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mary_bobo
Guest
Maybe that is true where you are. It has not been that way in any of the states I have lived in. You pay a registration fee and a renewal fee. Most folks I know would not consider that property tax.
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Amolibri
Guest
Bravo!!! This is precisely what many of the posters in this thread have ignored. If all the conditions such as exploitation of workers by employers wanting cheap labor didn’t exist in such huge numbers, we wouldn’t be dealing with this level of migration from poor countries.
Let’s get to the root of the problem instead of yelling “round 'em up and get 'em out”. Historically, the US has not exactly helped by propping up dictators who also exploit the poor.
Let’s get to the root of the problem instead of yelling “round 'em up and get 'em out”. Historically, the US has not exactly helped by propping up dictators who also exploit the poor.
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mary_bobo
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And they should be given the same rights as anyone here who breaks the law.
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Verisimilitude
Guest
Sure, I know about 10 that live in dilapatdated trailers on a sod farm near my house. They wave, smile and work everyday. I see them drive and play with their dog and talk with them occasionally.
I also manage construction projects where the sub-contractors hire mainly illegals so they can low-bid the job. Federal Government funded projects require proof of citizenship for all workers and fair wage rates because it is the law, but it isn’t enforced on most private or even state construction projects. I know company owners and tradesmen who have gone out of business/out of work because they tried to abide by the law and demand a fair wage, but it is very difficult to compete with the unscrupulous employer/employee.
Like those that live near my house, because I asked, they use false ID that shows an address not where they are (because it has no address), and a name not their own. Just like the illegal who wrecked into my car 3 years ago. He got back in his car and ran after I got out my my vehicle. I chased far enough to get his plate number and gave it to the police, after he raced away without regard to anyone else on the road- running two red lights and a stop sign. The police called me a few days later and admitted their was nothing they could do since the address and name were fake and led to a wrong address.
Not legally in any state. To get a liscense they need to be a legal resident.
I know more legal immigrants because I don’t generally hang around illegal activity. The legal immigrants I know think the current proposal by the President is bad, and I agree. They also think the illegal marches were a shamefull display of hubris and disregard for the law.
What is unfair is lowering the bar and modifying society for legal residents and citizens to accomodate those here illegally to make them feel better about their illegality. What is untrue is extending rights and priviledges to them that are not warranted.
I’m sorry you don’t like that millions of foreign nationals, people, in the US illegally are not part of “We the people of the United States…” and all the rights, privledges and responsibilities afforded to legal residents and US citizens as identified in the US Constituion, but they are not. I’m sorry you feel overwhelming compassion for poverty stricken Mexicans who refuse to demand from their own government what you are willing to give them for free.
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meeshy
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Many states do require actual property tax to be paid before registration of a motor vehicle. I found more than 10 states who do, by only searching for 5 minutes on the internet. I’m sure someone could find the whole list if they cared to.
On the subject of American employers hiring illegal workers: a guest worker program could fix a lot of that. The Bishops advocate such a program.
On the subject of American employers or employees not paying taxes: this is an issue for the IRS, it’s not really an immigration issue.
There’s not really much to debate here. The Bishops have made their position clear on illegal immigration. It amazes me that so many people feel they know better than the entire USCCB.
I will always submit to my bishop and to the USCCB, and I thank God that He has given us such men to guide us.
Peace,
Meeshy
On the subject of American employers hiring illegal workers: a guest worker program could fix a lot of that. The Bishops advocate such a program.
On the subject of American employers or employees not paying taxes: this is an issue for the IRS, it’s not really an immigration issue.
There’s not really much to debate here. The Bishops have made their position clear on illegal immigration. It amazes me that so many people feel they know better than the entire USCCB.
I will always submit to my bishop and to the USCCB, and I thank God that He has given us such men to guide us.
