Immigration Rallies Planned Nationwide

[Al_Masetti]

Please note, that I am not engaging in any descriptive comments regarding the immigration bill or any ad hominem descriptions of those who are reviewing the details.

I am merely suggesting that some people who have reviewed the details, have suggested some of the aspects of the bill that are worthy of focusing on.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Please note, that I am not engaging in any descriptive comments regarding the immigration bill or any ad hominem descriptions of those who are reviewing the details.

I am merely suggesting that some people who have reviewed the details, have suggested some of the aspects of the bill that are worthy of focusing on.

Pointing out the bias of an organization is not a personal attack, it is pointing out that they have a bias. FAIRUS and CIS are both ardenly and proudly groups that oppose immigration.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Pointing out the bias of an organization is not a personal attack, it is pointing out that they have a bias. FAIRUS and CIS are both ardenly and proudly groups that oppose immigration.

To some folks in the 21st century, the word “bias” and the very use of the word “bias” constitutes or connotes or comes across as a prejorative expression or the use of a prejorative expression.

 

[YinYangMom]

I can certainly agree that a secular law was broken but I do not agree that it was a “sinful” transgression because there is nothing morally wrong or intrinsically evil about working an honest job that is offered and the law itself was arbitrary and unjust.

Reality is: the U.S. does not have open borders, as much as you would like to see that change, until it does, please try to keep the discussion based on what is, not what you’d like it to be.

Morally/socially correct or not, that is the bottom line.
This means that our nation has laws on the books to regulate the influx of immigrants into this country in an attempt to ensure our economy can handle the rate of the influx and that our security does not get compromised in the process.

Morally, knowingly and willingly lying or deceiving is a sin.
The CCC states that ends do not justify means.

Morally, employers who go out of their way to seek workers who are desperate enough to take wages under the table (less than minimum wage) and forfeit the benefits and protections to which they would be entitled are not offering ‘honest’ jobs. So lets stop the delusion right there. These are not ‘honest’ jobs the worker is seeking. They are simply seeking any means by which they could support themselves. The dishonest employer preys upon their desperation and then passes themselves off as ‘social do-gooders’. I include in that group the wealthy who hire gardeners, cooks, domestic workers and babysitters and pay them under the table. Even if they do put a roof over their heads, their motives are not morally or socially correct. They are not hiring these workers for social justice reasons, they are doing so out of greed, plain and simple.

Those who take the ‘dishonest’ jobs available do so because they know they do not have the legal documentation necessary to secure that to which they would be entitled under our nation’s labor laws otherwise: a set minimum wage, decent work hours, medical benefits, retirement benefits and the like.

Why do they not have the legal documentation necessary? Because at some point they chose to pay thousands of dollars to coyotes to risk bypassing our nation’s immigration process to enter this country illegally.

Morally a person who choses to live a lie commits sin to do so. If they know it is against the law of the land and they choose to go against it anyway then they are making a conscious decision to lie and deceive our nation, their future employer, their children’s future educators, their family’s health providers and on down the line. If they purchase false social security identifications they also steal. They must perpetuate the lie in order to sustain themselves. Leviticus 19:11 You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another.

 

[mary_bobo]

Reality is: the U.S. does not have open borders, as much as you would like to see that change, until it does, please try to keep the discussion based on what is, not what you’d like it to be.

Morally/socially correct or not, that is the bottom line.
This means that our nation has laws on the books to regulate the influx of immigrants into this country in an attempt to ensure our economy can handle the rate of the influx and that our security does not get compromised in the process.

Morally, knowingly and willingly lying or deceiving is a sin.
The CCC states that ends do not justify means.

Morally, employers who go out of their way to seek workers who are desperate enough to take wages under the table (less than minimum wage) and forfeit the benefits and protections to which they would be entitled are not offering ‘honest’ jobs. So lets stop the delusion right there. These are not ‘honest’ jobs the worker is seeking. They are simply seeking any means by which they could support themselves. The dishonest employer preys upon their desperation and then passes themselves off as ‘social do-gooders’. I include in that group the wealthy who hire gardeners, cooks, domestic workers and babysitters and pay them under the table. Even if they do put a roof over their heads, their motives are not morally or socially correct. They are not hiring these workers for social justice reasons, they are doing so out of greed, plain and simple.

