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Ituyu
Guest
Because there is no such thing as an “illegal” person. We are all made in God’s image.
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smokey_17
Guest
I am all for immigration. We have way for all immigrates to become citizens in this country. The same as the Catholic church has a way for everyone to become Catholic. Take the steps become a Catholic and take the steps and become a Citizen. This should be called an illegal immigration rally. The church should not support the illegal actions of any group.
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Ituyu
Guest
“We already have 13 million.”Some of the folks on our forum are very kind and idealistic. But just how many illegals are we to assimilate? We already have 13 million. Our hospitals are stretched, our schools are stretched. I just don’t understand why they can’t see that. My father came as an immigrant LEGALLY. I just don’t think the ends justify the means here. Whatever happened to laws?
If we legalize them we won’t any.
“Our hospitals are stretched, our schools are stretched. I just don’t understand why they can’t see that.”
That is actually a State problem. The Federal government should and can reimburse the states.
Because “LEGALLY” is a hollow claim. There is no difference between the reasons previous immigrants came and the reasons they come today, work. And, for most of our ancestors they weren’t subjected to arbitrary policies. And, we need these people as much as they need us.
“Whatever happened to laws?”
What usually happens to laws that don’t work, they get changed or are unenforced.
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Ituyu
Guest
That’s why we have a Supreme Court to decide Constitutional cases and the Freedom of Speech has been deemed a right even for “illegal” aliens.quote=Verisimilitude;2217012]What law is pertinent?
The people are legal US citizens. Not foreign nationals.
Same here, the people are legal US citizens. Not illegal foreign nationals.
The people here are specific to US citizens though these protectins have been extended to any person regardless of staus. Read the Patriot Act for more.
All of these laws were written with respect to US citizens. As it has nothing to do with the right to assemble or protest- when they are arrested for illegally assembling and protesting, we extend these same protections to them. Big difference.
The preamble is important with respect to who “the people” are. Because it is the preamble to all the laws that follow, the definition of people in the law is subject to the meaning that preceeds it. All the laws, Amendments…apply to people of the United States. Mexican nationals are not legal people of the US.
.
See above. Define what they qualifications are. I’ll remind you, I have already cited the qualifications and requirements already required by law to become a US citizen and anyone here currently illegal is disqualified by the nature of being here illegally.
ABSOLUTELY! The “illegal” have come here by virtue of their God given instinct to survive and their obligatons to their families. I think it shows awful “character” to turn them away when we can accommodate them and need them.Does that show good moral character?
I
Ituyu
Guest
QUOTE]
This is about as Constitutuional as an amendment that would deny birth rights to persons born within our borders.Ackmaljljds666 of Iran will be happy to hear you say that. Now all he has to do is smuggle in half a million Iranians into the US, march on Washington in a peacefull march, and demand sharia law be applied to the US
I would like Constitutional rights to be protected because that protects us all. Care to provide documentation of how many “illegal” aliens have received Free attorney counsel during a criminal trial? Or, documentation of how many “illegal” immigrants have been deported for voting.I thought you wanted equal protection under the law for everyone? But free counsel is provided, many illegals do vote because they have false ID,
Care to show what Supreme Court ruling supports your claim? I’ve already made references, that you choose to ignore, showing how even “illegal” immigrants have Constitutional rights.It is law and privilages for US citizens only. No, it does not give them that right. To deny them the “right” to march and protest the government is upholding the law. You have it backward.
All Amendments must be consistent with the Constitution itself. How do you think that proposed Amendments can be judged UNCONSTITUTIONAL by the Supreme Court?What do you think amendment means?
Not the 14th Amendment.What does?
To do that we need laws that work and that are enforceable. According to you there are 20+ million people here that proves our laws don’t work and no expert seems to think that one, it would be a good idea to deport them and two, that it is even possible to do so.We don’t need immigration reform. We need border security and enforcement of current law.