Peace,
Meeshy
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CCM08
Guest
The problem with all this guest worker and amnesty junk is simply that it doesn’t solve a single problem. The Mexican people need to deal with the corruption in their government and bring about the labor and economic reforms to develop their country. Europe and the US/Canada went through these problems during the early industrial period, people made it through the hard times and worked to bring about change. It didn’t happen overnight but in the end they achieved their objectives. Mexicans fleeing Mexico doesn’t solve any problem that country faces, creates new problems here, and offers absolutely no long term solutions. As much as the US may have there is no country on the face of the earth that doesn’t have limited resources. Even if every illegal was allowed to stay and granted full citizenship tomorrow it wouldn’t do anything to solve Mexico and South America’s economic and social problems.
Any immigration reform or guest work program absolutely must come on the insistance that reforms begin NOW in Mexico and South America.
Any immigration reform or guest work program absolutely must come on the insistance that reforms begin NOW in Mexico and South America.
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Ituyu
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A person who steals is not a thief, but hungry in the image of God?
Your going to have to explain that logic.
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Ituyu
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YES!
YES!!
“[E]very empirical study of illegals’ economic impact demonstrates … ……. . . .: undocumenteds actually contribute more to public coffers in taxes than they cost in social services.”
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=881584
Unless we give in go distortions, exaggerations and political hype, Immigration Reform Will happen.
“Undocumented immigrants, like all U.S. citizens and residents, are required to pay taxes. Despite the historic and strong American opposition to taxation without representation, undocumented immigrants (except in rare and unusual cases) have not enjoyed the right to vote on any local, state or federal tax or other matter for almost eighty years. Nevertheless, each year undocumented immigrants add billions of dollars in sales, excise, property, income and payroll taxes, including Social Security, Medicare and unemployment taxes, to federal, state and local coffers. Hundreds of thousands of undocumented immigrants go out of their way to file annual federal and state income tax returns.”
Debunking the Myth: Immigrants and taxes-what they pay, what they get in return.
It's "common knowledge" in anti-immigration circles that immigrants, particularly the undocumented, don't pay taxes nearly equal to the gove...
migramatters.blogspot.com
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YinYangMom
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I appreciate the link, thanks.
So here’s the problem I see:
“The Catholic Bishops do not condone unlawful entry or circumventions of our nation’s immigration laws.”
And yet, the Catholic church is joining the New Sanctuary Movement to protect illegal immigrants from being deported.
I get that the bishops and their ‘plan’ is directed toward helping to resolve the plight of people seeking a life here in the states. I am very, very disappointed that this organization they founded does not address the real problem - and that is of the governments who squander resources and the businesses who hire these illegals.
“Our nation’s economy demands foreign labor, yet there are insufficient visas to meet this demand.”
Our nation’s economy doesn’t demand foreign labor. It demands cheap labor. Big difference. The way to get it is to deal in the illegal immigration racket. We have plenty of citizens willing and able to do the jobs the illegals are hired to do, but not at the wages the businesses pay to exploit the illegal immigrants. I’m disappointed the bishops conveniently leave the real issue out of their statement.
Look to Rome and our pope who just addressed Brazil and Mexico, calling a spade a spade and holding the governments there responsible for the ills facing their people. He tells the faithful to remain true in the face of such injustices - to resist the temptation to follow in that path. And here in the states the bishops themselves have sided with the very people who have created this problem by giving in to the pressures to feed the greed of the businesses who exploit the people the bishops are called to shepherd.
As for their proposition:
“*The Bishops’ earned legalization proposal provides a window of opportunity for undocumented immigrants who are already living in our communities and contributing to our nation to come forward, pay a fine and application fee, go through rigorous criminal background checks and security screenings, demonstrate that they have paid taxes and are learning English, and obtain a visa that could lead to permanent residency, over time. *”
It’s not really for all illegals as you claim. How many of them really can meet the rigorous criminal background check, demonstrate they’ve paid taxes, or are learning english? Will the bishops stand behind their proposal and still allow the thousands or so to still be deported or will they give them sanctuary?
Besides, here’s the thing that gets me about that proposal:
“criminal background check”…HELLO! The fact they are here, have been here, have assumed false identities to work here is a felony. How can the Catholic Church, who is the defender of Truth turn a blind eye to the obvious?
