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tqualey
Guest
Hi, Graciew,
I read Enders response and i totally agree … I would however like to add something else for you to consider…
You have expressed complex thoughs on this complex matter before - so, I truly believe you can rise to this occasion if you give it sufficient effort. I realize that English is not your first language, so, let me invite you to reduce your thoughts to writing in the language you feel most comfortable in - and then simply translate these thoughts into English.
Many of us think we ‘…know our heat…’ but it is knowing our minds that makes the real difference. The ‘heart’ (the emotional term, not the cardiac muscle that pumps blood) is up one day and down the next - loves something but then soon tires, is like a ship without a rudder in that it is blown by every passing wind. The mind gives us direction - and, the direction I think we all need to take is to think this matter through to see how we can practice JUSTICE for everyone.
I realize that this is more an exercise of imagination rather then will … but, if you would please, think about your homeland - and then think that some precious commodity (gold, oil, diamonds, etc…) was found - and thousands and thousands of people from the US came into your country to make this wealth theirs. These people were not doing well in the US and saw coming in to your country as the best solution to their problems. Most did not speak your language and found your immigration laws difficult - so, they just cross over illegally. Now, these are basically good people who mainly want to work and send money back to their families back home. But, their sheer numbers are putting a strain on local schools, highways have become congested, more housing is needed, and yes - not enough hospitals for these newly arrived people. Based on your knowledge of your own country, how do you think your country would respond to this challenge? Can you identify WHY you think it would act in this manner? Such a question may be helpful in allowing you to formulate a written response that takes us farther than ‘…my heart knows…’
And on a different note, 72 people from Central and South America were brutally murdered by a drug gang about 80 miles south of the US boarder. I teach a Bible study program and the prisoners and I prayed for the repose of their souls. I would like to invite everyone on this thread to pray for these murderd people and that their killers are brought to justice in Mexico. Here is the link: chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/top/all/7173540.html
God bless
I read Enders response and i totally agree … I would however like to add something else for you to consider…
Sometimes the ability to reduce our thoughts to writing is challenged in a mighty manner by considerations we feel deeply but do not know how to express with clarity and accuracy. But, not meeting the challenge does nothing to get us away from vague in non-specific emotions - to say, “I know my heart …” does not take either you or us as far as we need to go.
You have expressed complex thoughs on this complex matter before - so, I truly believe you can rise to this occasion if you give it sufficient effort. I realize that English is not your first language, so, let me invite you to reduce your thoughts to writing in the language you feel most comfortable in - and then simply translate these thoughts into English.
Many of us think we ‘…know our heat…’ but it is knowing our minds that makes the real difference. The ‘heart’ (the emotional term, not the cardiac muscle that pumps blood) is up one day and down the next - loves something but then soon tires, is like a ship without a rudder in that it is blown by every passing wind. The mind gives us direction - and, the direction I think we all need to take is to think this matter through to see how we can practice JUSTICE for everyone.
I realize that this is more an exercise of imagination rather then will … but, if you would please, think about your homeland - and then think that some precious commodity (gold, oil, diamonds, etc…) was found - and thousands and thousands of people from the US came into your country to make this wealth theirs. These people were not doing well in the US and saw coming in to your country as the best solution to their problems. Most did not speak your language and found your immigration laws difficult - so, they just cross over illegally. Now, these are basically good people who mainly want to work and send money back to their families back home. But, their sheer numbers are putting a strain on local schools, highways have become congested, more housing is needed, and yes - not enough hospitals for these newly arrived people. Based on your knowledge of your own country, how do you think your country would respond to this challenge? Can you identify WHY you think it would act in this manner? Such a question may be helpful in allowing you to formulate a written response that takes us farther than ‘…my heart knows…’
And on a different note, 72 people from Central and South America were brutally murdered by a drug gang about 80 miles south of the US boarder. I teach a Bible study program and the prisoners and I prayed for the repose of their souls. I would like to invite everyone on this thread to pray for these murderd people and that their killers are brought to justice in Mexico. Here is the link: chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/top/all/7173540.html
God bless
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pnewton
Guest
No. I disagree. The things I have said have been relatively free of rhetoric. I have also avoided the anecdotes of places where the law has hit expecially harsh. Anecdotes never “fold” arguments, so I avoid them. I see no reason for insults and personal attacks, so I refrain from using them, even in retaliation. So I disagree on which side has engaged in the greater amount of rhetoric in this issue.
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pnewton
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Are you saying that it is acceptable to disregard hard teaching in the Bible? Isn’t that what many disciples did in the sixth chapter of John?
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pnewton
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Two poinst. First, it is open immigration, not open borders that was mentioned.