More baloney! The demonstrations are rights protected by our Constitution. Fortunately, we have a Supreme Court that protects those rights.We need Mexican and other foreign nationals to obey US law. If Mexican nationals want to “petition” the US government they should do so through the Mexican Government from Mexico. To do otherwise is anarchy
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mary_bobo
Guest
True. And they don’t work in this case because our politicians of both parties do not want to offend potential voters.“We already have 13 million.”
If we legalize them we won’t any.
We did that under Reagan–granted amnesty to all the illegals here. It did not work.
“Our hospitals are stretched, our schools are stretched. I just don’t understand why they can’t see that.”
That is actually a State problem. The Federal government should and can reimburse the states.
Indeed, schools are the venue of the states, but they cannot continue serving as many people as some expect them to do. It makes for bigger classes and less attention to the US students. Do you think that is fair?
Because “LEGALLY” is a hollow claim. There is no difference between the reasons previous immigrants came and the reasons they come today, work. And, for most of our ancestors they weren’t subjected to arbitrary policies. And, we need these people as much as they need us.
Perhaps you don’t mind breaking the law. I was always taught to obey laws. We do need people however at what point do you think our need is complete?
“Whatever happened to laws?”
What usually happens to laws that don’t work, they get changed or are unenforced.
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Ituyu
Guest
Oh please!No, it’s not what I said.
If the parent’s are deported, doesn’t that prove that they don’t have any special protection?Does having a US citizen child afford the parents any special protections. What if the parents are deported?
The law does not apply to the parents so how can it be a good idea?I asked if you thought it was a good idea for it to be so.
We’re talking about Immigration Reform. That will determine how we will deal with those currently here “illegally” but have otherwise been law abiding. It will also determine our policies on new admissions. However, “Guest workers” are only a group of “Temporary Residents”. There is a group of “Temporary Residents” that can apply to become “Permanent Residents”. Permanent Residents can apply for Citizenship but it is not required of them.The laws work well. You don’t like the law. Are you talking about immigration to become a citizen, or guest workers who do not?
IRCA of 1986 worked for those that qualified under the Act but it left millions of people in limbo. Thus, it didn’t resolve the issue of “illegal” immigrants. It didn’t resolve the issue of admission policies and it didn’t resolve the issue of how best to meet our labor needs.This was done in 1986. It was a bad idea then, and is a bad idea now. Do you dismiss the dangers of the current world with respect to terrorism and those who wish to do the US harm?
Not at all.Doublespeak.
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Ituyu
Guest
quote=Verisimilitude;2217584]Existing law already accomdates that condition. What is wrong with following it?
You’re the one that suggested that everyone should be citizens. I didn’t agree wtih that.
I hope you notice that you make allegations of things I’ve never said or suggested.
You’re the one that suggested that everyone should be citizens. I didn’t agree wtih that.
Our current law doesn’t and can’t work that is why it needs to be changed so that we bring people out of the shadows.IF you don’t like the current law, flooding American cities with millions of unlawfull people is not the way to change it.
I hope you notice that you make allegations of things I’ve never said or suggested.
We don’t trust people which is why we put them through the process. And, a citizenship oath is way ahead of the issue for most of these people.We have to trust people, which is why we ask them to be of good moral character.
I do understand what the Supreme Court has held which is why I can judge your statement to be yet ANOTHER concoction of yours.If you would understand that Mexican et.al. nationals illegally in the US do not have US Constitutional Rights you would see why it is deemed unruly.
I’m concerned about removing people from the border that real criminals can use to make their capture more difficult so that we have a better chance of capturing real criminals.If Hitler snuck accross the southern border in 1942, you think he should be allowed to protest the government just becasue he got into the US?
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Ituyu
Guest
Again, we know that the vast majority are not. We know that none of the terrorist activities thus far have been connected with people that come here to work and support a family and who need to be here as much as we need them to be here.How do you know they are not?
We don’t even know that our own natural born citizens are all of good intent and good will but we don’t punish all Americans for the wrongdoing of a few. Or, is that what you are suggesting?How do you know all those people who come through the borders, specifrically the southern border are all of good intent and good will?
