Immitation of Mohhamed?????

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Well you say so, but you don’t know how he can be God’s Son who eternally existed as God but yet was begotten by God after God already existed. Then we are stuck in an endless loop of confusion.

He wasn’t begotten after God already existed. He is eternally begotten, not made, not created. The Father’s nature causes the Son to exist. So, where and when is the Father, there and then is the Son. They know with the same intellect. They love with the same will.

Unless you see it the way I see it.

Please understand, we did not discover the Trinity. (If you don’t believe in the Bible, you won’t believe in the Trinity.) The Three Persons were revealed to us by God via the Bible, and our finite minds of our human nature can not comprehend the eternal and infinite nature of God. We’re just trying to get more light on it.

---

I’m tired. I need to go to bed now.

 

[Reuben_J]

So in other words you don’t know how Jesus is really Son of God.

I know Jesus is really the Son of God by the testimony of his witnesses and the Holy Word of the Scripture. By the word of God I know, not by any other source or reasoning.

I have written some long posts, and to make it simple I’ll quote some verses for you. I can come back later and give you longer explanation if you want me to. I really don’t know whether Muslims posters here actually read our explanations, because you guys just don’t seem to listen to them.

**Jn 1:32-34
32Then John (the Baptist) gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God.”

I quote this verses because Muslims treat John the Baptist with esteem. This the testimony of John the Baptist himself.

Jn 3:16-18
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.**

God gave His one and only Son. Cf. Isa 9:6 (“a son is given,” referring to the Messianic Son of David – who is also God’s Son [see 2 Sam 7:14 his father … my son]. This familial language expresses the special relationship God promise to maintain with descendants of David’s throne. It mark him as the one whom God has chosen and enthroned to rule in his name as the official representative of God’s rule over his people (see Ps 2:7,Ps 45:6, 89:7). In Jesus Christ this promise come to ultimate fulfillment (see Mk 1:11, Heb 1:5).

Although believers are also called “sons” of God (2 Cor 6:18, Gal 4:4-6, Jesus is God’s Son in a unique sense. John 20:31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

God himself said that Jesus is his Son.

**Matthew 3:16-17
16As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

Matthew 17:5
5While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”**

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Although believers are also called “sons” of God (2 Cor 6:18, Gal 4:4-6, Jesus is God’s Son in a unique sense.

[/INDENT]

Yes but so is Adam son of God is a unique sense, being directly created by God not through sexual intercourse.

Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

I read everything Christians say but I keep going back to no other gods but God. When you have a Father God who is just God, and a Son God who is man + God, then you have two Gods, one fully God, the other God + man. And then a third deity of the Holy Spirit.

And the Son God depends on the Father God for life which Hebrews 5:7 says so it is subordinate to the Father God. So when you get down to it the only way you can explain it is with Arianism which is what JWs adhere to. And it still makes for at least two Gods when God told us in Exodus to have no other gods.

And you can’t say Jesus was completely there in Exodus since Jesus isn’t Jesus without a human nature and spirit. You can say God’s Word was there but then again, I just see God’s Word as the one God’s commands to people, what He says. I don’t see it as another deity.

So it just is so much less confusing to say that God is God, His power goes out as the Holy Spirit, and what He says goes out as God’s Word. Then there is a human prophet Jesus that God created for a special purpose, God’s Spirit went to dwell in him, and Jesus spoke God’s Word and became God’s Word to the people, a human that rules over us with the power of God.

It is that confusion over Trinity that almost caused me to become an atheist early in my life, and it keeps Muslims from understanding Jesus more, and Jews from Jesus altogether.

So that’s why I would imitate Mohammed’s teachings on that, getting back to the topic.

 

[Reuben_J]

Yes but so is Adam son of God is a unique sense, being directly created by God not through sexual intercourse.

Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

I read everything Christians say but I keep going back to no other gods but God. When you have a Father God who is just God, and a Son God who is man + God, then you have two Gods, one fully God, the other God + man. And then a third deity of the Holy Spirit.

And the Son God depends on the Father God for life which Hebrews 5:7 says so it is subordinate to the Father God. So when you get down to it the only way you can explain it is with Arianism which is what JWs adhere to. And it still makes for at least two Gods when God told us in Exodus to have no other gods.

And you can’t say Jesus was completely there in Exodus since Jesus isn’t Jesus without a human nature and spirit. You can say God’s Word was there but then again, I just see God’s Word as the one God’s commands to people, what He says. I don’t see it as another deity.