Second, I would like to ask you to produce one document from the Catholic Church, anywhere in its 2000 year history, that supports your allegation that the Church has a preference for only one race.
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graciew
Guest
there must be a mistake…this posting.you are referring to is not mine at all…
blessings
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graciew
Guest
I will honestly make the effort cause I am not refering to my heart in terms of emotion.
I do visit prisoners too…and it just called my attention…
I will pray for them.
God bless
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Ender
Guest
Obviously we cannot ignore what the Church teaches, nor, however, should we confuse the personal opinions of a few bishops with Church doctrine. There is no Church position on the solutions to the immigration problems. With the exception of shooting illegals, one set of solutions is neither more nor less moral than any other.
Ender
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, Pnewton,
You use the term ‘rhetoric’ as though it were something to be avoided. May I submit, that by the very fact we are each expressing our ideas we are all employing rhetoric as a methood of communications…and it is each of our individual hopes that we are effective in our communications.
Maybe we need an understanding - this is not only a controversial issue, but one that has what appears to be an extra-ordinary amount of emotional weigh attached to it. Several important groups have lined up on different sides - and a vast army of individuals with personal experience have formed ranks in these different and competing camps - all with the purpose of advancing their position to win the ‘hearts and minds’ of the undecided. There really is not a whole lot of solid data - and this is what fuels the emotions and excites polemics because many are left with what seems like the preponderence of anecdotal material This is a poor substitute for valid data.
I think a working definition on ‘open immigration’ is in order… one that does not involve so-called ‘open boarders’. I will offer four elements for discussion - and others are certainly welcome to add their own.
1.) Immigration is open to ANYONE regardless of their race of their race, religion, creed or country of origin.
2.) Immigration is open to ANYONE who does not have a demonstrated history of serious law violations prior to seeking to immigrate to the US.
3.) Immigration is open to ANYONE who (as in previous periods of our country’s history) can demonstrate a basic proficiency in English.
4.) Immigration is open to ANYONE who can demonstrate that they have gainful employment in the US or they have someone to sponsor them so that they are not put on public assistance.
By the very nature, of human movement, only so-many people can be admitted each year. This means that some will have to wait for admission. Issues like people fleeing persecution and opression would be considered in a seperate area.
In my opinion, these four elements would be equally applied and could stand as a model in promoting the US as a country of equal opportunity for all who really want to make the US their permanent home.
Let’s see what develops in this discussion as we try to produce more light than heat!
You use the term ‘rhetoric’ as though it were something to be avoided. May I submit, that by the very fact we are each expressing our ideas we are all employing rhetoric as a methood of communications…and it is each of our individual hopes that we are effective in our communications.
I am not aware of any insults or personal attacks, Pnewton, but, if I offended you, than I apologize.
Maybe we need an understanding - this is not only a controversial issue, but one that has what appears to be an extra-ordinary amount of emotional weigh attached to it. Several important groups have lined up on different sides - and a vast army of individuals with personal experience have formed ranks in these different and competing camps - all with the purpose of advancing their position to win the ‘hearts and minds’ of the undecided. There really is not a whole lot of solid data - and this is what fuels the emotions and excites polemics because many are left with what seems like the preponderence of anecdotal material This is a poor substitute for valid data.
I think a working definition on ‘open immigration’ is in order… one that does not involve so-called ‘open boarders’. I will offer four elements for discussion - and others are certainly welcome to add their own.
1.) Immigration is open to ANYONE regardless of their race of their race, religion, creed or country of origin.
2.) Immigration is open to ANYONE who does not have a demonstrated history of serious law violations prior to seeking to immigrate to the US.
3.) Immigration is open to ANYONE who (as in previous periods of our country’s history) can demonstrate a basic proficiency in English.
4.) Immigration is open to ANYONE who can demonstrate that they have gainful employment in the US or they have someone to sponsor them so that they are not put on public assistance.
By the very nature, of human movement, only so-many people can be admitted each year. This means that some will have to wait for admission. Issues like people fleeing persecution and opression would be considered in a seperate area.
In my opinion, these four elements would be equally applied and could stand as a model in promoting the US as a country of equal opportunity for all who really want to make the US their permanent home.
Let’s see what develops in this discussion as we try to produce more light than heat!
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tqualey
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WilliamWalsh
Guest
We have an obligation to obey just laws, and reasonable controls on immigration are just. Condoning the violation of such laws is scandalous. It is understandable that many Mexicans wish to escape their failed socialistic mess of a country. However, there are politicians here who desire such immigration so they can more easily make the United States into a failed socialistic mess of a country. The current administration and the ruling party more committed to a radical ideology than to the good of their country. We should secure our border against lawless entry and we should enforce duly adopted just laws. On the other hand, to deport vast numbers of settled people is unjust. These people are here largely due to bad faith on the part of our own government and the political class. We need to extirpate the bad faith on all sides of this issue.
