Immigration, Deportation, and Catholicism

[seekerz]

Hi, Seekerz,

I did read your post. I have no idea as to what moral foundation you are building on - and that creates a problem for me. D97c’s question really needs to be addressed, because what I understand you to be saying is that, “If I think this is good for me - then do it - and no one else counts!” is the rationalization for all sin.

How does one safeguard their own legitimate interest if others are free to take them over because they think it is “OK”? There was a previous post that raised a major issue that truly confounds me.

The 1995 letter from Pope John Paul II, “Evangelium vitae”, identifies ‘deportation’ as a serious sin against human dignity. Now, there is no qualifier here, e.g., “mass deportation” (consider what is now being done in France to Gypsies (here is a link: bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-23/french-government-plans-to-deport-850-roma-as-part-of-sarkozy-s-crackdown.html). My understanding of France’s action is that these Gypsies were living in refugee camps, had either not applied for French citizenship or were denied same and because of their breaking numerous civil and criminal laws - they were deported as a group without reference to any specific crime a specific individual may have done. The mass deportation of Jews during WW II would be a more historic example of the same activity - except here we have citizens of the various countries being forced by Nazi military to be deported (to concentration camps and ultimately to their deaths).

And, while I have no trouble making a distinction between ‘mass deportation’ without considereation for the individual differences between people and their individual actions, and simple ‘deportation’ which, to my way of thinking would identify an individual who is not a citizen, has broken at least one law (entering the country illegally) and is being evaluated on the merits of this individual action - with the sepcific focus of sending these people back to where they came from.

The Pope made no such distinction - and this is the problem that I am looking at.

The continued presence of illegal immigrants does not make their stay legal - only lenghtens the time before justice can be brought - and now we have other consequences (e.g., children, born in this country are US citizens - NOT ‘Anchor Children’.)

So, if waiting in line (for legal immigration status) does not appeal, and breaking the law is so much easier, why don’t we all rob banks, seize the personal property of others and claim things that, by right, only belong to citizens? If I understand your rationale as to why standing in line is not the way to go, aren’t you opening up the door to these other illegal actions? I think C97d asked a better question … but, take your pick - answer his or answer mine… Somewhere along the line, this issue must be addressed.

God bless

You have still not read my post ( or maybe you don’t believe it). If you read immigration law you’ll find that there is no line for immigrants who have no parents here or have no special skills. Simple. It’s not my argument or theory. It’s the law!

To tell someone get in a non-existent line makes absolutely no sense.

 

[d97c]

Here is the breakdown of how many legal immigrants we allow in here each year. Its about a million two hundred thousand…
fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_research16b2
Now…under anyone’s argument, no one can say this nation doesnt allow enough LEGAL immigrants ! and we, not the immigrants, get to say who we want in here and how many. It makes NO sense to change the laws to allow more people in here who have their hand out to other people, with no skills, little high school education. We have enough poor in this nation who are CITIZENS, and who receiev entitlements.
Legal immigranst are swelling the perecentage of the empoverished population
fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecenters7fd8
Immigrants are 20% of the poor population.
America is the most generous nation in world history.

 

[seekerz]

Here is the breakdown of how many legal immigrants we allow in here each year. Its about a million two hundred thousand…
fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_research16b2
Now…under anyone’s argument, no one can say this nation doesnt allow enough LEGAL immigrants ! and we, not the immigrants, get to say who we want in here and how many. It makes NO sense to change the laws to allow more people in here who have their hand out to other people, with no skills, little high school education. We have enough poor in this nation who are CITIZENS, and who receiev entitlements.
Legal immigranst are swelling the perecentage of the empoverished population
fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecenters7fd8
Immigrants are 20% of the poor population.
America is the most generous nation in world history.

Interesting…most illegal immigrants I know of work hard, long hours at any and all jobs they can find.

Maybe that’s what’s wrong with our immigration policy: those willing to work long hard hours at jobs few else will touch, are not legally allowed in. On the other hand, you seem to be saying that a percentage of those who are legally allowed in, don’t seem to be willing to work long hard hours at jobs few else will touch…Kind of a Catch-22 don’t you think?

