These illegals undercut jobs for Americans. Ive often thought about this:
What about making employers who are getting ready to hire, and pay these illegals dirt wages, to advertise these jobs nationally, like on USAJOBS.com. I bet there are people in Maine who would come take a job in Arizona for 6 months, IF he knew about it…and would work for what the illegal is getting. Make that a REQUIREMENT BEFORE hiring anyone else…and then only for an enforceable time as a guest worker…required to return after seasonal employment. BUT you got to enforce it !! - Do whatever it takes to CLOSE THE BORDER to illegals. NOW. Whatever it takes.
- I firmly believe that if there is not any hiring, they dont come here. Just…simply…enforce…the …law.
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, Graciew,
I would like to respond to only one thing you said…
Let me share a pet theory with you - I have never seen this in print or heard anyone else say this (of course, this does not meant it didn’t exist in these forms…) just, this is the way I see this. So, if someone else came up with this - give them credit …
When Castro’s ‘Revolution’ turned against the people with Communism instead of Democracy as the political force - and this philosophical move was followed by repression of basic human rights - Cubans began to flee the island. They were welcomed by the US - and more fled - and, they were welcomed to. Now, part of this generosity was to point out just how bad things were/are in Cuba under Castro. Unaccountable to the Cuban people, Castro set out to spread his view of Communism throughout Latin America (Africa?) - and we can see the fruits in ‘Liberation Army’ murders, government being overthrown and taken back, and genuine social and poltical unrest.
Well… we have been playing this political card for many years… and US Presidents have come and US Presidents have gone - but, Castro (or at least his brother) is still in charge! So what? Well, let’s flip this around - let’s say that (hard-nosed as it sounds) when these refugees arrived on the beach - they were just turned around and sent back to Cuba!
Yes, I know that sounds bad … but, the only reason (in my opinion) that Castro has held the neck of the Cuban people for so long is that the US acted as a safety valve. When the dissatisfied Cubans had a chance to flee - they did - and that meant that there were fewer people inside of Cuba to cause problems. All the people who would have brought about change keep leaving - so things stayed the same.
Today, if Cuban refugees are caught en route to the US, they are brought back - and, this at least offers the opportunity for the political ‘safety valve’ to fail. Enough dissatisfied Cubans will begin to demand change and guess what - this is just what will happen.
People getting THEIR country fixed - instead of fleeing problems is what life in the world is all about. If this country suddenly turned … Socialist … and things like private property and human rights were getting trashed … and people became dissatisfied with the US - would they stay and fix it - or find another country where everything is working just fine?
Honest. This is a major issue and one where the US or any other one country can not serve as a safety net because of indifference or fear or what-have-you that is destroying their own country. Locals must take the initiatve to save their own. For one minute do you thing King Geogre III was happy that the American Colonists wanted to throw out being under British rule?
God bless
I would like to respond to only one thing you said…
Let me share a pet theory with you - I have never seen this in print or heard anyone else say this (of course, this does not meant it didn’t exist in these forms…) just, this is the way I see this. So, if someone else came up with this - give them credit …
When Castro’s ‘Revolution’ turned against the people with Communism instead of Democracy as the political force - and this philosophical move was followed by repression of basic human rights - Cubans began to flee the island. They were welcomed by the US - and more fled - and, they were welcomed to. Now, part of this generosity was to point out just how bad things were/are in Cuba under Castro. Unaccountable to the Cuban people, Castro set out to spread his view of Communism throughout Latin America (Africa?) - and we can see the fruits in ‘Liberation Army’ murders, government being overthrown and taken back, and genuine social and poltical unrest.
Well… we have been playing this political card for many years… and US Presidents have come and US Presidents have gone - but, Castro (or at least his brother) is still in charge! So what? Well, let’s flip this around - let’s say that (hard-nosed as it sounds) when these refugees arrived on the beach - they were just turned around and sent back to Cuba!
Yes, I know that sounds bad … but, the only reason (in my opinion) that Castro has held the neck of the Cuban people for so long is that the US acted as a safety valve. When the dissatisfied Cubans had a chance to flee - they did - and that meant that there were fewer people inside of Cuba to cause problems. All the people who would have brought about change keep leaving - so things stayed the same.
Today, if Cuban refugees are caught en route to the US, they are brought back - and, this at least offers the opportunity for the political ‘safety valve’ to fail. Enough dissatisfied Cubans will begin to demand change and guess what - this is just what will happen.
