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Ituyu
Guest
I know, I know. But, some people do believe that the “illegal” are somehow taking something away without considering what we would be losing without them. That’s one of the problems that I have with the proposed $5k fine is that all the punishment is levied at the “illegal” and the rest us get a free ride. We forget that they were drawn here by our demand for their labor. Virtually every single one of us has benefited in some way from their labor. They’ve already had to live outside of society, live with all the scapegoating, accept cheaper pay and fewer services. The fine is simply not consistent with the idea of “fairness” or “justice”.
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Al_Masetti
Guest
Read the fine print of the bill.
What would be the status of, for example, gang members?
What would be the status of, for example, gang members?
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mary_bobo
Guest
It would be easier for sure. But just how many illegals do you think this country can absorb and pay for? And don’t tell me they pay taxes and pay their own way. That simply is not true.
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Verisimilitude
Guest
Any foreign national; individual or in the millions, in the US illegally has no US Constitutional Right to demand anything political from the US government. I think Miranda rights apply, but not the Bill of Rights. Human Rights like the UDHR apply wihout respect to nationality or individual. Any legal right extended to illegals is done so because the US authority is bound by them.
Don’t take it as a “I’m right, you’re wrong” thing. Take it as fact. Also, I think you assume I have some great ill will toward the illegal (Mexican in particular) currently in this country. I do not. I take no personal joy in these facts, and do not say them in boast. It is the law. They are not contrary to my faith, and they are not unjust. They are there to protect the nation which is justifiable.
There are people who know the illegal immigrant has no legal right to complain and take advantage of them. The people who do that need to be held accountable to US law, and the way to do that is to officially know who is here now. I’ll forgive the guilty employer the same I will forgive the illegal immigrant- after a just penance.
You and I agree, there should be no $5,000 fine. You and I do not agree, I think they should go back to their country or origin before they reapply to enter, you think they should just stay where they are and get citizenship. Mine is a reasonable request, yours is not.
When the economy stalls or worse, recession, and all the current boom jobs are gone, what then? What if the lawful draft were started again, will the current 20 million support it as all legal citizens must? Will the new citizens still do the jobs “Americans won’t do” for a low wage, or will we import new immigrants to do them, now that we have come to an agreement?
Will all the illegal immigrants that live in crowded unsafe houses and illegal residences come out to safer legitimate places? Will the illegal drug dealer and imported young prostitute stop their trade because they are now legal? Will the widespread use of false identification be eliminated?
Every otherwise honest illegal economic refugee in the US now should register voluntarily, and no longer hide in society and reclaim their personal dignity. Anyone failing to register should, when found by attrition- not by specific raids, should be deported.
A border wall/fence should not be built in most places, but something in the line of sentential watchtowers, manned by the National Guard to enforce a non-porous border actually exists along both northern and southern borders is in place.
Those illegal aliens formally registered, should be required to leave the US within 3 years to ensure there is no advantage to any other potential immigrant wanting to come here from around the world. There are special circumstances for any situation, but special is about 1% of the total illegal population. Fair is fair for all.
Caesar Chavez was against illegal workers, and his idealism is worth consideration. I am not a organized Union advocate but in this case I think there should be a Mexican Union formed that can work in concert with American industry/commerce to fill any potential labor need, overseen by the US government. This could be established during the 3-year period when illegal’s must return home. The faster they do the quicker we know what jobs are really needed. They might also get the idea for ending corruption in Mexico itself.
Giving amnesty to the millions of current illegal’s will solve nothing but give rise to anarchy. There is enough division in America. This Senate plan does not strengthen the USA, it weakens it very much. Not by the new citizens themselves, but by the new and current citizens who dismiss the law as irrelevant.
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Dee_Dee_King
Guest
ahhh, you spoken like a true communist–material equality for all will create a eutopia. no, they go back to mexico with their illegally immigrated families and get an education. the point is you make it worth there while to go back home.
no, if they recover, then you send them back. otherwise if they want to stay they should pay like i have to.
i agree when we’re talking about people who belong to the public. illegals have no right to free education. they should go through the legal process and become citizens if they want a tax funded education.
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Ituyu
Guest
Verisimilitude,
I can’t make sense out of much of what you say. But as far as the First Amendment goes, the marches are a living testimonial that they have the Freedom of Speech. How many were arrested for what they said? NONE.