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tqualey
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Hi, WilliamWalsh,
Welcome to CAF - I think you will find it refreshingly stimulating when it comes to discussing ideas.
These are interesting ideas - and, I think you are right about the, “…failed socialistic mess…” concept. I have two questions about your post…
1.) In what sense is it UNJUST to remove people who knowingly broke the law?
While I understand that children born in the US to illegal immigrants present a unique situation - what other groups are you considering that JUSTICE is owed to? I ask this, because as soon as people start to talk about justice and injustice - the basic idea of following the sequence of events is carefully avoided. At least in this case. I am aware of some art treasures looted from Jews and others in Nazi Germany/Europe were reunited with (if not the actual owners) families who claimed to have originally owned them. Now, I am guessing that there were at least some people who purchased these art works in good faith - and now - after finding out they were stolen…50 years later… are out of their money. Admittedly, we are talking about people in the first case and property in the second - but, it would seem that there is a principle at work here involving justice - both for those who want to work with it and those who want to evade it.
2.) What are your thoughts on the 1986 law that attempted to legalize, illegal immigrants who had been living in this country and establish a path to US citizenship?
These people ‘settled’… some workied with the law, some didn’t and many more illegal immigrants came over - it looks like this law was a failure. I am sure there are many reasons for this failure, but, we have to at least acknowledge an effort to afford legal status was made in this area before we launch another such program again. Tjhere has to be a lesson or two we can learn from - but, maybe this is just wishful thinking on my part.
Again, welcome to the list.
God bless
Welcome to CAF - I think you will find it refreshingly stimulating when it comes to discussing ideas.
These are interesting ideas - and, I think you are right about the, “…failed socialistic mess…” concept. I have two questions about your post…
1.) In what sense is it UNJUST to remove people who knowingly broke the law?
While I understand that children born in the US to illegal immigrants present a unique situation - what other groups are you considering that JUSTICE is owed to? I ask this, because as soon as people start to talk about justice and injustice - the basic idea of following the sequence of events is carefully avoided. At least in this case. I am aware of some art treasures looted from Jews and others in Nazi Germany/Europe were reunited with (if not the actual owners) families who claimed to have originally owned them. Now, I am guessing that there were at least some people who purchased these art works in good faith - and now - after finding out they were stolen…50 years later… are out of their money. Admittedly, we are talking about people in the first case and property in the second - but, it would seem that there is a principle at work here involving justice - both for those who want to work with it and those who want to evade it.
2.) What are your thoughts on the 1986 law that attempted to legalize, illegal immigrants who had been living in this country and establish a path to US citizenship?
These people ‘settled’… some workied with the law, some didn’t and many more illegal immigrants came over - it looks like this law was a failure. I am sure there are many reasons for this failure, but, we have to at least acknowledge an effort to afford legal status was made in this area before we launch another such program again. Tjhere has to be a lesson or two we can learn from - but, maybe this is just wishful thinking on my part.
Again, welcome to the list.
God bless
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pnewton
Guest
I think your categories are very well thought. Though not everyone will fit perfectly, they are still as good as it can get.
I am mostly in number two, that all non-criminals should be allowed to enter and work. However, I do not think they should receive any public assistance beyond basics, namely, emergency medical care, law enforcement and public school. I also believe that even for this, they should have a resident worker tax deducted from their pay (on a straight percentage) from their pay. Realize that they are already be paying taxes in the form of property taxes and sales tax. I think all that can work here for a given period of time should be offered citizenship.
I come from the opinion that history has taught millions can be admitted and can lead to an increase of prosperity here.
I had one more thought. It is pointed out that Democrats and liberals are really pro-immigration and just want to pad their numbers at the polls. The last two pro-immigration presidents, that acted and didn’t just talk, were George Bush and Ronald Reagan. There is no reason why either party should cede these voters without a fight.
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, Pnewton,
Thank you for participating.
What I would like to see is more of the posters to jump in and let’s knock these ideas around and see if we can come up with something that we could suggest to our elected federal representatives. Not to take anything away from these Office Holders - but, from the way I see it, these guys need both ideas and encouragement to stop sitting on the fence!
And, yes, I really am serious - if during the process we see something that looks do-able, we need to share it with those in power. I am a firm believer that not all wisdom resides in Washington … actually, there have been times when I have wondered if ANY wisdom is out there!
