Immoral sex within marriage

[Nate13]

Enjoy (courtesy of Tim Staples btw)

Gn 1:27-28 (Gen 9:1, Gen 35:11) - be fruitful and multiply
Ps 127:3-5 - children gift from God, blessed is a full quiver
1 Chr 25:5 - God gave 14 sons and 3 daughters to exalt him
1 Chr 26:4-5 - God indeed blessed Obed-edom with 8 sons
Hos 9:10-17 - Israel is punished with childlessness
Ex 23:25-26 - blessings promised: no miscarrying, barrenness
Dt 7:13-14 - you will be blessed: no male or female barrenness
Gn 38:9-10 - Onan killed for spilling his seed on the ground.
Dt 25:5-10 - penalty for defying Levirate law: not death
Lv 20:13 - if man lies with man, put to death (wasting seed) Note: there is no similar penalty for lesbian action or relations between single man single woman (Dt 22:28-29)
Lv 20:15 - if man lies with animal, put to death (sterile sex)
Lv 20:16 - women lies with animal, put to death (sterile sex)
Lv 21:17-20 - crushed testicle is called a defect and blemish
Dt 23:1 - no one who is castrated shall enter the assembly
Dt 25:11-12 - punishment for potential damage to genitals
Rom 1:25-27 - natural function of women (=childbearing)
1 Tim 2:11-15 - women saved thru the bearing of children
Act 5:1-11 Ananias/Saphira slain-withholding part of a gift
Gal 6:7-9 - God is not mocked-accepting pleasure, denying fruit (this is a good one!)
Mt 21:19 , Mk 11:14 - Jesus cursed fruitless fig tree
Gal 5:20, Rv 9:21, Rv 21:8 - Greek pharmakeia = abortifacient potions
1 Cor 6:19-20 - body is a temple of the holy spirit, glorify God in body

 

[thistle]

I dont want to sound like an aggressor, but I have never in my life read or heard of any official Church doctrine stating:

A) Sex MUST end with a man climaxing in the womb of a woman and,

B) That foreplay is forbidden if it doesnt end in climaxing in the woman.

What your saying essentially is, “Sex doesnt have to end in a child, BUT you have to end in climaxing in your spouse.” Thats like me saying “You dont have to kill that person, BUT you have to shoot in his general direction and hope the bullet misses.”

Correct me if I misunderstand.

Read the extracts from Humanae Vitae. It is crystal clear that all sexual activity must culminate with a husband climaxing inside his wife!!

1. Hence conjugal love requires in husband and wife an awareness of their mission of “responsible parenthood,” which today is rightly much insisted upon, and which also must be exactly understood. Consequently it is to be considered under different aspects which are legitimate and connected with one another.

In relation to the biological processes, responsible parenthood means the knowledge and respect of their functions; human intellect discovers in the power of giving life biological laws which are part of the human person.9

In relation to the tendencies of instinct or passion, responsible parenthood means that necessary dominion which reason and will must exercise over them.

In relation to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised, either by the deliberate and generous decision to raise a numerous family, or by the decision, made for grave motives and with due respect for the moral law, to avoid for the time being, or even for an indeterminate period, a new birth.

Responsible parenthood also and above all implies a more profound relationship to the objective moral order established by God, of which a right conscience is the faithful interpreter. The responsible exercise of parenthood implies, therefore, that husband and wife recognize fully their own duties towards God, towards themselves, towards the family and towards society, in a correct hierarchy of values.

In the task of transmitting life, therefore, they are not free to proceed completely at will, as if they could determine in a wholly autonomous way the honest path to follow; but** they must conform their activity to the creative intention of God, expressed in the very nature of marriage and of its acts, and manifested by the constant teaching of the Church**.10

1. These acts, by which husband and wife are united in chaste intimacy, and by means of which human life is transmitted, are, as the Council recalled, "noble and worthy,"11 and they do not cease to be lawful if, for causes independent of the will of husband and wife, they are foreseen to be infecund, since they always remain ordained towards expressing and consolidating their union. In fact, as experience bears witness, not every conjugal act is followed by a new life. God has wisely disposed natural laws and rhythms of fecundity which, of themselves, cause a separation in the succession of births.** Nonetheless the Church, calling men back to the observance of the norms of the natural law, as interpreted by their constant doctrine, teaches that each and every marriage act (quilibet matrimonii usus) must remain open to the transmission of life.**12