Do only Canadians cross our Canadian border? We know that our northern border is much more porous and allows for a greater number of people with criminal intent to cross that border undetected. We know that all the 9/11 terrorists came here through legal means. And, we also know that more needed workers cross our southern “illegally” that could just as easily have come here “legally” had we had the good sense to allow it.Do only Mexican nationals cross illegally into the US through the Mexican border?
We don’t protect ourselves by impeding needed workers.We won’t protect it if we don’t patrol, enforce, and stop illegals crossing.
We’ve been through this many times already. OUR LAWS DON"T WORK, WE WOULDN’T RESOLVE THE TERRORIST THREAT BY PUNISHING INNOCENT WORKERS and IT IS NOT IN OUR BEST INTEREST TO REMOVE 20+ MILLION EVEN IF WE COULD.A better way would be to abide by and enforce the current law.
Courts don’t make laws.If you want to add to or amend current law- do so in the courts,
First I don’t know how one determines an “illegal” from a citizen in that demonstration. By their skin color? Because they said something in Spanish? THE LAPD certainly couldn’t. But all that is irrelevant because as noted several times already the Supreme Court has declared that the First Amendment, for example, applies to all PERSONS within our borders and the “Illegal” are persons. It says nothing about only citizens have exclusive rights under the First Amendment.not by illegal assembly by non-citizens that dirutpt citizens peace and posterity.
Repeating your mantra, THANK GOD, does not make it true.No matter how you spin the law to your favor because yo think it should be that way, it does not apply to non-citizens.
It’s interesting that you would argue something that you’ve never brought up before but I’ve already agreed that the “illegal” are not afforded the same rights as citizens. But, it’s already been stipulated that although they have Constitutional rights they are not afforded the right to vote, to become President or the right to bear arms. However, The Freedom of Speech has been fully examined by the Supreme Court and it has been deemed that they do in fact have the right to demonstrate peacefully.If they have the right to assemble they have the right to bear arms- non-citizens illegally in the US do not have those rights.
We’ve gone round and round this issue and it appears that your position is supported in most part by “opinion” that is not supported by facts. You make up “wild” scenarios and try to make a case with that. You hide behind arbitrary laws and measures that haven’t, don’t and cannot work. But, you will fight against laws that are intended to address the issues and it appears unlikely that you will respect those if passed. And, most importantly you are willing to ignore the resounding support of economists, the Supreme Court, social scientists in favor of biased anti-immigrant special interest political spin.
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Ituyu
Guest
Actually that is a very INACCURATE statement. The Immigration and Reform Act of 1986 was called IRCA of 1986 NOT amnesty. It’s politicians and the media that called it Amnesty. The qualifications were way to narrow to address the “illegal” population and the Supply and Demand for more workers.We did that under Reagan–granted amnesty to all the illegals here. It did not work.
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**Indeed, schools are the venue of the states, but they cannot continue serving as many people as some expect them to do. It makes for bigger classes and less attention to the US students. Do you think that is fair?
Schools are paid for in California through property taxes and anybody who rents or owns property pays property taxes. Thus the “illegal” are already paying their fair share and the Federal Government should do its part.
Laws are supposed to serve the “common good” and they should also follow the Rule of Law, our arbitrary immigration policies to deny the entry of sufficient legal workers to meet our needs failed both tests. Thus the law is unjust and “unjust” laws should be changed.Perhaps you don’t mind breaking the law. I was always taught to obey laws. We do need people however at what point do you think our need is complete
.NO! They don’t work because politicians don’t have control of the natural phenomenon of Supply and Demand. They’re not enforced because it’s not possible to eliminate millions of workers without serious harm to our economy and to fail to supply the economy with the needed labor would also harm us more than whatever good that could be gained by such actions.True. And they don’t work in this case because our politicians of both parties do not want to
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mary_bobo
Guest
I do not agree. It has yet to be proven to me that we need 13 million workers above and beyond what was already here. Our economy is harmed more by having many more people in the system than pay taxes. Guess we disagree.Actually that is a very INACCURATE statement. The Immigration and Reform Act of 1986 was called IRCA of 1986 NOT amnesty. It’s politicians and the media that called it Amnesty. The qualifications were way to narrow to address the “illegal” population and the Supply and Demand for more workers.