Maybe if the door were opened wider to the poor job seekers and perhaps not so wide to the ‘sponsored dependents’, we’d get somewhere. And the solution doesn’t even have to be the granting of citizenship, it could simply be legal permission to work.

 

[d97c]

We have a guest worker program. The problem is that they get in here, dont comply with identification, they overstay their visa, and then disappear and there is no enforcement. About half of the illegals here are overstaying visas…and nobody enforces it. IF the employers showed that they were not paying the illegals under the table and were not undercutting American jobs and wage rate, and had done EVERYTHING to get Americans to work at these jobs,Id go for an ENFORCEABLE guest worker program…but not the way it is now…because the “guest” workers dont go back home…thats not my definition of a “guest.” and then once again, violate the law to stay here…
and Americans will do the jobs illegals have…and they DO !! read about it
cis.org/illegalimmigration-employment

 

[graciew]

We have a guest worker program. The problem is that they get in here, dont comply with identification, they overstay their visa, and then disappear and there is no enforcement. About half of the illegals here are overstaying visas…and nobody enforces it. IF the employers showed that they were not paying the illegals under the table and were not undercutting American jobs and wage rate, and had done EVERYTHING to get Americans to work at these jobs,Id go for an ENFORCEABLE guest worker program…but not the way it is now…because the “guest” workers dont go back home…thats not my definition of a “guest.” and then once again, violate the law to stay here…
and Americans will do the jobs illegals have…and they DO !! read about it
cis.org/illegalimmigration-employment

Here is the link to the US Department of Labour,and the Guest worker program.
doleta.gov/business/gw/guestwkr/
Please read H2-B.Non-agricultural. There is no way an employer can´t account for “vanishing” workers,he would be incarcerated the day after…please read.
Also,see this program applies for seasonal,peak,one time,and one type worker as a "lot"let´s say,for no longer than 10 months,on an intermittent basis.The employer applies to the Secretary of labour,then through the Chicago National Processing Centre…
The certificate is issued to the employer not to the workers…
The H2A goes for agricultural workers on a similar basis and another one for nurses.
I just thought you might want to know,first that it applies for a very specific case and in bulk,and then that it is impossible not to detect the employer the day after…
So I tend to believe that this does not explain that these type of workers are the ones who overstay the visa,and it still holds our evidence that there is no gap where poor labourers fit in the way we are saying.I think…I may have misunderstood some points I read…
God bless

 

[seekerz]

We have a guest worker program. The problem is that they get in here, dont comply with identification, they overstay their visa, and then disappear and there is no enforcement. About half of the illegals here are overstaying visas…and nobody enforces it. IF the employers showed that they were not paying the illegals under the table and were not undercutting American jobs and wage rate, and had done EVERYTHING to get Americans to work at these jobs,Id go for an ENFORCEABLE guest worker program…but not the way it is now…because the “guest” workers dont go back home…thats not my definition of a “guest.” and then once again, violate the law to stay here…
and Americans will do the jobs illegals have…and they DO !! read about it
cis.org/illegalimmigration-employment

The guest worker programs do exist. How many workers they are able to absorb and what are the requirements to getting in that line, I don’t know. I do know it is quite costly for people like teachers and nurses to get here, even though the need exists and even though there is definitely a line for them. The point is, as long as there isn’t a line that the poor are capable of getting into (and as long as there are jobs that legal residents tend to shun) , desperation and opportunity will continue to combine to fuel the flow across the border.

 

[Tigg]

Maybe that’s what’s wrong with our immigration policy: those willing to work long hard hours at jobs few else will touch, are not legally allowed in.

This argument that illegal immigrants are only working at jobs no one else wants has been debunked time and time again with facts. There are entire industries that have been taken over by illegal workers that used to employ America’s poor. The blacks have been especially hard-hit. Father Pat Bascio, a Catholic priest who has written a book entitled “The IMMORALITY of Illegal Immigration” tells the story when he went to NY to visit friends and they took him into the heart of Harlem. There were no black workers anywhere, only illegal Latinos.