Those who take the ‘dishonest’ jobs available do so because they know they do not have the legal documentation necessary to secure that to which they would be entitled under our nation’s labor laws otherwise: a set minimum wage, decent work hours, medical benefits, retirement benefits and the like.

Why do they not have the legal documentation necessary? Because at some point they chose to pay thousands of dollars to coyotes to risk bypassing our nation’s immigration process to enter this country illegally.

Morally a person who choses to live a lie commits sin to do so. If they know it is against the law of the land and they choose to go against it anyway then they are making a conscious decision to lie and deceive our nation, their future employer, their children’s future educators, their family’s health providers and on down the line. If they purchase false social security identifications they also steal. They must perpetuate the lie in order to sustain themselves. Leviticus 19:11 You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another.

Bravo!! Just wish I could be as articulate.

 

[YinYangMom]

Those that came here “illegally” were complying with their God given instinct of self-preservation and responsibility to provide for their dependents.

The Church’s teaching on corporal works of mercy and social justice come to mind, as well as her teachings on Natural Family Planning.

Self-preservation means taking care of matters at home first and foremost, not running away from social and moral obligations to those with whom we live. Those who leave the country to take care of just themselves abandon their countrymen for futher neglect and abuse. I have a hard time believing this is what God would inspire them to do.

People seem to forget that those in power in Mexico are most likely Catholic. I don’t understand why there’s a cry in our country to be more ‘Catholic’ about the people in other countries but no cry for those Catholics in those countries to be more Catholic with regard to social justice.

Why is the U.S. expected to take the brunt of everything?

People say because we can, but you know what? Our economy and our security can’t. Not in this day and age. The U.S. is a target for terrorism and will be for many years to come. That golden era for opening our arms to every human in need is closed to us for a while. That’s just the way it is.

The offense was not a criminal one but a civil “violation” that is punishable by fine or deportation.

For those who cross over and work ‘under the table’ only, not using false identification in order to earn a wage (no false drivers license, no false social security card, no false passport) then yes, theirs is a civil violation.

Those who use false identifications cross over to the criminal side.

Either way, once they are caught, it is justice that they would be fined and/or deported, as you noted.

So why is there this huge movement to stop justice from being served? It’s only because of that huge number.

We messed up plain and simple. Our government looked the other way at all the employers feeding the demand for undocumented labor for so long that the undocumented work force grew to such a size that somebody (or some organization) figured out how to unite them to publicly not only cry out for legal change in our system for future immigrants, but to stop justice from being served on themselves.

We already have agreed that we can’t deport 12+ people and we wouldn’t even if we could.

Sure we can.
We choose not to for all sorts of reasons.
Our nation will change because of all of this.
For the better? I hope.
For the worse? I fear.
Only time will tell.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

To some folks in the 21st century, the word “bias” and the very use of the word “bias” constitutes or connotes or comes across as a prejorative expression or the use of a prejorative expression.

But that’s not what the word means. Bias simply means that you have a predeliction to favor one side of an argument or another. As Catholics, I would hope that we would have certain biases with regards to moral issues.

 

[Ituyu]

Reality is: the U.S. does not have open borders, as much as you would like to see that change, until it does, please try to keep the discussion based on what is

, not what you’d like it to be.

Either you don’t understand or choose to mis characterize what has been said throughout these threads. I don’t believe that I’ve ever seen anyone support “open borders”.

Morally/socially correct or not, that is the bottom line.
This means that our nation has laws on the books to regulate the influx of immigrants into this country in an attempt to ensure our economy can handle the rate of the influx and that our security does not get compromised in the process.

 

[Ituyu]

.