God bless
Thank you for participating.
What I would like to see is more of the posters to jump in and let’s knock these ideas around and see if we can come up with something that we could suggest to our elected federal representatives. Not to take anything away from these Office Holders - but, from the way I see it, these guys need both ideas and encouragement to stop sitting on the fence!
And, yes, I really am serious - if during the process we see something that looks do-able, we need to share it with those in power. I am a firm believer that not all wisdom resides in Washington … actually, there have been times when I have wondered if ANY wisdom is out there!
God bless
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d97c
Guest
Here’s an idea I have wanted to propose. The reason given by most people who are ok with allowing the illegals in here is that employers cant get people to do the jobs and they need the illegals. Well, not only is it not true that Americans wont do those jobs…for example read this------->
cis.org/illegalimmigration-employment
BUT
My objection to that argument is that there are Americans who would take those jobs IF they knew they were available. I mean we have over 9.5% unemployment…more than that in Michigan, for example…In other words, dont tell me these jobs would not be filled by Americans if the employers paid decent wages and not cheap cash under the table like they do to to the illegals. Nevertheless, what about the feds setting up a system that requires the employer who says “I need to hire an illegal alien to do this job” being required to advertise this job for 30 days over a federally run web site (like USAjobs.com, for example) and making the employer do all he can to find an American to do the job BEFORE hiring the illegal, and then only for 6 months in a guest worker situation with the requirement that the illegal go home (and enforced) after 6 months, UNLESS the employer cannot get an American to take the job the illegal has after the 6 months. Its too easy to screw the American citizen and to find an illegal for under the table cash money. NO thought should be entertained unless more effort is made to FIND and then HIRE and American. Once that effort is totally exhausted, nationwide, a temporary work visa, enforced (and really TEMPORARY) could be entertained.
cis.org/illegalimmigration-employment
BUT
My objection to that argument is that there are Americans who would take those jobs IF they knew they were available. I mean we have over 9.5% unemployment…more than that in Michigan, for example…In other words, dont tell me these jobs would not be filled by Americans if the employers paid decent wages and not cheap cash under the table like they do to to the illegals. Nevertheless, what about the feds setting up a system that requires the employer who says “I need to hire an illegal alien to do this job” being required to advertise this job for 30 days over a federally run web site (like USAjobs.com, for example) and making the employer do all he can to find an American to do the job BEFORE hiring the illegal, and then only for 6 months in a guest worker situation with the requirement that the illegal go home (and enforced) after 6 months, UNLESS the employer cannot get an American to take the job the illegal has after the 6 months. Its too easy to screw the American citizen and to find an illegal for under the table cash money. NO thought should be entertained unless more effort is made to FIND and then HIRE and American. Once that effort is totally exhausted, nationwide, a temporary work visa, enforced (and really TEMPORARY) could be entertained.
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pnewton
Guest
I have always thought that it is more a lack of fortitude than wisdom that plagues the Beltway, but I get your point.HiI am a firm believer that not all wisdom resides in Washington … actually, there have been times when I have wondered if ANY wisdom is out there!
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, D97c,
OK … let me see if I understand what you proposing…
God bless
OK … let me see if I understand what you proposing…
I totally agree with the idea of hiring Americans - just how to pull this off is the issue (at least as far as I am concerned)…My objection to that argument is that there are Americans who would take those jobs IF they knew they were available. I mean we have over 9.5% unemployment…more than that in Michigan, for example…In other words, dont tell me these jobs would not be filled by Americans if the employers paid decent wages and not cheap cash under the table like they do to to the illegals.
You have set this argument up in a curious way, D97c.
First these unemployed Americans are demanding decent wages from employers who are already breaking federal and state laws by not only paying less than the Federal Minimum Wage, but are (most probably) not withholding taxes and not paying the employer’s portion of FICA. These cut-throat employers are already breaking all kinds of laws, what do you think would motivate them to hire Americans? Honest. I just do not see this happening.
Second, we do not know just how many illegal immigrants who are willing and able to work there are in this country… this makes estimates very difficult when you start getting into specifics like the unemployment rate in particular parts of the country. Michigan, for example, has been closely tied to the auto industry - a lot of skilled trades involved in building cars… and when they shut down it impacts on a lot of other folks who have skilled and semi-skilled trades.
**Nevertheless, what about the feds setting up a system that requires the employer who says “I need to hire an illegal alien to do this job”
You know, these employers are real scum-bags… but, even they are protected by the Constitution so that they do not have to incriminate themselves! Requiring these employers to publicly announce they are going to be hiring an illegal immigrants…
being required to advertise this job for 30 days over a federally run web site (like USAjobs.com, for example) and making the employer do all he can to find an American to do the job BEFORE hiring the illegal, and then only for 6 months in a guest worker situation with the requirement that the illegal go home (and enforced) after 6 months, UNLESS the employer cannot get an American to take the job the illegal has after the 6 months**. Its too easy to screw the American citizen and to find an illegal for under the table cash money.