 

[speakttruth]

Look, not being self-righteous here, just basic:

Climaxing in your wife’s rectum,
is as wrong as climaxing in a rubber condom.
For the same reason: The proper use of the male seed
has then been frustrated, and knowingly so.
Instead of the possibility of the seed fertilizing a possible egg,
it has instead been deposited into the fecal matter canal, into
the lower end of the large intestine.
Some people, men and women, may enjoy receiving anal sex.
But the fact that they enjoy it, doesn’t make it any less nasty and
extremely dangerous. The rectum/anus is chock full of extremely dangerous
bacteria. Get that into the tip end of your penis, and you could get a raging infection.
Conversely, your thrusting could tear your wife’s rectum and cause her bacteria
to pass through the lining into her blood and give HER an extremely dangerous infection.
Some men even pull out of the rectum and insert their member directly into their wife’s
vagina, thus running the risk of causing her to get a raging and dangerous infection throughout her female organs due to the rectal/fecal bacteria being inserted into her vagina. Men should not being doing this to their wives, it is not sanitary and it is very dangerous to the health of both partners. For that reason, it is not truly a “loving” thing to do.

Hi, I have heard Fr. Larry Richards in his cd on confession say anything is permissible between a married couple, including oral sex except things that would be degrading and also in agreement with both of them as long as they are following the completion with intercourse. Close to his exact words.
Your so right about anal sex. It would be degrading, because it is as dangerous for heterosexuals as it is for homosexuals. As Catholics we are not suppose to use condoms so a man would be transferring fecal matter to thier wife. Homosexuals have a higher risk of anal cancer, so why would a Catholic man want to do that? It goes against nature. That spot is for an exit, not and entrance. Gross

 

[surritter]

Hi, I have heard Fr. Larry Richards in his cd on confession say anything is permissible between a married couple, including oral sex except things that would be degrading and also in agreement with both of them as long as they are following the completion with intercourse. Close to his exact words.
Your so right about anal sex. It would be degrading, because it is as dangerous for heterosexuals as it is for homosexuals. As Catholics we are not suppose to use condoms so a man would be transferring fecal matter to thier wife. Homosexuals have a higher risk of anal cancer, so why would a Catholic man want to do that? It goes against nature. That spot is for an exit, not and entrance. Gross

Agreed! A minor point I would tweak, however: We should say, “As people created in the image and likeness of God, we are not suppose to use condoms” rather than “As Catholics…”
(Condoms are just as wrong for Protestants and other non-Catholics, even if they don’t think so!)

 

[speakttruth]

Agreed! A minor point I would tweak, however: We should say, “As people created in the image and likeness of God, we are not suppose to use condoms” rather than “As Catholics…”
(Condoms are just as wrong for Protestants and other non-Catholics, even if they don’t think so!)

Thanks, sometimes I don’t always use the right wording, but you get my point.
God Bless

 

[joshkt79]

Do I think oral/anal sex is immoral? I don’t know, but I believe at one time, it was forbidden even within a marriage. As silly as it may seem, I think the “rules” were changed because too many husbands were complaining about having to confess their sins after receiving oral sex from their wife and vice versa. You mean to tell me that a guy cannot masturbate with his wife’s permission, even if he does not climax, but his wife can masturbate the husband, just as long as he climaxes inside her? Doesn’t sound right to me.

 

[Bookcat]

As silly as it may seem, I think the “rules” were changed

No the “rules” were not changed. This is not about “rules”.

Rules are for games not the morality of human actions. Morality has to do with the truth and meaning of human sexuality.

I have not followed lately this thread…but I imagine the Teachings of the Church and good moral theology will have noted somewhere in the thread…so I will not go into things here.

 

[ahs]

How do I explain to a Protestant that sexual acts within marriage like anal and oral sex can be sin along with masturbation and others?