People getting THEIR country fixed - instead of fleeing problems is what life in the world is all about. If this country suddenly turned … Socialist … and things like private property and human rights were getting trashed … and people became dissatisfied with the US - would they stay and fix it - or find another country where everything is working just fine?
Honest. This is a major issue and one where the US or any other one country can not serve as a safety net because of indifference or fear or what-have-you that is destroying their own country. Locals must take the initiatve to save their own. For one minute do you thing King Geogre III was happy that the American Colonists wanted to throw out being under British rule?
God bless
D
d97c
Guest
The problem is that all this compassion goes to those who have violated the laws. Any compassion for the people who want to come here illegally, but whose place has been stolen? Any complassion for those who would have that job? Any compassion for the Americans whose job wages are undercut by illegal workers who work for cash? We (American tax payers) CANT afford to care for all those humans who want to come in here . We tax payers cant afford to care for all their kids, give them free care, free education, spend money to keep so many in jails, and to pay for their needs. Its great that some of you folks want to be compasionate with other people’s money. What other laws would it be ok to violate? How about shop lifting. I WANT that item. How about robbery…I NEED that money…how about cheating on a test so I can get a scholorship…I NEED to get that so I can help my family with a better job later. You cant start that precedent unless you carry it forward in other crimes. Stop illegal immigration…Bishops and politicians !
D
d97c
Guest
How can you argue with these figures on the costs these illegals are putting on our citizens???
fairus.org/site/News2/2085374443?page=NewsArticle&id=23190&security=1601&news_iv_ctrl=1761
fairus.org/site/News2/2085374443?page=NewsArticle&id=23190&security=1601&news_iv_ctrl=1761
G
graciew
Guest
People getting THEIR country fixed - instead of fleeing problems is what life in the world is all about. If this country suddenly turned … Socialist … and things like private property and human rights were getting trashed … and people became dissatisfied with the US - would they stay and fix it -
Honest. This is a major issue and one where the US or any other one country can not serve as a safety net because of indifference or fear or what-have-you that is destroying their own country. Locals must take the initiatve to save their own.
God bless
Tom,I see your point and appreciate it.
Now,there´s two points I want to bring forth as south american and foreigner,and very respectfully.
First,do you realize that out of 2.2 billion children around the world,1billion are poor ?Can you believe that there´s illegal inmigration even between underdeveloped countries,not because one is rich or doing thing more or less right,but cause there is at least more trash where to find food,or more paper in the trash to sell and make a living with?
There will be no borders sooner than you imagine.More than half the world has been knocking at our doors screaming for help and we have been deaf,now we complain they are starting to break through our windows.And I am not supporting illegal,cause outlaws do not need to be specifically illegal aliens,they may well be citizens.
Second,referring to “Locals must take the iniciative to save their own”.I agree.If our underdeveloped countries have not yet socially collapsed into civil internal wars,is because we as societies have given up time,effort,food,money,talent,and love to make up for the brutal economical difference there is,holding and hoping goverments will do something over the years.That hasn´t happened.And having a child with name and last name in front of me and denying him food,or turning him home saying" No,baby.Ask your dad to fix things for you.Sorry if you can´t eat for this week" is something I have never had the heart to do,and thanks God for that.
I have been robbed,plundered,gunpointed,and friends have been kidnapped,and I am not Mexican,this problem goes beyond their borders too.But fortunately,all these events have showed me that I can´t live showing off wealth,excess and luxury on the faces of those who can´t feed the children that day.It´s inhumane,and as agressive as they have been to me.Somebody has to open eyes and ears.
God bless.
Honest. This is a major issue and one where the US or any other one country can not serve as a safety net because of indifference or fear or what-have-you that is destroying their own country. Locals must take the initiatve to save their own.
God bless
Tom,I see your point and appreciate it.
Now,there´s two points I want to bring forth as south american and foreigner,and very respectfully.
First,do you realize that out of 2.2 billion children around the world,1billion are poor ?Can you believe that there´s illegal inmigration even between underdeveloped countries,not because one is rich or doing thing more or less right,but cause there is at least more trash where to find food,or more paper in the trash to sell and make a living with?
There will be no borders sooner than you imagine.More than half the world has been knocking at our doors screaming for help and we have been deaf,now we complain they are starting to break through our windows.And I am not supporting illegal,cause outlaws do not need to be specifically illegal aliens,they may well be citizens.