I’m grateful the USCCB does not carry infallibility with it because this is a really good example of when Catholics should look closely at what an arm of the Church teaches before following their lead.
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Ituyu
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Our government makes more money from them than is spent on them. Businesses need workers. Without them our economy could not have grown at acceptable levels.
“Our nation’s economy demands foreign labor, yet there are insufficient visas to meet this demand.”
Foreign labor and cheap labor are essentially the same thing.
Untrue, our “unemployment rate” has consistently been low and the increase in “illegal” labor has not had a negative (name removed by moderator)act on unemployment. People that say that we have sufficient labor rely on information regarding small sectors of labor. We would not have sufficient labor to run our economy if we did not have the 12+ million workers.
All the applicants that were processed through Catholic Charities met all the requirements.
Though there are currently millions of taxpayers who use TIN numbers to pay taxes a legalization process would require them to file for the prior ten years if they have not already done so.
The English requirement is met at the time they are interviewed for Citizenship which is different from when they get legal quthorization to work.
The Church acknowledges that it is in our best interest if serious criminals are deported.
Actually not. The crossing of our borders without inspection or overstaying their visas is not a felony in the criminal sense. It’s a violation of US Civil codes punishable by fines and/or deportation. But, a legalization procedure would make little sense if a “fine” is not agreed upon for those who have been productive and otherwise law abiding.
You mean Matthew25: 31-46 ?
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YinYangMom
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So following the links of the USCCB I checked out the Vatican site and looked up the Pontifical Council for the Pastoral Care of Migrants and Itinerant People
Clicked on Migrants and then The Church and Undocumented Migrants and Refugees, including those who are not Christians to see what the council’s position was.
There are 6 paragraphs under “Undocumented migrants”. Very well written, I must say, though I would expect as much. The church is most wise in her reflections.
The final paragraph pretty much is the reason I take pause with the USCCBs proposal (emphasis, mine):
“Of course, **it is necessary to help **asylum seekers and immigrants in an irregular situation find the appropriate, lawful solution to their case and acquire a legal status. In this regard, the amnesty that some States have offered, and in favour of which the Holy Father has spoken in the past, plays an important role. Some cases may need assistance so that they can turn to a third country for acceptance. Others would need support to be able to return safely to their home country. Whatever may be the best solution, Christian solidarity pushes us not to leave them alone in coping with the situation.”
How can the appropriate lawful solution be providing sanctuary for families who have a member being deported? Let the person who is illegally here be deported but take care of his/her family while they are away. Now, that, I can see as the proper response for the Catholic church and her members. At the same time, yes, continue to lobby for reform of the current immigration laws on the books, but so long as those laws are there, surely the Church must respect those laws.
Right before that final paragraph it is stated:
“Thus, even asylum-seekers and migrants in an illegal situation have the right to be provided with the necessary means of subsistence. It is a right that surpasses any positive law.”
Let the bishops establish a network of Catholics to tend to the ‘necessary means of subsistence’ for the family members who will be left behind when the law catches up with the felon. Let us provide money, food, clothing, health insurance, educational security for the US born children of these ‘migrants in an illegal situation’. As I suggested earlier, let the church gather lawyers to help these families plan for the future should the ‘dreaded day’ come for them and that way the member who has to go back home can do so with peace of mind. All this is in meeting with the directive in Mt 25: 35-37. Remember, Matthew said Jesus said “I was in prison and you came to me” He didn’t say, “You kept me from going to prison”.
Clicked on Migrants and then The Church and Undocumented Migrants and Refugees, including those who are not Christians to see what the council’s position was.
There are 6 paragraphs under “Undocumented migrants”. Very well written, I must say, though I would expect as much. The church is most wise in her reflections.