PS It’s a Sola Scriptura Protestant

Nate13 gave some super Scripture references to use. But, just so you know, you can also use the Catechism references to help the Protestant understand the morality. The Catechism doesn’t just give the Church teaching, it gives that teaching with an explanation to is often very clear and follows well with the messages in the Scriptures.

CCC 1639-1654 and 2337-2400 will give you the Church teaching as well a deep look into “why”. Theology of the Body is also an excellent look into the “why” that can help you (and Protestants) understand the Church’s position.

 

[Newbie2]

Call me whatever, but quite honestly, I think it is more immoral to use Natural family planning to avoid pregnancy and devolve sex to nothing more then a scheduled, rhythmic/systematic thing that takes away the spontaneous, romantic element of spiritual and emotional bonding then a couple having oral sex and not climaxing into the female.

I suppose I will have to pray to understand the teaching and to come into complete conformity of thought, but for now I remain skeptical that any extraordinary forms of sex that dont result in climaxing in a womans womb are sinful or immoral, while making sex a systematic static practice is not. I can understand contraceptive devices being immoral and wrong, as they are 100%, both practically and in theory, used only to prevent pregnancy. Oral sex, and any extraordinary form of sex for that matter, is not centered around the sole idea of not bearing fruit.

Im also a believer that Morality is subjective and constantly being explored and changed through other theological and behavioral studies as well as with circumstances and thought.

Anyways, thanks for the discussion points, and trust me, I do put myself in others shoes and I do understand how and where you are coming from, just as I am sure you understand my own points and views on the matter.

Not surprising.

But I do hope that you do take the time to read and consider the teachings in Humanae Vitae.

 

[ahs]

Im also a believer that Morality is…constantly being explored and changed through other theological and behavioral studies as well as with circumstances and thought…

The Church’s teaching on morality is unchanging because God is unchanging. The teachings of the Church are not just of the Church, they are from God who has established His Church.

 

[OraLabora]

Morality has to do with the truth and meaning of human sexuality.

This is true. There is a deep, profound moral truth, and that includes sexuality. It is immutable, unchangeable.

But, flawed humans that we are, our understanding of that truth is incomplete, veiled by subjectivity, and evolving. It is therefore unfair to blast ConstantinePX for what he said.

A good example is the Aristotelian concept of a man’s seed. Aristotle believed that the man’s seed contained all the necessary material for life, and that a woman merely acted as an incubator for a man’s seed. Therefore each time seed was spilled, a baby was killed.

Much of Aquinas’ understanding of Natural Law was based on Aristotelian philosophy. But we now know that a man’s seed contains millions of sperm cells, which is only half of the genetic makeup of a child, the woman providing the other half. Moreover we know that of the billions of sperm cells produced in a man’s lifetime, only a handful will ever fuse with an egg to produce a human life.

There is much to be learned still about human sexuality, for example the impact on birth defects of old vs. young sperm cells, and the human body’s way of maintaining sperm health.

I would therefore be inclined to think that our understanding of human sexual morality is still a work in progress.

And this is not limited to the area of sexuality. In Biblical times slavery was widely accepted and we were admonished to treat our slaves well, because the Biblical books were written for the times in which they were written.

Who today though, among Catholics, would argue that a return to slavery would be moral?

 

[larsenl1]

Constantine (and the OP): Any type of sex that culminates with willful separation of the procreative and unitive aspects of sex is always wrong. That’s why contraceptive sex, anal sex, and homosexuality are all “covered” by the same moral law. It’s not that someone is “telling you what to do,” but it is a misuse of biology.

There is a documented case of a teenage girl who has not had vaginal intercourse conceiving a child only from regular anal sex with her boyfriend. They thought they were preventing the possibility of a child.

God is not in a box. He can work miracles and those sperm in young adolescent males is tough and determined.

 

[Road2Damascus]

Hi, I have heard Fr. Larry Richards in his cd on confession say anything is permissible between a married couple, including oral sex except things that would be degrading and also in agreement with both of them as long as they are following the completion with intercourse. Close to his exact words.
…

I heard another source say this too, so I think this post is important.