So it just is so much less confusing to say that God is God, His power goes out as the Holy Spirit, and what He says goes out as God’s Word. Then there is a human prophet Jesus that God created for a special purpose, God’s Spirit went to dwell in him, and Jesus spoke God’s Word and became God’s Word to the people, a human that rules over us with the power of God.

It is that confusion over Trinity that almost caused me to become an atheist early in my life, and it keeps Muslims from understanding Jesus more, and Jews from Jesus altogether.

So that’s why I would imitate Mohammed’s teachings on that, getting back to the topic.

You are saying this because of your belief as a Muslim. Your thougth is entrenched in what the Quran and Mohammad tell you.

But it is not difficult for us to understand the Trinity. Everything makes sense for us. As for the mystery, we believe it because we know we cannot know everything about God.

We cannot imitate Mohammad because of the sins that he lived and committed. As simple as that. If you don’t have it how can you give it to others.

OTOH, Jesus is sinless. And he does miracles. And He heals.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

You are saying this because of your belief as a Muslim. Your thougth is entrenched in what the Quran and Mohammad tell you.

But it is not difficult for us to understand the Trinity. Everything makes sense for us. As for the mystery, we believe it because we know we cannot know everything about God.

We cannot imitate Mohammad because of the sins that he lived and committed. As simple as that. If you don’t have it how can you give it to others.

OTOH, Jesus is sinless. And he does miracles. And He heals.

No it isn’t, I was raised Christian with Trinity. I almost gave up on Jesus completely because it was so confusing. Luckily I found Islam and my belief in Jesus as Messiah as king over all of us is stronger than ever, stronger than that of any Christian I personally know in real life, for sure. Most Christians I know don’t like to even talk about him, I have to go online to do it.

But I believe Jesus is a human, not part of a complicated deity package. That doesn’t take away from his glory at all, it only adds to it since how hard is it for a God not to sin and keep faith and triumph like Jesus did? But it’s pretty hard for a mere mortal as I believe Jesus to be.

I don’t believe Mohammed was a sinless man, but I reject that every tidbit of gossip about him is true either. Remember that some people think Jesus was an evil wizard and false prophet born of a Roman soldier. Just remember that every idle word is accounted for in Heaven.

 

[planten]

You are saying this because of your belief as a Muslim. Your thougth is entrenched in what the Quran and Mohammad tell you.

But it is not difficult for us to understand the Trinity. Everything makes sense for us. As for the mystery, we believe it because we know we cannot know everything about God.

We cannot imitate Mohammad because of the sins that he lived and committed. As simple as that. If you don’t have it how can you give it to others.

OTOH, Jesus is sinless. And he does miracles. And He heals.

**Jesus was a begotten son, the only begotten son, in what sense? There are so many symbolic words in use. They are not real words as we use them in daily life.

There are so many complications in the church theory about Trinity, i.e. three in one and one is three, quite a complicated equation. Then we see the Abraham begat Issac and issac begat Jacob and Jacob begat JUDAH and then we learn that God begat Jesus. So Jesus was the begotten son. How come?? Please see the language of the bible that I mentioned that Abraham begat issac. What is all this??

If God did not beget Jesus then Jesus cannot be the begotten son of God. That means God existed before he begat Jesus.

Then we learn that perhaps Jesus was a spiritually begotten son of God. I was alright upto that and willing to believe that. But now I have recently come to know that Jesus created everything, including the big god and his mother Mary and the father David. So Jesus may have begotten the father god also spiritually.

It is never good to use too many metaphors. It is better to talk in real terms. If ever we have to talk in symbolic language then we should make it clear that it is symbolic, not real.**

 

[rpp]

This thread has been hijacked.

 

[inJESUS]

When Jesus name steps in, all should hide…no room for comparison.

SON OF GOD:

Begotten does not mean create at a certain time as if God had no Logos/Wisdom until He created it. Father, Word, Spirit exist eternally. Begets means it proceeds from Him eternally as His essence.

son of God is not a divine title…but Jesus is the eternal Word of the Father, His Son that proceeds from Him eternally.

 

[rpp]

When Jesus name steps in, all should hide…no room for comparison.

SON OF GOD:

Begotten does not mean create at a certain time as if God had no Logos/Wisdom until He created it. Father, Word, Spirit exist eternally. Begets means it proceeds from Him eternally as His essence.

son of God is not a divine title…but Jesus is the eternal Word of the Father, His Son that proceeds from Him eternally.

What does this have to do with Imitation of Mohamed?

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

This thread has been hijacked.

What does this have to do with Imitation of Mohamed?