Second,referring to “Locals must take the iniciative to save their own”.I agree.If our underdeveloped countries have not yet socially collapsed into civil internal wars,is because we as societies have given up time,effort,food,money,talent,and love to make up for the brutal economical difference there is,holding and hoping goverments will do something over the years.That hasn´t happened.And having a child with name and last name in front of me and denying him food,or turning him home saying" No,baby.Ask your dad to fix things for you.Sorry if you can´t eat for this week" is something I have never had the heart to do,and thanks God for that.
I have been robbed,plundered,gunpointed,and friends have been kidnapped,and I am not Mexican,this problem goes beyond their borders too.But fortunately,all these events have showed me that I can´t live showing off wealth,excess and luxury on the faces of those who can´t feed the children that day.It´s inhumane,and as agressive as they have been to me.Somebody has to open eyes and ears.
God bless.
D
d97c
Guest
When you talk about this country taking care of everyone in the world, think of what you are saying. “This country” means tax paying Americans. I cant pay any more money for any one ! Lets take care of the poor in AMERICA. How about the Bishops in Mexico take care of their Catholics…their “needy.” Revolt Mexico !..fix your country so your people will not have to sneak into this nation. We cant take care of you !!
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, Graciew,
Let’s dispassionately look at this issue and see if we can come to a better understanding.
We are to have relationships with others - after all, this is what being human is all about. For those who violate the rights of others - their humanity is also diminished. Moving towards being just with others as we establish human relationship we are enhancing our own humanity.
Let’s not be lazy in our efforts at making good and positive relationships with others. It is these humanizing efforts that enable us to move beyond ourselves. As I see it, the unwillingness to move forward to make things better for both ourselves and others is what traps us and our neighbors in poverty and distress.
God bless
Let’s dispassionately look at this issue and see if we can come to a better understanding.
You have had some scary and dangerous experiences, Graciew. You have been traumatized and it has had an effect on your self-concept and your perceptions of safety and security. Seriously, while ‘showing off wealth’ may be something to consider, most crime against persons are crimes of opportunity: I am here, you are there and I can take advantage of you. I may have more ‘wealth’ then the person I am robbing (the problem with greed is that the person never has enough; ‘more’ can never be satisfied). Don’t blame yourself for bad things having happened to you. Really, it is not your fault that you experienced evil. But, by the same token, just because you were treated unjustly, does not mean that you can go out and rob or kidnap someone else.
We are to have relationships with others - after all, this is what being human is all about. For those who violate the rights of others - their humanity is also diminished. Moving towards being just with others as we establish human relationship we are enhancing our own humanity.
Let’s not be lazy in our efforts at making good and positive relationships with others. It is these humanizing efforts that enable us to move beyond ourselves. As I see it, the unwillingness to move forward to make things better for both ourselves and others is what traps us and our neighbors in poverty and distress.
God bless
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, D97c,
This is a complex problem - and one that will require both ingenious and demanding solutions.
Let me explain. One of the most deceptive elements in the illegal immigration issue lies with the Mexican government itself (yes, illegals do come from other countries and this spills over to them, too - but, the majority appear to come from Mexico, so, le’t deal with them first).
If people leave Mexico and come to the US and find work, these same people send money home to the family. This money coming into Mexico (Western Union has done quite well in this area) prospers this country’s citizens who purchase goods and services and help the Mexican economy. Ultimately, these Mexican immigrants can be view as indirect Mexican ‘exports’ - and a rather profitable one.
Admittedly, there is more to this than I have described - but, it would be inappropriate to act as though this financial reward to the Mexican government was of no consequence. For the Mexican to really get serious about people illgally crossing the boarder would reduce their annual flow of dollars.
God bless
This is a complex problem - and one that will require both ingenious and demanding solutions.
Let me explain. One of the most deceptive elements in the illegal immigration issue lies with the Mexican government itself (yes, illegals do come from other countries and this spills over to them, too - but, the majority appear to come from Mexico, so, le’t deal with them first).
If people leave Mexico and come to the US and find work, these same people send money home to the family. This money coming into Mexico (Western Union has done quite well in this area) prospers this country’s citizens who purchase goods and services and help the Mexican economy. Ultimately, these Mexican immigrants can be view as indirect Mexican ‘exports’ - and a rather profitable one.