Another fable is the estimated numbers of illegal workers. Granted, there is no actual count, but how many times have you seen articles that continue to use the 12 million number which has been used for a decade. Realistic numbers conservatively place the count closer to 20-32 million. That’s quite a lot of jobs.

After the stimulus was passed, it was estimated that 300,000 illegal workers had taken construction jobs away from blue collar America. I personally know many who work in the construction industry. It is their livelihood and they continually compete for fewer and fewer jobs. Illegal workers have branched out into other areas formerly filled by Americans such as fast food, retail, landscape, factories (the few that are left in this country) and hotel work. The Denver Post wrote a series on the scarcity of summer jobs for high school and college students who used to depend upon those jobs to save money for their tuition. No moe jobs at McDonald’s, or at nurseries who utilize seasonal summer workers - we know who have filled all those. I would like to ask you where is the justice in this and how does this serve the common good?

 

[Tigg]

Here is the link to the US Department of Labour,and the Guest worker program.
doleta.gov/business/gw/guestwkr/
Please read H2-B.Non-agricultural. There is no way an employer can´t account for “vanishing” workers,he would be incarcerated the day after…please read.
Also,see this program applies for seasonal,peak,one time,and one type worker as a "lot"let´s say,for no longer than 10 months,on an intermittent basis.The employer applies to the Secretary of labour,then through the Chicago National Processing Centre…
The certificate is issued to the employer not to the workers…
The H2A goes for agricultural workers on a similar basis and another one for nurses.
I just thought you might want to know,first that it applies for a very specific case and in bulk,and then that it is impossible not to detect the employer the day after…
So I tend to believe that this does not explain that these type of workers are the ones who overstay the visa,and it still holds our evidence that there is no gap where poor labourers fit in the way we are saying.I think…I may have misunderstood some points I read…
God bless

Oh gracie - I learned one thing four years ago when I first started researching this issue. One needs to read a variety of studies from different sources in order to get a true and accurate picture. Our government is the very one who has caused this problem. They have formed a sort of partnership with big business and the special interest groups are the only ones winning in this war. It is all about greed and profit and there is rampant fraud with the guestworker programs.

Despite credible allegations and even convictions for fraud and abuse of both H-2B workers and the program in general, neither the Department of Labor (DOL) nor the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) has ever barred a U.S. company from filing H-2B petitions. Some repeat offenders continue to have their petitions approved to this day.

Use of the H-2B program has morphed from its original intent to help employers that need seasonal and/or temporary workers. The majority of the program’s current users are neither small nor seasonal employers, but rather mid- to large-sized companies and recruiters that petition for H-2Bs to work for 10 months out of the year, year after year.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2010/h-2b-tricks.jpg

Here is one source that is accurate that you may want to see.

cis.org/h-2b-guestworkers

 

[graciew]

Oh gracie - I learned one thing four years ago when I first started researching this issue. One needs to read a variety of studies from different sources in order to get a true and accurate picture. Our government is the very one who has caused this problem. They have formed a sort of partnership with big business and the special interest groups are the only ones winning in this war. It is all about greed and profit and there is rampant fraud with the guestworker programs.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2010/h-2b-tricks.jpg

Here is one source that is accurate that you may want to see.

cis.org/h-2b-guestworkers

Well,Tiggs,I must admit that I didn´t expect your answer.I honestly did not expect corruption in this Program too…Naive on my part and I am sorry to hear this.Thanks for the info.
And,Tiggs,I must also admit that it is painful to hear"Latinos" are this way or the other,as much as it is painful to hear “Americans” are this way or the other.Cause it only raises walls,causes pain on one or both sides,or pride on one or both sides.And non of this is good,when there is persons,a person.Guess we have to help each other not to foster this.
God bless you

 

[seekerz]

This argument that illegal immigrants are only working at jobs no one else wants has been debunked time and time again with facts. There are entire industries that have been taken over by illegal workers that used to employ America’s poor. The blacks have been especially hard-hit. Father Pat Bascio, a Catholic priest who has written a book entitled “The IMMORALITY of Illegal Immigration” tells the story when he went to NY to visit friends and they took him into the heart of Harlem. There were no black workers anywhere, only illegal Latinos.