Self-preservation means taking care of matters at home first and foremost, not running away from social and moral obligations to those with whom we live. Those who leave the country to take care of just themselves abandon their countrymen for futher neglect and abuse. I have a hard time believing this is what God would inspire them to do.

 

[YinYangMom]

I don’t believe that I’ve ever seen anyone support “open borders”.

My apologies, I must have confused you with someone from the New Sanctuary Movement thread.

Our policy is arbitrary and denied people the opportunity to come legally when there were jobs to fill…That was a greater moral wrong.

You and I are in agreement that our government looking the other way all those years was a greater moral wrong. This is why the movement to change our policies is warranted. But until the legal changes take hold justice still calls for the fines/deportations of any undocumented workers caught, not amnesty. I’d be much happier if the fines and criminal charges would be filed against the darn employers as well! Justice would then be filled on all parties. For too long we’ve served justice on the worker but not on the employer. I have little faith that even this new reform movement will result in any real action against the greater evil here - greed on the part of those who break moral and social laws to up their bottom line.

Except that when man’s law violates God’s law we are called not only to oppose such laws but to disobey them…

And Cardinal Mahony is correct, should our laws require us to turn in the worker to face deportation but not require us to turn in the employers these workers are serving, then we are not morally obliged to follow that law because it harms other people, and not just the ‘right’ people.

But our immigration laws are not in violation of God’s laws. We have many programs set up to allow regulated influxes of immigrants into our country to study, to work, to live. We even have laws to ensure those immigrants do not get abused. When an undocumented worker chooses to ignore those laws then that person is breaking God’s law for his own personal gain, not to protect other innocent people from harm. I think your argument would carry more weight if our nation had closed border policies in force - where no immigration were allowed at all.

The vast majority of employers found themselves with nobody to fill open positions.

Hogwash! A vast majority could not find anyone to fill open positions because they refused to pay decent wages for the work to be done or provide safe working conditions. It’s all about money. If they pay the wages to secure a work force they would have to sell a lot more of their product in order to break even, let alone make a profit. But since foreign countries do not have fair labor laws like we do they are able to produce the more product than our companies and turn a good profit. We claim we must give up the moral high ground of taking care of our workers in order to be in business at all. How is that honoring God’s laws?

…to say that their “intent” was to work for less than minimum wage and work under poor working conditions blames the victim not the cause. The responsibility to provide for their families, and our choice to deny them entry without good cause made them exploitable.

Their intent, I said, was to work anywhere they could to sustain the family. They choose to take the poor wage/working condition jobs because they chose to enter the country illegally. They know they did something wrong by coming here that way. They know it, you know it, and so does the law when the law finally catches up with them.

We didn’t deny them entry without good cause. The cause is regulating the rate by which immigrants assimilate into our culture. We have to ensure there is economic stability to sustain the influx. They just didn’t want to wait in line.

We didn’t make them exploitable. They make themselves exploitable when they enter the country illegal - without the protections of our laws. It’s a price they are willing to pay, but in the long run it hurts us, them, and all those immigrants who came here legally.

They should have been given the opportunity to get here legally but we closed that door, again you blame the victim of our policies.

The opportunities have not been closed. Our laws are the same as they’ve been for all the other legal immigrants in the system today. It’s just that more people want to come over here in a given year than we can sustain. They don’t care what an influx of labor will do to those of us who are struggling to find work and support our own families in our own country.

I believe that our policies have led us all to in effect steal from the poor as we have all benefited from their cheap labor.

We have not all benefited from their cheap labor. If that were the case we wouldn’t be having this debate. The only people who benefit from cheap labor are those who pay the wages and who get paid one way or another to look the other way (whether it be paid in votes, black market funds, drugs, etc.).

 

[YinYangMom]

The Mexican government is secular and anti Church.

The Mexican government is run by Catholic elected officials, and the people they serve are mostly Catholic.
Consider that it is because the number of undocumented workers is as high as it is here in the states, and because our government allows the right to protest and be heard, that the 12 million + are in a position to force our bovernment to rule on a matter which benefits them first and foremost.