The laws that kept these people from coming here “legally” did not protect us from terrorists rather it made good hard working people live in the shadows.
I don’t care how you feel about it; I don’t take our Constitutional rights for granted.
I do believe that the “illegal” should pay a fine because that is justifiable. Personally, I would be happy to admit those that qualify. 5K though is simply too severe and thus very unreasonable. To make them leave as part of the process to stay, well, is simply a stupid idea. I think it’s bullying more than anything else.
To punish employers is another bad idea because they’ll find a way to make us pay for it one way or another and really we did benefit from their labor as well so maybe we should all pay a fine.
Drug dealers and prostitutes are excludable. They do not qualify.
Allowing people to come out of the shadows serves a number of objectives that will make us more cohesive and better able to plan strategies for our future.
Anarchy is a system of chaos or no government. Immigration Reform is hardly anarchy.
I can’t make sense out of much of what you say. But as far as the First Amendment goes, the marches are a living testimonial that they have the Freedom of Speech. How many were arrested for what they said? NONE.
The laws that kept these people from coming here “legally” did not protect us from terrorists rather it made good hard working people live in the shadows.
I don’t care how you feel about it; I don’t take our Constitutional rights for granted.
I do believe that the “illegal” should pay a fine because that is justifiable. Personally, I would be happy to admit those that qualify. 5K though is simply too severe and thus very unreasonable. To make them leave as part of the process to stay, well, is simply a stupid idea. I think it’s bullying more than anything else.
To punish employers is another bad idea because they’ll find a way to make us pay for it one way or another and really we did benefit from their labor as well so maybe we should all pay a fine.
Drug dealers and prostitutes are excludable. They do not qualify.
Allowing people to come out of the shadows serves a number of objectives that will make us more cohesive and better able to plan strategies for our future.
Anarchy is a system of chaos or no government. Immigration Reform is hardly anarchy.
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Ituyu
Guest
Well, I would hope you would want to talk about the topic truthfully. The available credible evidence shows that they indeed pay more in taxes than the services they use.
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Ituyu
Guest
But if they live here they either rent or pay a mortgage. Either way they pay property taxes that pay for public schools. Aside from that, we educate them for the same reasons that we educate anyone in public schools.
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mary_bobo
Guest
40% of all workers in L.A. Countyare working for cash and not paying taxes. This is because they are predominantly illegal immigrants working without a green card…L.A. Times
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Verisimilitude
Guest
That has been obvious from the firs post. It is a testamonial that we have common sense and restraint and that we can tolerate even unlawful dissent. Because a million people were not arrested is a product of logistics, not proof of their legality.
Untrue. It is the unenforced laws that allowed overstayed visa’s and the lax attitude for the “good hard working people” that are here illegally to include the terrorists.
You do not know the Constitution or how the law works.
A fine for a poor man is like taking bread away from the hungry. That is a stupid idea. Your happiness is contrary to mine. I will be satisfied with both moral and social justice, and you can think what you like.
You advocate a preference to those already here over those who have not/could not/would not break existing law to be here. You are being a hypocrite in your call to “fairness”. The only way to be fair to all is for those here illegally to go back to their home country.
The low wages paid illegals will be raised by this amnesty and consumer costs will rise for all Americans. Inflation and recession are likely outcomes to the economy. To counter that people like you will call for more illegals who will work for less.
I would extend to them the same human rights as any person. Maybe they need and want help. Where is your compassion?
Answer the questions in my previous post. Your view of what cohesive is a false one.
You are not advocating immigration reform, you are advocating a dismissal of established law for chaos to accomodate human migration for ecconomic needs. That is anrachy.
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
Really is that true? Have you seen:
The grocery stores remove the sale tax from a purchase because the person was an illegal immigrant?
The gas stations reduce the cost of gas (removing the tax) because the person was an illegal immigrant?
See the average person pays 40% in taxes 22% in health care cost. Our silly present situation prevents these groups from simply lining up to do the same! Silly is us, we are stopping them from paying in full. That is why so many states are passing the legislation they pass to allow immigrates illegal or not to pay.
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
Based on what? I suggest it is not easier nor better. Eventually the border will be open it is inevitable. The world is round not flat, a voting citizen can select his government no King is needed, black people do not need a owner they can make it on their own, and the border will be open not closed. Fight each and any as much as you would like however the end is inevitable.
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meeshy
Guest
Definitely, definitely, definitely, on both points!