Another fable is the estimated numbers of illegal workers. Granted, there is no actual count, but how many times have you seen articles that continue to use the 12 million number which has been used for a decade. Realistic numbers conservatively place the count closer to 20-32 million. That’s quite a lot of jobs.

After the stimulus was passed, it was estimated that 300,000 illegal workers had taken construction jobs away from blue collar America. I personally know many who work in the construction industry. It is their livelihood and they continually compete for fewer and fewer jobs. Illegal workers have branched out into other areas formerly filled by Americans such as fast food, retail, landscape, factories (the few that are left in this country) and hotel work. The Denver Post wrote a series on the scarcity of summer jobs for high school and college students who used to depend upon those jobs to save money for their tuition. No moe jobs at McDonald’s, or at nurseries who utilize seasonal summer workers - we know who have filled all those. I would like to ask you where is the justice in this and how does this serve the common good?

You were the one who said that a proportion of legal immigrants go on welfare, I would assume that means they are refusing to take the jobs that illegal immigrants are crossing the border for…If that were not the case, why should there be unemployed legal immigrants? Are the employers refusing to hire legal workers?

 

[Tigg]

Well,Tiggs,I must admit that I didn´t expect your answer.I honestly did not expect corruption in this Program too…Naive on my part and I am sorry to hear this.Thanks for the info.
And,Tiggs,I must also admit that it is painful to hear"Latinos" are this way or the other,as much as it is painful to hear “Americans” are this way or the other.Cause it only raises walls,causes pain on one or both sides,or pride on one or both sides.And non of this is good,when there is persons,a person.Guess we have to help each other not to foster this.
God bless you

God bless you, too! The problem is corruption everywhere. I do know that some (not all) who are coming are humble and uneducated to the point that they simply don’t see the bigger picture and they have probably been told, even by organizations within the Catholic Church that it is okay to cross illegally. When they find jobs they simply don’t realize that job has been taken away from someone else (possibly even another legal immigrant) who needs to feed their family as well or realize their subsidies and social benefits must be paid by someone else. The greatest anger for me is that we are all being exploited by powerful forces we cannot fight. And the greatest sadness for me as an American patriot is that there is another agenda at work with the “look the other way” policy of government . That is the destruction of our sovereign nation by globalists who wish to create a world with no boundaries and take control by one single governing unit that wishes good to no man and would usurp even God Himself.

This immigration issue is so much more complex than we realize and we all have a tendency to see only one small part. The only solutuion I can come up with is for all hearts and minds to return to God and the Truth. Would people stand for this government corruption if their hearts were pure and they didn’t hold selfish motives within themselves? Would we be accusing the other side of not loving their neighbor if they were against illegal immigration? Aaahh…for the wisdom of God to be able to judge all things as in reality, they are.

 

[Stonehouse]

It is “difficult to grasp” because I do not see this as the issue. Welfare, entitlements and social programs are two separate issues. Even each entitlement is an issue to itself. I am very pro-immigration, but very anti-entitlement, for example. We use terms like “the left” and “the right”, but most people do not fit into monolithic categories. Indeed, I think you have a great idea for a discussion, but it is not this discussion.

The tragedy has been noted that those most in need of a parable are least able to understand it. People who involve themselves in questions of public policy do fit into categories like “left” and “right.” Their positions on moral questions determine where they fit. That they are unaware of the underlying ideologies does not change that.

The point I was making is that it is no longer possible for America to simply wink at illegal immigration as if it were a social phenomenon which can be viewed in isolation. All immigration, but particularly that of illegals who are unskilled and uneducated, directly impacts taxpayers because it imposes an immediate and inescapable burden on the system of “benefits” they provide. It has been nearly 200 years since de Tocqueville observed that democracy in America would survive only until the people discovered that they could vote themselves largesses.