Hi rpp,

I realise this is frustrating. But to imitate Mohamed is to deny the divinity of Christ. We are trying to explain why Christ is divine.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Yes but so is Adam son of God is a unique sense, being directly created by God not through sexual intercourse…

Hi again FaithofAbraham,

I think you are too hung up on words. Adam was created. Jesus always existed.

Jesus is likened to Adam, because Adam caused the fall of the world through that original sin. Jesus is the new Adam. Jesus has come to save the world from sin.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Jesus was a begotten son, the only begotten son, in what sense? …

He is the only begotten son in that He is only saviour that came into this world in a physical sense.

That’s just my thoughts. :twocents:
I have a started a new thread in the apologetics forum, because it is an interesting question.

If God did not beget Jesus then Jesus cannot be the begotten son of God. That means God existed before he begat Jesus.

I explained in post # 120 (to FaithofAbraham) that God always begat Jesus. The Father’s nature causes the Son to exist.

(If you’ve missed it, please read post # 120.)

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Hi again FaithofAbraham,

I think you are too hung up on words. Adam was created. Jesus always existed.

Jesus is likened to Adam, because Adam caused the fall of the world through that original sin. Jesus is the new Adam. Jesus has come to save the world from sin.

Well there was a man called Jesus with a human spirit and body, so then you are saying that a man of flesh existed forever as God.

And then you will say he didn’t exist forever, that God just found the human spirit and flesh – the things that make a man – in His closet or something and put it on like a suit. So to me that’s what the human spirit of Jesus is being reduced to, some old clothes God used for a while then threw away.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Well there was a man called Jesus with a human spirit and body, so then you are saying that a man of flesh existed forever as God.

:nope: He became man.

And then you will say he didn’t exist forever, that God just found the human spirit and flesh – the things that make a man – in His closet or something and put it on like a suit. So to me that’s what the human spirit of Jesus is being reduced to, some old clothes God used for a while then threw away.

When you and I die, we will continue to exist. But our bodies won’t. Would you agree with me on that? If so, don’t be hung up on the matter of a human body.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

:nope: He became man.

When you and I die, we will continue to exist. But our bodies won’t. Would you agree with me on that? If so, don’t be hung up on the matter of a human body.

Ok, forget the flesh. If Jesus had a real live human spirit, aren’t we just saying God created a man with a human spirit and went to dwell in him so that the spirit of God and spirit of man were in one body? That’s called a prophet.

It’s like your doctrine wants to make that human spirit something different than what it is just because God dwelled with it, thus dehumanizing it.

 

[rpp]

Hi rpp,

I realise this is frustrating. But to imitate Mohamed is to deny the divinity of Christ. We are trying to explain why Christ is divine.

Then start a different thread.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Ok, forget the flesh. If Jesus had a real live human spirit, aren’t we just saying God created a man with a human spirit and went to dwell in him so that the spirit of God and spirit of man were in one body?..

:nope: Jesus has a real live human body. Not a human spirit. A spirit is a being that knows and loves. Jesus’ spirit was divine. Jesus and the Father know with the same intellect. Jesus and the Father love with the same will. Their divine spirit is infinite - which means it is utterly simple and cannot be divided up; it can not be copied; it can be possessed only in its totality. The spirit of Jesus is exactly the same as the spirit of the Father.

You and I have different spirits. You and I have different intellects, and different wills. But Jesus and the Father have the same intellect and the same will.

… That’s called a prophet.

:nope: A prophet is somebody associated with prophecy.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

:nope: Jesus has a real live human body. Not a human spirit. A spirit is a being that knows and loves. Jesus’ spirit was divine. Jesus and the Father know with the same intellect. Jesus and the Father love with the same will. Their divine spirit is infinite - which means it is utterly simple and cannot be divided up; it can not be copied; it can be possessed only in its totality. The spirit of Jesus is exactly the same as the spirit of the Father.

You and I have different spirits. You and I have different intellects, and different wills. But Jesus and the Father have the same intellect and the same will.

:nope: A prophet is somebody associated with prophecy.

“Not a human spirit.” Others here say he has a human spirit. I don’t see how he couldn’t have a human spirit if he is tempted with sin as a human, and had to struggle with it just like we do.

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Jesus also gave prophecies of the future and end time.

It just flip-flops back and forth between “no he is God, no he is human” on and on depending on what Christian I ask and what question I ask, and is confusion and mystery so let’s just let it go. The discussion is upsetting rpp anyway.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Thank you, it challenges me too and I’m glad for your time and discussion. See you around on other threads.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Thank you, it challenges me too and I’m glad for your time and discussion. See you around on other threads.

Ok thanks.