Admittedly, there is more to this than I have described - but, it would be inappropriate to act as though this financial reward to the Mexican government was of no consequence. For the Mexican to really get serious about people illgally crossing the boarder would reduce their annual flow of dollars.
God bless
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, D97c,
The Senate just passed a bill on adding more troops for border security and President Obama is expected to sign it. Here is the link: latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/sc-dc-0813-senate-border-security-20100812,0,2293606.story
Now, those that criticize the bill are complaining that it does nothing to resolve this complex issue. Unfortuntely, those who are complaining seem to the have the idea that universal amnisty is the answer - and this is BEFORE we even find out just who is here.
For those who want to honestly address this issue favorable to illegal immigrants, please tell me how do we do this WITHOUT rewarding law breaking activities… which will honestly undermine the concept for the respect for all law? No one seems like they want to address this issue as they face those who have actually followed the law and immigrated LEGALLY. As I see it, we have a basic idea of justice that is taking a back seat to those who are demanding not only mercy, but special treatment and financial rewards (education, health care, use of infrastructure, etc.).
God bless
The Senate just passed a bill on adding more troops for border security and President Obama is expected to sign it. Here is the link: latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/sc-dc-0813-senate-border-security-20100812,0,2293606.story
Now, those that criticize the bill are complaining that it does nothing to resolve this complex issue. Unfortuntely, those who are complaining seem to the have the idea that universal amnisty is the answer - and this is BEFORE we even find out just who is here.
For those who want to honestly address this issue favorable to illegal immigrants, please tell me how do we do this WITHOUT rewarding law breaking activities… which will honestly undermine the concept for the respect for all law? No one seems like they want to address this issue as they face those who have actually followed the law and immigrated LEGALLY. As I see it, we have a basic idea of justice that is taking a back seat to those who are demanding not only mercy, but special treatment and financial rewards (education, health care, use of infrastructure, etc.).
God bless
D
d97c
Guest
Tom…well I agree with you. But you know, I really believe that what the other side truly believes is that there should be NO borders, no nations…in other words, whatever anyone in the world feels they need (I guess, need according to THEM,) they should get it, and if there are borders and laws, to heck with that–Im coming to get what I want !!..because the worlds goods are for everyone!!. I know this horrible Bishop we have here believes that…“The worlds goods are for sharing with the world” argument. Think of that—I want to ask this Bishop we have here this question…"What if everyone in the world who is poor says they want to come here…under your argument, do we have to let them ??
Dont laugh…thats the logical step in their argument. One world, no nation. We could be the same as Bangledesh…whooopeee !
They refuse to look at the facts
Dont laugh…thats the logical step in their argument. One world, no nation. We could be the same as Bangledesh…whooopeee !
They refuse to look at the facts
- We cant afford to take care of these people with our tax money
- Allowing these illegals to get benefits is CHEATING, and is a sin, against the people who have NOT violated the law and are waiting to come ehre LEGALLY.
- How many laws can we disregard under this argument------> “I need this so I can violate the law to get it.” Think of how great bank robbery would be…or petty theft…or cheating on a test to get ahead of someone, simply on the argument that “I really really need it and must have it !!” What other crimes must be disregarded, overlooked, forgiven, because someome needs to violate it “alot.?”
- Now—the illegals say, “Well, I didnt commit a murder, I am comeing to WORK.” Thats why the system needs to provide for additional efforts to make these employers STOP HIRING illegals ! …and to stop undercutting Americans being hired by paying cash under the table, lower wages and make it a crime to hire illegals.
Im sick of the Bishop here telling me I have to have a bi-lingual mass…and tired of “pressing one for English.” Legal immigration YES…but WE get to decide who, when, and where we allow people in OUR nation. If we need educated people to work in computer tech…WE get to decide, not the illegal alien
Thanks Tom
V
vandyke4
Guest
This has got to be the most informative, well-thought out reply to the immigration thread that I’ve read to date. Thanks for the insight! All I really have to offer to your point is “ditto”.
G
graciew
Guest
ok.Let´s move foward without getting into personal trauma which has not hindered me from seeing beyond it.And I honestly care,and there is no strong feeling against any side.