Consider the demographics of Mexico: Population 108,700,891; Catholics - 76.5%, Protestant 6.3%. Imagine if all the Catholics in the country were to do there what they are doing here.

The Catholic teaching on social justice is the same for them as for any Catholic in the world, that’s what I’m talking about. If the Church is going to guide us here in the states to go against our government’s laws for the betterment of the ‘greater good’, then the same should hold true for the citizens of Mexico. They, too, should be guided to go against their government’s laws for the betterment of the greater good at home.

Economists conclude that they are a “NET GAIN”.

That’s propaganda.

These people have not been a “terrorist” risk and the best alternative to know who they are is to make a legalization process a reality.

They aren’t terrorist risks, but our stretched resources dealing with them in the numbers and frequencies that we do weaken our ability to keep an eye on the real threat to our national security.

Our government has not and does not feel that way about those that are already here.

I don’t know what you’re basing that on. If an undocumented worker gets caught with false social security identification they can press charges against the person. That they’ve chosen not to, and opt to deport them instead, is our government extending as much compassion as they can under the circumstances.

Because it would be a huge injustice to punish people that have been otherwise law abiding and have contributed to our economy and in reality have caused us no harm.

That’s like breaking into a home and staying in it for 3 weeks while the family is on vacation. You find money in the drawers, use the money to stock the cupboards and fridge, you cook, clean, do laundry, make the beds, leave everything just as it was before you got there. The family returns not aware that anything was wrong - until the utility bills arrive or the need to access the cash they had in the drawers. In reality the person who broke in caused them no harm, and contributed to the care/maintenance of the home (perhaps they watered the plants and mowed the lawn), but you cannot tell me the person was morally and legally right to do what he did or that the family would be horrible people should they choose to press charges against person. I suppose you’d recommend the family drop all charges and invite the person to live with them from there on out, in fact, you’d claim the Catholic church’s teachings would demand that they do since obviously this person is in need of a home, clothes, food, etc.

[Not quite. Our government did look the other way but it should have elected to bring more people legally to meet our demand for labor. We needed them and decided to use them.

Our government should have elected to go after the businesses feeding the demand. The labor force is here already. The conditions the employers are offering are unjust and that’s why the jobs go unfilled here at home.

It’s simply NOT doable and if it were it wouldn’t make economic sense.

I know that, but that doesn’t mean it is morally correct to not allow justice to be served on all those involved in creating the mess we’re in.
[/quote]

 

[Ituyu]

You and I are in agreement that our government looking the other way all those years was a greater moral wrong.

**Actually we’re not really in agreement at all. Our economy needed these workers so they did the right thing to not further impede them but they needed to take the initiative to see to it that these people had a legal option, they did not. **

And Cardinal Mahony is correct, should our laws require us to turn in the worker to face deportation but not require us to turn in the employers these workers are serving, then we are not morally obliged to follow that law because it harms other people, and not just the ‘right’ people

Except that our Cardinal’s position was not conditioned in any way with respect to employers.

I think your argument would carry more weight if our nation had closed border policies in force - where no immigration were allowed at all.

I’m glad you feel that way because we indeed closed the doors to the unskilled labor required to fill our jobs. We do have a limited amount of openings for “skilled” labor but nothing that would have helped the millions of unskilled workers that came and helped our economy grow. We simply refused to admit the necessary labor. It was an arbitrary decision. Even in agricultural jobs, we find a significant portion of those in the fields, are “illegal” even though in theory they should be able to get here legally.

Hogwash! A vast majority could not find anyone to fill open positions because they refused to pay decent wages for the work to be done or provide safe working conditions. It’s all about money. If they pay the wages to secure a work force they would have to sell a lot more of their product in order to break even, let alone make a profit. But since foreign countries do not have fair labor laws like we do they are able to produce the more product than our companies and turn a good profit. We claim we must give up the moral high ground of taking care of our workers in order to be in business at all. How is that honoring God’s laws?