I think it is well past the time we have put up with these dishonest employers. If any group deserves jail time - it is this group of crooks who not only cheat the government, but also the illegal immigrants.
NO thought should be entertained unless more effort is made to FIND and then HIRE and American. Once that effort is totally exhausted, nationwide, a temporary work visa, enforced (and really TEMPORARY) could be entertained.
God bless
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graciew
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Tigg
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We’ve been doing this for quite some time now, and many organizations (like NumbersUSA) have testified before Congress with facts and figures. They are ignored. Altho the grassroots movement soundly shut down the amnesty push a couple of summers ago (there were so many calls from the American public that the White House switchboard actually failed) I have little faith anymore in the representative government we are supposed to have. The healthcare bill was passed against the will of voters and the pleas of constituents were virtually disregarded. I read that progressives (BOTH parties) are working on a way to pass a de facto amnesty without a vote from Congress by stopping any deportations until “reform” (a misnomer) can be passed giving those here illegally full work and residency rights. Of course, church leaders are soundly behind this idea which, imho, would virtually tear the Constitution (what’s left of it) in two.What I would like to see is more of the posters to jump in and let’s knock these ideas around and see if we can come up with something that we could suggest to our elected federal representatives. Not to take anything away from these Office Holders - but, from the way I see it, these guys need both ideas and encouragement to stop sitting on the fence!
And, yes, I really am serious - if during the process we see something that looks do-able, we need to share it with those in power. I am a firm believer that not all wisdom resides in Washington … actually, there have been times when I have wondered if ANY wisdom is out there!
God bless
Again, what we are battling is corruption at the highest levels of a movement which is bound and determined to impose their agenda on We, the People. And like a previous poster suggested, it is socialism and the act of making us totally dependent on, and bound by the chains of government.
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d97c
Guest
Let me be clear. The new policy would state, clearly, that employers can no longer hire illegals under the table…period. Pushisable crime–enforced.The new law would state that if an employer is not successful locally in hiring an American citizen, (and that must be proved)he or she MUST advertise in the federal web site (maybe usajobs.com–which really is a web site, or even a statewide web site) .Unemployed American citizens would be told, through public service announcements, and local unemployment offices, that there are these jobs available in these different cities. The notfication would afford the opportunity for persons in different states, or even in the same states where the employer wants to hire (but hasnt advertised in a different local area in a state.) If the standard wage rate is offered by the employer, (because there can be no cash-for-illegals-type wage rate)Im betting some of the over-9 1/2 per cent unemployed in this Obama-nation would take the seasonal job or even permanent–just to take care of some bills, etc etc.
THEN AND ONLY THEN–
IF the effort by the employer fails , the employer would be able to use the NEW , TEMPORARY guest worker program for persons in other countries which is enforcable, “trackable,” and processed in the NEW law. Temporary foreign workers would have to be given a different type of ID # , so no current illegals in the US could get the job, but no SS money would be taken from their pay, since they are TEMPORARY workers and not citizens. They could not be paid with cash.
They would have to find their way to a transport center at certain border checkpoints where they would be transported to the border state temporary jobs. After 6 months, the employer would have to re-advertise the job so an American citizen could have a chance to get it, through the process mentioned above. If the employer were not successful, he could retain the foreign worker previously hired, if the employer so desires.
Details can be worked out, but this, IF ENFORCED, can stop these illegals and employers from defeating the system. If NOT enforced, we are in the same sorry shape we are in today.
THEN AND ONLY THEN–
IF the effort by the employer fails , the employer would be able to use the NEW , TEMPORARY guest worker program for persons in other countries which is enforcable, “trackable,” and processed in the NEW law. Temporary foreign workers would have to be given a different type of ID # , so no current illegals in the US could get the job, but no SS money would be taken from their pay, since they are TEMPORARY workers and not citizens. They could not be paid with cash.
They would have to find their way to a transport center at certain border checkpoints where they would be transported to the border state temporary jobs. After 6 months, the employer would have to re-advertise the job so an American citizen could have a chance to get it, through the process mentioned above. If the employer were not successful, he could retain the foreign worker previously hired, if the employer so desires.
Details can be worked out, but this, IF ENFORCED, can stop these illegals and employers from defeating the system. If NOT enforced, we are in the same sorry shape we are in today.
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