And you are telling me that we need more workers than we already have now?
Schools are paid for in California through property taxes and anybody who rents or owns property pays property taxes. Thus the “illegal” are already paying their fair share and the Federal Government should do its part.
I dare say that is how most schools are financed. It it the property owners that pay these taxes. Are you telling me that renters pay property tax?
**
Laws are supposed to serve the “common good” and they should also follow the Rule of Law, our arbitrary immigration policies to deny the entry of sufficient legal workers to meet our needs failed both tests. Thus the law is unjust and “unjust” laws should be changed.
Fine. I’ll wait to see if it happens.
.NO! They don’t work because politicians don’t have control of the natural phenomenon of Supply and Demand. They’re not enforced because it’s not possible to eliminate millions of workers without serious harm to our economy and to fail to supply the economy with the needed labor would also harm us more than whatever good that could be gained by such actions.
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meeshy
Guest
YinYangMom,
If you did not read the word “illegal” on the Bishops’ website, you did not read well enough. Usually they use the term “those in an unauthorized status.”
They also say that they do not condone “unlawful entry” into our country.
Their position is that “The existing immigration system has resulted in a growing number of persons in this country in an unauthorized capacity, living in the shadows…”
If they’re not talking about illegals, who are they talking about?
The whole system is broken. Obviously that’s why we have illegals. That’s what all the rallies and marches are about: illegals. That’s what all the debates are about: illegals.
I suggest you read and re-read this portion of the Bishops’ website:
justiceforimmigrants.org/faq_cath_position.html
Especially the end, where they propose earned legalization for all illegals.
Peace,
Meeshy
If you did not read the word “illegal” on the Bishops’ website, you did not read well enough. Usually they use the term “those in an unauthorized status.”
They also say that they do not condone “unlawful entry” into our country.
Their position is that “The existing immigration system has resulted in a growing number of persons in this country in an unauthorized capacity, living in the shadows…”
If they’re not talking about illegals, who are they talking about?
The whole system is broken. Obviously that’s why we have illegals. That’s what all the rallies and marches are about: illegals. That’s what all the debates are about: illegals.
I suggest you read and re-read this portion of the Bishops’ website:
justiceforimmigrants.org/faq_cath_position.html
Especially the end, where they propose earned legalization for all illegals.
Peace,
Meeshy
V
Verisimilitude
Guest
A person who steals is not a thief, but hungry in the image of God?Because there is no such thing as an “illegal” person. We are all made in God’s image.
Islam says we are all Muslim to include Moses and Jesus. As with most of the things you say, like Mohammed, just saying it does not make it true.
Once again, no, illegal immigrants- ie: non US citizens- foreign nationals illegally in the US- The 1st Amendment (Constitution) does not apply to them and they are not afforded those rights and priveldges or responsibilities. Your cited law did not say that. No law says that. It is not the law. It was not intended to be as such.
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meeshy
Guest
Regarding property taxes: anybody who owns a car and has it registered legally also pays property taxes, even illegals.
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Verisimilitude
Guest
Who broke it?The whole system is broken. Obviously that’s why we have illegals. That’s what all the rallies and marches are about: illegals. That’s what all the debates are about: illegals.
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meeshy
Guest
Regarding our constitution:
I have been to court as a translator for several hispanic illegals, in matters of traffic violations and other misdemeanors.
They are definitely given full rights under the law: they are read their rights by the police, they are asked if they understand their rights by the judge, they are given the right to a trial by jury, and they are never asked if they are citizens or not.
Maybe I just live in an especially tolerant area, but I highly doubt it.