You base this opinion on the false premise that we actually have the necessary number of people that are “ready, willing and able to work” to fill these jobs. They simply don’t exist! If they did, our unemployment levels would have necessarily increased when integrating millions of workers into our economy. One way we took care of OUR workers was through the added growth that the “illegal” provided that resulted in more jobs for our workers, not less.

Their intent, I said, was to work anywhere they could to sustain the family.

That much is correct.

They choose to take the poor wage/working condition jobs because they chose to enter the country illegally. They know they did something wrong by coming here that way. They know it, you know it, and so does the law when the law finally catches up with them.

Sorry but “an unjust law is no law” thus they did nothing wrong in coming. They didn’t choose to be exploited. Nothing prevented us from observing our own labor laws.

 

[Ituyu]

We didn’t deny them entry without good cause. The cause is regulating the rate by which immigrants assimilate into our culture. We have to ensure there is economic stability to sustain the influx. They just didn’t want to wait in line.

We had no good cause to deny them entry. It is clear that we needed millions more in the unskilled labor group than we allowed for. Our laws our intended to protect our workers from too much competition but we did the opposite by not allowing for a level playing field in some sectors.

We didn’t make them exploitable. They make themselves exploitable when they enter the country illegal - without the protections of our laws. It’s a price they are willing to pay, but in the long run it hurts us, them, and all those immigrants who came here legally.

Of course we did! It was a completely intentional policy on our part to close the legal doors. We knew that they would come, as they have had to do in the past, “illegally”. Thus, we made them exploitable. We wanted that EXTRA option to deport them, at will, if necessary. If you look at the record of deportations however, you will find that we really haven’t used that option.

The opportunities have not been closed. Our laws are the same as they’ve been for all the other legal immigrants in the system today. It’s just that more people want to come over here in a given year than we can sustain. They don’t care what an influx of labor will do to those of us who are struggling to find work and support our own families in our own country

.
Again another misunderstanding of what our economists have been telling us, the overall impact of all immigration in our economy has been positive and we have easily sustained and integrated them into our economy.

We have not

all benefited from their cheap labor. If that were the case we wouldn’t be having this debate. The only people who benefit from cheap labor are those who pay the wages and who get paid one way or another to look the other way (whether it be paid in votes, black market funds, drugs, etc.).

If you drive on our city roads, use public facilities, eat produce, meat and/or poultry in your home you have indeed benefited from their labor. If you eat at restaurants (fast food/sit down restaurants) you have benefited from their labor. If you wear designer clothing, again it is more than likely that an “illegal” had a hand in your fashion wear. Whether or not you are inclined to accept the reality, these people are manning needed jobs and pay taxes. The “illegal Black Market” is irrelevant to this discussion. There you have criminal activity and our ability to exclude serious criminals is not at issue.

 

[Ituyu]

The Mexican government is run by Catholic elected officials, and the people they serve are mostly Catholic.

The internal policies of Mexico is a topic for another thread. Mexico’s government is secular and the Catholic Church has less of a say in that government than in ours.

The Catholic teaching on social justice is the same for them as for any Catholic in the world, that’s what I’m talking about. If the Church is going to guide us here in the states to go against our government’s laws for the betterment of the ‘greater good’, then the same should hold true for the citizens of Mexico. They, too, should be guided to go against their government’s laws for the betterment of the greater good at home.

Catholic Social Teaching is clear that each government has a different set of circumstances. Ours is much different than those that exist in Mexico

That’s propaganda.

Now this is truly revealing! On what is this statement based? It is the CONSENSUS of our professional and scholarly economic community.

They aren’t terrorist risks,

THANK YOU!

I don’t know what you’re basing that on. If an undocumented worker gets caught with false social security identification they can

press charges against the person. That they’ve chosen not to, and opt to deport them instead, is our government extending as much compassion as they can under the circumstances.

Both charges are usually civil charges not “criminal”. They fall under the same umbrella. The lack of documentation is sufficient to deport. It’s not compassion at all. It’s less expensive to deport than to detain.