Today, the half of our population that does not pay taxes votes reflexively to burden those who do pay them with an ever expanding debt. However the “social services” thus generated are no longer limited to citizens. Liberals insist upon including illegal immigrants in the plunder they extract from producers because in that way they can gain their political loyalty. Consequently, tax-supported benefits now extend immediately and without reservation to any and all who find their way across our borders. In Biblical terms, illegal aliens reap where they did not sew.

For perspective, imagine the impact of a law requiring those who entertain guests in their homes to also provide them an equal share in their wills. Those who have saved to provide for their descendents would be horrified. Those who have not saved would be delighted, and would immediately begin scheming to acquire dinner invitations. They would argue that such invitations should be sanctioned by law, and those who resisted would be declared selfish and greedy and, of course, “racist.”

This is the politics of envy that parades under the banner of “social justice.” Demand that others deliver to you the sweat of their brow, and if they are reluctant to do so then condemn them as lacking in charity. That illegal aliens are not to blame for the fact that we have converted our democracy into a system of plunder under color of law does not detract from the fact they add an unbearable burden to it.

Our ancestors were immigrants. But when they carved their places out of the wilderness there was no taxpayer supported system of gratuities. Consequently, they were forced to be self-reliant and thrifty, and that made them net beneficiaries to the society. Those who come today are net recipients, and notwithstanding La Raza propaganda to the contrary that is often why they come. Many also come as part of a “reconquista,” intent on wresting from us not merely our savings but our very soil. They argue that the entire Southwest should be delivered to Mexico. If you were not aware of this you have not seen or understood their “protest” marches.

Immigration should be a blessing to this generous nation which has welcomed so many of them. What I am arguing is that we need to be selective in inviting guests into our home in the realization that they have become, whether we intended it or not, our heirs.

 

[Ender]

This immigration issue is so much more complex than we realize …

It is certainly a complex issue - but there is another question: is it a moral issue? I am unconvinced that it is. Yes, I realize that it is universally accepted as a moral problem but I believe that’s because we don’t consider it closely enough. Certainly I can behave immorally in regard to immigrants, but is it immoral to believe that action X would be the right thing to do? Unless X is itself intrinsically immoral, then - whether X turns out to be helpful or harmful - I commit no sin in supporting it so long as my intentions are proper. This, I believe, is why people see the “issue” as a moral one: simply because they believe the people who hold the opposing view have immoral intentions. That is, what is challenged is not the morality of (e.g.) building the fence but the morality of the reasons for wanting to build the fence in the first place.

Yes, our immigration laws are deeply flawed and need to be improved but that fact alone does not make it a moral problem beyond the obligation to come to the aid of others. Once we have decided to help, what we disagree on are the approaches, and those are entirely prudential concerns, not moral ones.

Ender

 

[pnewton]

You know, we need a separate thread just for this issue. I can give you a dozen links that contend Gutierrez (the father of lib theology) is the one who coined this phrase, preferential option for the poor (altho one poster gave me history that said this isn’t true.)

Who cares? That is a matter of linquistics or history. The phrase and more importantly the idea is imbedded in multiple papal documents over the last hundred years. More to the point, this idea was also part of Sacred Scripture. It is not relevant that someone else used this as a part of broken theology. If the Church or socialists never used this phrase, we know the truth of it from our Bible. Bias against the poor is a dangerous thing for one’s eternal soul.

If you are confused by my stance, perhaps in this world of talk radio pundits, campaign speeches and bipartisanship we try too hard to divide people into “camps.” Let us keep in mind the adage that politics makes strange bedfellows.

 

[pnewton]

Immigration should be a blessing to this generous nation which has welcomed so many of them. What I am arguing is that we need to be selective in inviting guests into our home in the realization that they have become, whether we intended it or not, our heirs.

You know, I really have to agree with the idea of being selective, as long as we are not selective for immoral reasons. Indeed if we allowed a generous documented immigration population, we would be in better shape to track criminal activity and deny those legal entry who have earned a reason for denial.