The final paragraph pretty much is the reason I take pause with the USCCBs proposal (emphasis, mine):
“Of course, **it is necessary to help **asylum seekers and immigrants in an irregular situation find the appropriate, lawful solution to their case and acquire a legal status. In this regard, the amnesty that some States have offered, and in favour of which the Holy Father has spoken in the past, plays an important role. Some cases may need assistance so that they can turn to a third country for acceptance. Others would need support to be able to return safely to their home country. Whatever may be the best solution, Christian solidarity pushes us not to leave them alone in coping with the situation.”
How can the appropriate lawful solution be providing sanctuary for families who have a member being deported? Let the person who is illegally here be deported but take care of his/her family while they are away. Now, that, I can see as the proper response for the Catholic church and her members. At the same time, yes, continue to lobby for reform of the current immigration laws on the books, but so long as those laws are there, surely the Church must respect those laws.
Right before that final paragraph it is stated:
“Thus, even asylum-seekers and migrants in an illegal situation have the right to be provided with the necessary means of subsistence. It is a right that surpasses any positive law.”
Let the bishops establish a network of Catholics to tend to the ‘necessary means of subsistence’ for the family members who will be left behind when the law catches up with the felon. Let us provide money, food, clothing, health insurance, educational security for the US born children of these ‘migrants in an illegal situation’. As I suggested earlier, let the church gather lawyers to help these families plan for the future should the ‘dreaded day’ come for them and that way the member who has to go back home can do so with peace of mind. All this is in meeting with the directive in Mt 25: 35-37. Remember, Matthew said Jesus said “I was in prison and you came to me” He didn’t say, “You kept me from going to prison”.
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Verisimilitude
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Why? You don’t explain your illogic to say no person is an illegal because we are all in God’s image. They are illegal because they break US law.Your going to have to explain that logic.
Ignored it, no. I dismissed it as junk.
Your source site is a hack. ratical.org/
Whoever wrote the “opinion” for the website is a hack. Let’s go to what you want to believe, but is not true.
77]
Follow that #77 link. READ IT. I surmise the hack changed Fourth to First. You should sue them for making you look foolish.
caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=494&invol=259
It has NOTHING to do with 1st Amendment rights with respect to illegals but speaks about how the 4th, 5th and 6th Amendments were applied to that specific case.
It does go on to say:
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YinYangMom
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There are other ways to reach the same goal without exploiting the human dignity of the needy.
They have become ‘essentially’ the same thing, but they are not. It is the undocumented foreign laborer whose labor is cheap, not foreign labor in and of itself.
If the wages were just, we’d have sufficient labor. We have a large pool of very intelligent executives who - if faced with the challenge to find a way to keep turning profits while paying decent wages - can and will be able to do so. It’s just that our government and our citizens have not forced them to face that challenge. Instead we enable them to take the easier path rather than the moral one.
Surely Catholic Charities has not processed all undocumented workers. I would imagine only those families who knew they met the requirements would have participated in any ‘processing’ by Catholic Charities. Those who know they cannot meet the requirements are still hiding.
I wonder how many undocumented workers could meet that requirement.
Well, you and I both know there are many foreign residents in our county who never learn english - documented or not. So, again, this would present a problem for a good number of undocumented immigrants. I suspect, however, that the test standards won’t be that high in order to facilitate the goal of the process - get more people through than turn away.
Well, a felony for a US citizen **is **a serious crime, that’s my point. If convicted of a felony one must always admit to that when seeking employment and I think you even lose the right to vote. Assuming a false identity is a felony.
Productive? How so? That must mean they were earning wages and paying into the tax system for a number of years. How did they get those earnings? Through false identities and that is the felony. These are the people who are marching. Families who have been here long enough to grow to the size of 4-5 children and who are at risk for one or more of the members of that family getting caught for their crime of falsifying records.
Yes. Our obligation is to tend to the needs of all people. To visit those who are in prison, not to keep them from going to prison.
When we encounter a criminal we are to treat them with dignity, yes. Now, keep in mind that goes for thieves, rapists, murderers, as well. The Church is saying we are not to judge the person, but to always treat them as we would Jesus.