That’s like breaking into a home and staying in it for 3 weeks while the family is on vacation. You find money in the drawers, use the money to stock the cupboards and fridge, you cook, clean, do laundry, make the beds, leave everything just as it was before you got there. The family returns not aware that anything was wrong - until the utility bills arrive or the need to access the cash they had in the drawers.

This is an utter mis-characterization. To make the analogy work one would presume that the person would come onto public property but not into a home and after all was said and done leave you with more money even after all expenses. That would represent their necessity to live in the shadows and not actually have the ability to partake fully in our society and the “Net Gain” that they give us.

Our government should have elected to go after the businesses feeding the demand. The labor force is here already. The conditions the employers are offering are unjust and that’s why the jobs go unfilled here at home.

Uh, it’s been covered in my last post. You allude to a phantom labor force. It doesn’t exist.

I know that, but that doesn’t mean it is morally correct to not allow justice to be served on all those involved in creating the mess we’re in.

That would include me and you as has been discussed this before. There is NO JUSTICE in punishing those who have caused NO HARM.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

My apologies, I must have confused you with someone from the New Sanctuary Movement thread.

Maybe you were thinking of me? I support open borders, which are coming to successful borders soon

You and I are in agreement that our government looking the other way all those years was a greater moral wrong. This is why the movement to change our policies is warranted. But until the legal changes take hold justice still calls for the fines/deportations of any undocumented workers caught, not amnesty. I’d be much happier if the fines and criminal charges would be filed against the darn employers as well! Justice would then be filled on all parties. For too long we’ve served justice on the worker but not on the employer. I have little faith that even this new reform movement will result in any real action **against the greater evil **here - greed on the part of those who break moral and social laws to up their bottom line.

What is this greater evil you speak of? What is the employer guilty of? If you hire some one to mow your yard, and unknown by you they are not legal citizen, say they are English but over stayed their Visa why should YOU go to jail? YOU had no intent

And Cardinal Mahony is correct, should our laws require us to turn in the worker to face deportation but not require us to turn in the employers these workers are serving, then we are not morally obliged to follow that law because it harms other people, and not just the ‘right’ people.

But our immigration laws are not in violation of God’s laws. We have many programs set up to allow regulated influxes of immigrants into our country to study, to work, to live. We even have laws to ensure those immigrants do not get abused. When an undocumented worker chooses to ignore those laws then that person is breaking God’s law for his own personal gain, not to protect other innocent people from harm. I think your argument would carry more weight if our nation had closed border policies in force - where no immigration were allowed at all.

I see this exactly opposite as I read your post. For some to stand in great poverty with others on one side of the line when they could cross the line and work to provide for their family is in my opinion opposing God’s Law. To cross that border go to work and reduce stress on your family is keeping with God’s Law. That is my opinion

in regard to employer hunting employees]Hogwash! A vast majority could not find anyone to fill open positions because they refused to pay decent wages for the work to be done or provide safe working conditions. It’s all about money. If they pay the wages to secure a work force they would have to sell a lot more of their product in order to break even, let alone make a profit. But since foreign countries do not have fair labor laws like we do they are able to produce the more product than our companies and turn a good profit. We claim we must give up the moral high ground of taking care of our workers in order to be in business at all. How is that honoring God’s laws?

This statement does not appear related to God’s Law in my mind, however it shows a common misunderstanding of economics. If you look at any product or service ( say mowing a yard for money) the Market pays $X ( say $30) then you have the costs G$ (government required regulations) + $T(Taxes) + $E(equipment) + $S(supplies) + $L(Labor) = < $30 So you can see the more you raise government regulation by investigating workers history and increase Taxes to increase border security the less money is left for workers or supplies( to include safety supplies!). The false thought is the $30 will simply increase say to $42 because the taxes, regulation, increase labor cost (lets have some one with a Master’s degree is do the moving @$72k/year). The reality is some will pay the $42 while others will simply go unmowed. These unmowed yards represent a net loss to the economy which would be echoed by thousands of other similar losses

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Their intent, I said, was to work anywhere they could to sustain the family.

this is the reason I see their decision in line with God’s Law

They choose to take the poor wage/working condition jobs because they chose to enter the country illegally. They know they did something wrong by coming here that way. They know it, you know it, and so does the law when the law finally catches up with them.