In my town, most new homes are constructed almost entirely by illegal hispanics. They are paid well (average $15 per hour), which is pretty consistant with wages for non-illegal labor.
People in this town have absolutely no qualms about buying these homes, realtors have no qualms about selling them, and the city government has no qualms about collecting the taxes on these homes.
YET–the same people who live in these homes, the same realtors who buy and sell these homes, the same government who collects the taxes on these homes, in many cases vocally oppose using illegal laborers for anything. Hypocritical or what?
Another laughable situation in my town: The town council tried to pass an ordinance barring employers from, and fining employers for, hiring illegal workers. Thank God the ordinance was shot down.
YET–the same city government who tried to pass this ordinance has a maintenance contract with a landscaping company who employs lots of illegal hispanics. I chuckle everytime I see them working in the park.
Regarding my taxes being used to pay for the medical care of others or to fund public assistance: Yes, yes, yes. It’s part of being a charitable person.
However, I definitely object to my taxes being used to fund wars. I definitely object to my taxes being used to fund birth-control clinics in foreign countries, under the guise of “helping the poor.” I definitely object to my taxes being used to build a stupid border fence and to pay for thousands of guards to enforce the border.
Peace,
Meeshy
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Ituyu
Guest
Even if that were true, you’re saying that a good number of the “illegal” do pay their taxes. Immigration Reform make that a requirement for all those seeking legalization. Seems like a good idea.
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seekerz
Guest
A commie! You had me laughing there; do people even use that word anymore?
Not quite on the topic we’re discussing, but relevant to your comment: do you know that one of the first things the Church used to do in evangelizing new peoples was to start free schools? Yup, right along with starting churches. So education for the masses is not a communist idea.
There’s nothing communist about educating people so they can find useful employment. I think many here are talking about sharing the tax burden and not giving anyone a free ride, so why not educate these children to enable them to contribute to society? Many of them are born here anyway.
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
Ah, but a fundamental of the free market is to eliminate barriers thus allowing the market to provide. A border by definition is a barrier, again we see those who preach the free market principles often chose not to support such.A commie! You had me laughing there; do people even use that word anymore?
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Ituyu
Guest
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meeshy
Guest
“A fine for a poor man is like taking bread away from the hungry.”
I agree with Ituyu, it’s taking bread from the hungry to ask illegals to go back to their home countries for any period of time before being granted a chance at re-entry.
As far as the $5000 fine, I’m not sure how I feel. As a U.S. citizen with a fairly decent job, I couldn’t personally come up with $5000 right now, for any reason.
I’m sure there are illegals who could access that kind of money, but the majority probably could not. Possibly a government loan could be instituted, with wages garnished bit by bit until the loan is paid off.
Peace,
Meeshy
I agree with Ituyu, it’s taking bread from the hungry to ask illegals to go back to their home countries for any period of time before being granted a chance at re-entry.
As far as the $5000 fine, I’m not sure how I feel. As a U.S. citizen with a fairly decent job, I couldn’t personally come up with $5000 right now, for any reason.
I’m sure there are illegals who could access that kind of money, but the majority probably could not. Possibly a government loan could be instituted, with wages garnished bit by bit until the loan is paid off.
Peace,
Meeshy
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Verisimilitude
Guest
You are stuck on the false premis illegals have First Amendment Rights of Free Speech under the US Constitution. Time and again you have been shown that is an incorrect assumption. The law is clear for even the most simple to comprehend. I have no idea if you will eventually get it.
Read this. I have no idea if you will understand it, but you should read it. It speaks about how our lax enforcement of existing laws allowed them to exploit our legal system, much like the illegals now do.
Find one that actually knows the law.
You don’t think jobs are being taken away from legal US residents and Citizens by the number of illegals here?
Yes, it is.
If a person is hired because they said they have a college degree, and then the employer finds they lied and do not have the degree- should they keep their job no matter how well they did it?
Amazing. I repeat.
Birds of a feather… Are your neighbors all illegal Mexicans out of work, or do you know any American citizens looking for a job? Are you saying the imported prostitute is not your neighbor?
You can’t even use willfull ignorance as an excuse.
Enforcement would fix the problem. You clearly advocate breaking the laws you do not personally agree with- anarchy. You imagine the US is doing some great injustice to Mexicans by limiting poor the number of poor people from immigrating, and thus you help break the law. Law that you do not respect or understand.
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