 

[d97c]

The Catachism says it all:
2241 "The more prosperous nations are obliged,** to the extent they are able**, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.

Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens."
The decision to what extent this nation is ABLE to take all htese illegals who ARE here and who WANT to be here is one decided by the laws and the persons making them…not the illegal immigrant. There is a ton of evidence that says we have enough minimum wage people here (employed and un employed) and people who will be on the dole forever. We have poor here…we dont need do import any more…
…and as far as obeying the laws…forget it !..these illegals could care less about what laws they have to obey or not…as long as they get what THEY want…and for any Catholic Bishop to aid and abet their efforts is a SHAME on the church…Once again…I ask

1. what do you and the illegals tell the person who follows the law—sorry sucker ???..you could have what I have if you violated the law…
2. and what other laws can I violate and get the blessing of the pro-illegal Bishops
   NO amnesty
   NO citizenship
   NO MORE ILLEGALS

 

[pnewton]

The Catachism says it all:
2241 "The more prosperous nations are obliged,** to the extent they are able**, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin.

They are here and have been for decades. I think the argument that we are unable to bear this is feeble.

I am please that you quote the Catechism, but would encourage a fuller quote. In the context of what you quoted, the very next statement is:

The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” “We must obey God rather than men”:

No one has ever claimed that all men must obey all laws, unless they are unjust. The Bishops have been teaching that the immigration law in America is unjust. The fact that you missed this, or keep setting up a strawman around it, demonstrates why it is better to have the Bishops teach, and the laity learn.

Here is the link:

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2.shtml#2241

 

[d97c]

No we are not ABLE. Thats why the huge majority of people here are against it want them to go home. We are NOT able to take care of all them.
You talk about my “feeble” argument?? Welll…
The illegal criminal aliens are here because they have lied and defrauded people to hide and stay here. If they were located and we carried out the processes that the majority want to have carried out , but that the SERVANTS of the majority, our GOVERNMENT, fails to carry out, they would be gone ! NO freebies, NO health care, NO employers willing to pay them under the table and less than Americans would take==bye bye illegals!
Your argument is like saying: “Theft is ok and must not be harmful because we havent caught the theives, the company is still in business and they are still on the loose !!”
HA ! You crack me up!

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Pnewton,

I think we need to focus on some honest realities.

No one has ever claimed that all men must obey all laws, unless they are unjust. The Bishops have been teaching that the immigration law in America is unjust. The fact that you missed this, or keep setting up a strawman around it, demonstrates why it is better to have the Bishops teach, and the laity learn.

Here is the link:

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2.shtml#2241

It is a little vague as to what makes our immigration laws “unjust” as a whole. No one is proposing how to modify those sections that have been judged by others as “unjust” - but, it appears your suggestion to simply disregard these imperfect laws en mass as however people choose to do is simply an invitation to anarchy.

Having people illegally live here for years does present problems when you look at the idea of a country supporting a group as one is able. Now, if you think there is any wisdom in the adage about being concerned about the ‘straw that broke the camel’s back’ - let me ask… where and when does a government draw the line? This is a strictly practical question - and these are real (as opposed to theoretical) concerns.

As I see it, we live in a finite world with nearly infinite demands - no country can make unlimited allowances when it comes to boarders - and expect to reamin a country. Balancing competing interest is how real laws are made - and for all it hoped that real justice will prevail. The real world is something we can influence for good.

God bless

 

[pnewton]

It is a little vague as to what makes our immigration laws “unjust” as a whole. No one is proposing how to modify those sections that have been judged by others as “unjust” - but, it appears your suggestion to simply disregard these imperfect laws en mass as however people choose to do is simply an invitation to anarchy.

I do not understand how what I have said (and the USCCB) is vague. I understand that you may not agree, but I quoted the specific sections that I have issue with and quoted specific Church documents and Scripture that show discrimination against the poor is unjust. I have tried to go beyond rhetoric and into specifics. I find that more helpful than statements like:

*HA ! You crack me up! *