My view is we did something wrong by attempting to prevent our brothers from providing for their families

We didn’t deny them entry without good cause. The cause is regulating the rate by which immigrants assimilate into our culture.

This appears opposite the teaching of the Church and scripture. I do not see places in either where Jesus leaves some behind to make it easir on himself Did you hear about the day he was short on bread and wine?

We have to ensure there is economic stability to sustain the influx. They just didn’t want to wait in line.

The economics improve with immigration, the standing in line does not occur ever, that again is the misunderstanding. If you stood in line to get food, then you would not enter the country, If you stood in line to enter legally ,well, that is the plan today how is that working out?

We didn’t make them exploitable. They make themselves exploitable when they enter the country illegal - without the protections of our laws. It’s a price they are willing to pay, but in the long run it hurts us, them, and all those immigrants who came here legally.

Maybe they are exploited because we do not allow them to enter legally in a reasonable fashion? How does it hurt us given they actually improve our economy? Maybe some want them to be illegal so they can have some one to exploit??!!??

The opportunities have not been closed. Our laws are the same as they’ve been for all the other legal immigrants in the system today. It’s just that more people want to come over here in a given year than we can sustain. They don’t care what an influx of labor will do to those of us who are struggling to find work and support our own families in our own country.We have not all benefited from their cheap labor. If that were the case we wouldn’t be having this debate. The only people who benefit from cheap labor are those who pay the wages and who get paid one way or another to look the other way (whether it be paid in votes, black market funds, drugs, etc.).

Rhetoric anyone lets just call them crack whores who steal for a living? How does a man offering to mow your yard for $30 qualify as a fraud voting, black market dealing, drug user(?) Thank goodness the Church teaches the 10 commandments. Yes practically everybody benefits from cheap labor except those who should improve them self BUT DON’T. Think about what you are saying, an employer has a choice to hire one of the two a) a Mexican who has little education, speaks practically no English yet will work very hard for $10/hour, or b) a White kid who is spoiled won’t work hard for any amount, wants $25/hour and likes to whine a lot, and is very well educated. Maybe the Mexican did not steal anything maybe he earned it.

 

[Dee_Dee_King]

Think about what you are saying, an employer has a choice to hire one of the two a) a Mexican who has little education, speaks practically no English yet will work very hard for $10/hour, or b) a White kid who is spoiled won’t work hard for any amount, wants $25/hour and likes to whine a lot, and is very well educated. Maybe the Mexican did not steal anything maybe he earned it.

no doubt americans are by in large spoiled. but you are being a hypocrite if you think you have any right to move where ever you please to have a better quality of life. food and shelter are one thing, but seeking wealth to buy useless junk is another.

you can’t expect americans to all embrace hords of illegal migrants crossing the border. we have a culture that is predominately western european. can you blame us for wanting to protect our identity? we want to protect our way of life and our jobs. how much poisonous liberation theology and marxism is being imported as well? all we ask for is regulation and control of migration. paying migrants poorly isn’t good for them or americans. this will undoubtedly hurt the family.

another reason we do not want illegal migration is because liberal anti-catholic anti-family politicians cater to ignorant uneducated migrants to gain power. our politians have sold our country out to big buisness and globalism.

bush may very well go down in history as one of the worst presidents ever over this issue. practically nobody wants this immigration bill to move forward except those who benefit finacially from cheap labor.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

no doubt americans are by in large spoiled. but **you are being a hypocrite **if you think you have any right to move where ever you please to have a better quality of life. food and shelter are one thing, but seeking wealth to buy useless junk is another.

Hypocrite? Is a hypocrite one who embraces God’s Law?

you can’t expect americans to all embrace hords of illegal migrants crossing the border. we have a culture that is predominately western european.