Are we morally obliged to turn them in? I don’t know. If the law requires us to do so, then I would think we are. If there is no law ruling one way or the other, then it appears we are not morally obliged to turn them in. But if/when they are caught in their crime, then it is our obligation to continue to make sure the person is treated fairly and with dignity. Fairly, for a criminal, is a right to a fair trial and just punishment. If that includes being deported, then we take care of the family that member leaves behind and make sure the person who is sent away is treated decently en route. And, yes, that includes families of murderers, rapists, thieves and the lot, if we are to take Matthew’s passage to heart.
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meeshy
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The Catholic Church, I have found, always has the correct answer, on every issue. I am a convert, and during my conversion I spent many hours pondering the Church’s position on various issues, and rebelling against the Church’s position, and debating the Church’s position. In the end, the Church was always right.
Her logic, compassion, and intellectual capacity far exceeds anything on earth. Why? Because she is the Bride of Christ. And the Bishops are the shepherds appointed by Christ.
A person can disagree with the Bishops’ stance on an issue, of course. But it doesn’t mean the Bishops’ stance is lacking or inadequate in any way. More likely the person disagreeing has not fully researched or digested or understood the Bishops’ position.
As for me, I don’t have, and would never dare claim to have, more insight on an issue than the combined insight of the Bishops.
Peace,
Meeshy
Her logic, compassion, and intellectual capacity far exceeds anything on earth. Why? Because she is the Bride of Christ. And the Bishops are the shepherds appointed by Christ.
A person can disagree with the Bishops’ stance on an issue, of course. But it doesn’t mean the Bishops’ stance is lacking or inadequate in any way. More likely the person disagreeing has not fully researched or digested or understood the Bishops’ position.
As for me, I don’t have, and would never dare claim to have, more insight on an issue than the combined insight of the Bishops.
Peace,
Meeshy
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meeshy
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Using false ID is a misdemeanor, not a felony. Fake ID’s have been widely available and used in this country for at least 50 years. They are used by many types of people, especially underage American kids, not just by illegal aliens.
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meeshy
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We don’t know who all the marchers at these rallies are, and no one should make a sweeping statement that the marchers are those who are in fear of being deported, or those who use false identification, or those who do not pay taxes.
I would march at one of those rallies if I lived close enough, and I am a tax-paying American citizen.
I would march at one of those rallies if I lived close enough, and I am a tax-paying American citizen.
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Verisimilitude
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No one should suspend common sense either.
False ID being a misdemeanor is like being a little bit pregnant.
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YinYangMom
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Not according to the Social Security FAQ site:
Social Security Act: In December 1981, Congress passed a bill to amend the Omnibus Reconciliation Act of 1981 to restore minimum benefits under the Social Security Act. In addition, the Act made it a felony to
…willfully, knowingly, and with intent to deceive the Commissioner of Social Security as to his true identity (or the true identity of any other person) furnishes or causes to be furnished false information to the Commissioner of Social Security with respect to any information required by the Commissioner of Social Security in connection with the establishment and maintenance of the records provided for in section 405(c)(2) of this title.
Violators of this provision, Section 208(a)(6) of the Social Security Act, shall be guilty of a felony and upon conviction thereof shall be fined under title 18 or imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or both.
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YinYangMom
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I understand and respect your position. I agree that when it comes to these matters - on the whole - the Catholic church has the correct answers.
Even on the matter of immigration reform I agree and applaud the efforts the Church has taken to initiate change.
I do not agree with all the details of their suggested reform and I am not required to, either.
I am not being disrespectful or hard headed to question why there is an obvious absence of approach toward the business community which feeds the demand for illegal labor and financially supports the entire racket.
Nor is it disrespectful to question the morality of the Catholic church preparing to harbor criminals through the New Sanctuary Movement so that justice cannot be served, particularly since this is not what was meant by Matthew 25:31-46.
We would not be diligent Catholics if we failed to do our part to help the bishops lead us on the correct path. Of course, in the meantime, we support their efforts and do not speak out against them in a negative way. But we are entitled to some answers.
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