This is how our constitution functions, and it usually functions well.
If you’re in this country, you’ve got rights.
Peace,
Meeshy
I have been to court as a translator for several hispanic illegals, in matters of traffic violations and other misdemeanors.
They are definitely given full rights under the law: they are read their rights by the police, they are asked if they understand their rights by the judge, they are given the right to a trial by jury, and they are never asked if they are citizens or not.
Maybe I just live in an especially tolerant area, but I highly doubt it.
This is how our constitution functions, and it usually functions well.
If you’re in this country, you’ve got rights.
Peace,
Meeshy
V
Verisimilitude
Guest
They don’t register it legally because they are illegal, Same with insurance most don’t bother with it becasue they are illegal. When they get stopped by the police and give false ID, they get new false ID with a new false name and address becasue they are illegal.Regarding property taxes: anybody who owns a car and has it registered legally also pays property taxes, even illegals.
Where does the tax bill get sent to- the illegals address that is as false as the name on the ID?
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meeshy
Guest
If I answer your question on who broke the system, Verisimilitude, another debate will arise from my answer, and I don’t wish to engage in any more debates.
Regardless of when, why, how, and by whom, it’s broken. It needs to be fixed and the Bishops have a good proposal for fixing it.
You know, God sometimes puts people in our paths to teach us something. Maybe He put so many illegals in our country to force us to open our eyes. We can be a truly loving, giving, accepting Christian nation. Maybe He wants us to trust Him a little more and open our doors to anyone who wants to come here.
If we want to be the model of world peace and “morality,” we need to start at home. We have to trust God, do away with our fears, and fix what is broken.
This is what the Bishops are saying to us. I, for one, intend to listen.
The Bishops are our shepherds, chosen by Christ. They are fully capable of leading us, on any issue that presents itself, especially when they lead us as a group, which they are doing now in the issue of immigration reform.
Peace,
Meeshy
Regardless of when, why, how, and by whom, it’s broken. It needs to be fixed and the Bishops have a good proposal for fixing it.
You know, God sometimes puts people in our paths to teach us something. Maybe He put so many illegals in our country to force us to open our eyes. We can be a truly loving, giving, accepting Christian nation. Maybe He wants us to trust Him a little more and open our doors to anyone who wants to come here.
If we want to be the model of world peace and “morality,” we need to start at home. We have to trust God, do away with our fears, and fix what is broken.
This is what the Bishops are saying to us. I, for one, intend to listen.
The Bishops are our shepherds, chosen by Christ. They are fully capable of leading us, on any issue that presents itself, especially when they lead us as a group, which they are doing now in the issue of immigration reform.
Peace,
Meeshy
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meeshy
Guest
Verisimilitude, do you personally know any illegal immigrants? I do. I’d say I know 50 or more. All hispanics.
I will tell you that the majority of those I know do indeed have car insurance, have indeed paid their property tax, and do indeed have legal registration.
In some states they can get a driver’s license; in some states they cannot.
Don’t make generalizations about people. That’s unfair and untrue.
Peace,
Meeshy
I will tell you that the majority of those I know do indeed have car insurance, have indeed paid their property tax, and do indeed have legal registration.
In some states they can get a driver’s license; in some states they cannot.
Don’t make generalizations about people. That’s unfair and untrue.
Peace,
Meeshy
M
meeshy
Guest
For those who are still unclear on the Bishops’ position, this quote from the USCCB website, not the Justice for Immigrants website:
“Write, call or visit your Congressional representatives and urge them to support a legalization program for undocumented immigrants.”
I don’t see how this could possibly be any clearer.
Here is the webpage: usccb.org/mrs/legal.shtml
The quote is at the very end of the page.
Peace,
Meeshy
“Write, call or visit your Congressional representatives and urge them to support a legalization program for undocumented immigrants.”
I don’t see how this could possibly be any clearer.
Here is the webpage: usccb.org/mrs/legal.shtml
The quote is at the very end of the page.
Peace,
Meeshy
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