It happens now that when a person is caught in an infraction and this person is illegal,she or he is deported.The issue arises when this person is leaving children behind.here there are two decisions to make 1.what is done with the children,many of which are american citizens(“anchor” children or not) 2.what will be done from now on with children born here from illegal parents. In both cases,human rights for children are involved.
It takes two to tango.Illegal aliens will be deported,and american citizens judged for hiring illegal workers who entered whether you like it or not through American borders,obviously neglected.
Now that Mexico profits for illegal “exports”,is money that Americans have saved out of hiring cheap workforce.That Mexico brings drugs in,it is because Americans consume it.
True as you say is that nothing can be a good reason for depriving another one from his rights,or steal,or kidnap or whatever.I think we can all agree on that.
But since this has been going on for many years,the problem seems to arise when you find yourselves at the beginnings of recession.Here is where I think that fortunately due to unexperience you are missing one point.Recession means that a lawyer will be driving a cab,and a brain surgeon will be performing surgery for 10 % of what he is charging now,and if things get worse,he will be repairing roofs in summer.Recession means that you can´t get a job for years,and much much more you do not want to know.There is still a long way to go here for this to happen.
So what I see,is that you are charging all your horses on illegal alliens,and you have the right get your house in order,but panic is making everybody undiscriminately put these people who have shared your daily life most often peacefully and working hard at the stake,together with those who as usual will claim for the unreasonable at other people´s expenses.and perform violent criminal activity.
Truly,this is what makes me participate in this thread.I understand your fear,but I also understand the situation of those who were somehow welcome many years ago,have an american “boss” who willingly established a peaceful relationship,and now they become"criminals" in the worst of scenarios.
And again,believe me, I felt ashamed of not having realized how blind I had been letting things flow as if nothing was going on,when people were starving next to me.I am now fully aware that I did not deserve to be robbed,neither had I the right to become richer at the expense of people who have spent generations out of the system.One crime is ovbious,the other one is socially unpunished.Could we agree on that?
God bless
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, Graciew,
There really are no easy answers. But, we all can work to come up with equitable responses that simply cut through much of the confusion. Let me respond to your post.Unfortunately, I could not do so with brevity! 
This is Part 1 of 2
There really are no easy answers. But, we all can work to come up with equitable responses that simply cut through much of the confusion. Let me respond to your post.
Unfortunately, I could not do so with brevity! This is Part 1 of 2
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, Graciew,
This is Part of 2
Your economic view is not mine - it is not even close. You see getting ‘richer’ as having to make others ‘poorer’. While this is always a possibility (the robber got ‘richer’ by making you ‘poorer’). What happens is that someone makes a product that someone else wants - the person sells his product at a price where he covers his costs and makes a profit, the person buying this product has his choice from many products and choses the one he things is best for the price. Both win - both are enriched. The money you save in the bank is loaned out to others who want to build a house. Banks do not print money - but, only have what you put in. Your savings help others to realize their dreams - and, yes, the banks are providing a service and they get money, too. It really is more complex than I have descriribed - but, the bottom line is the same: we all benefit when markets work… not just one person or group of persons. This could be another way at looking at the economic model you see in this country.
God bless
This is Part of 2
Actually, Graciew, I do not agree. You are approaching this from the stand point that absolute justice is the criteria - where people get what they deserve. You were/are a good person and did not ‘deserve’ to be robbed. Honest, it is not a case of ‘deserving’ anything. God has a plan for each of us and His Plan may not match what we consider ‘just’. You worked to become ‘richer’ (…than you deserved?) but you are free to do with your money as you choose. You could use some of your money to reduce the misery in this world - you could use your money to make your own life a little easier. If you are robbed - you are robbed not only of money but of choices you could have made.
Your economic view is not mine - it is not even close. You see getting ‘richer’ as having to make others ‘poorer’. While this is always a possibility (the robber got ‘richer’ by making you ‘poorer’). What happens is that someone makes a product that someone else wants - the person sells his product at a price where he covers his costs and makes a profit, the person buying this product has his choice from many products and choses the one he things is best for the price. Both win - both are enriched. The money you save in the bank is loaned out to others who want to build a house. Banks do not print money - but, only have what you put in. Your savings help others to realize their dreams - and, yes, the banks are providing a service and they get money, too. It really is more complex than I have descriribed - but, the bottom line is the same: we all benefit when markets work… not just one person or group of persons. This could be another way at looking at the economic model you see in this country.
God bless
P
Psalm_51
Guest
Great post!
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