Umh if they are western European’s should they not go home first! Most of the people you seam to want to deport are Native.

can you blame us for wanting to protect our identity? we want to protect our way of life and our jobs. how much **poisonous liberation theology and marxism **is being imported as well? all we ask for is regulation and control of migration. paying migrants poorly isn’t good for them or americans. this will undoubtedly hurt the family.

Until the recent disaster of conservatism involved free markets, free trade, private property. All are being taken away by people who call themselves conservative. May be people who are for these things are liberal in your mind? Maybe people who believe you should earn your way, be honest, truthful, abide by religion maybe these are your liberals?

another reason we do not want illegal migration is because liberal anti-catholic anti-family politicians cater to ignorant uneducated migrants to gain power. our politians have sold our country out to big buisness and globalism.

So your saying the Mexicans which are predominately Catholic have a bad influence on the US? Well,…

bush may very well go down in history as one of the worst presidents ever over this issue. practically nobody wants this immigration bill to move forward except those who benefit finacially from cheap labor.

Cheap labor is a result of more labor than the need for labor thus wage goes down, however if you greatly reduce the amount of labor you run 2 risks (1) reduction in jobs many jobs are simply abandoned or automated, (2) Moving the jobs overseas. Both are occurring in the US. You may want to read about Japan they in my opinion priced their people out of their economy, the results were not pretty.

 

[Dee_Dee_King]

Hypocrite? Is a hypocrite one who embraces God’s Law?

a hypocrite because on one hand you’re criticizing spoiled americans who want to work for more money yet you support illegals who knowingly break the law to work for more money. in both cases, you have people who think the world owes them something.

Umh if they are western European’s should they not go home first! Most of the people you seam to want to deport are Native

yes, we are western europeans and if you want to go that route, we all should go back. indigenous people of n. and s. america are decendents of mongolians in asia. they came here from somewhere else too.

Maybe people who believe you should earn your way, be honest, truthful, abide by religion maybe these are your liberals?

not at all. if you’re honest and truthful, then you don’t break just laws. you respect the values of your host country. something i don’t see with recent hispanic migrants who come here.

So your saying the Mexicans which are predominately Catholic have a bad influence on the US? Well,…

absolutely!!! that is my whole point. they are being decieved to support the liberal progressive left. the people who want no border control are the same ones who call for marxist reforms of this country. they hate the catholic church and the family. being catholic is no garauntee of orthodoxy. catholic politicans in this country have done a lot of harm, especially the usccb.

 

[Ituyu]

Well,… Cheap labor is a result of more labor than the need for labor thus wage goes down, however if you greatly reduce the amount of labor you run 2 risks (1) reduction in jobs many jobs are simply abandoned or automated, (2) Moving the jobs overseas. Both are occurring in the US. You may want to read about Japan they in my opinion priced their people out of their economy, the results were not pretty.

Absolutely! Millions of Mexicans work two or more jobs and still live in poverty. And still, there are millions with no work at all and that is what makes them exploitable when they take the personal risks of coming here “illegally”. Yet, when we consider our economy as a whole, they have only added to our strength and growth. Unemployment has not shot up so the outcry to scapegoat them on economic grounds is completely unfounded. Until we accept the fact that these people ARE NOT the problem we will continue our unjust actions through draconian and stupidly expensive legislation like S1348. Unfortunately, that may be the best that hardened and fear filled hearts will allow. Natural Law will take its eventual course and the face of our nation will change, no matter what. A number of countries are currently paying the price for their inability to accept that fact and have put themselves in unenviable positions.

I’m afraid that most people on this board have misconstrued the meaning of “open borders”. Here, I think they believe that it means to allow entry to all, even terrorists and other criminals. And unfortunately, they mistakenly refer to the majority of the “illegal” as criminals when they are not guilty of a criminal act but of a Civil violation. Both involve the breaking of a law but, as you know, there is a distinct difference between criminal acts and civil violations. And, what this nation has done to the “illegal” is in violation of a higher LAW, in my opinion.