Immorally Conceived Children

[Petergee]

I am in a time warp because my generation did not discuss the how to and how we did of reproduction in casual conversation with casual acquaintances, in what seems to be dinner table chat these days. Why on earth should I know anything about how your child was conceived any more than you, if you are not my doctor or husband, need to know anything whatever about my own fertility history? I think it would be a fine thing if we went back to teaching children that some things are private and questions and discussions of them are out of order.

Same here though I hardly think of myself as old, I am gobsmacked that even my own generation talks like that, as if the most intimate questions you could possibly ask someone are suitable for casual chit chat with people you have just met.
I think that part of the explanation is that people subcosciously or unstatedly realise that such things as IVF and contraception are immoral, so they try to overcompensate by talking about them as if they were no more morally consequential than deciding which colour shirt to wear, and so try to convence themselves and others that there is no moral issue here.

 

[Petergee]

Not wanting to “force” Catholic beliefs on the other

The immorality of IVF is not just a Catholic belief and is not just binding on Catholics but on the whole human race. Don’t get bullied into agreeing with the assertion that opposing IVF is just some weird irrational religious taboo with no basis in objective rational moral law available to all mankind.

 

[Petergee]

No child is immoral. To attempt to explain such a thing to a child would be nothing short of cruelty.

On the contrary, it is cruelty to NOT explain morality to a child.

It is so easy to say that IVF, etc is “immoral”. Almost everyone that says such things is a person that has never had difficulty in conceiving a child, or is someone that will never have a child (a man, who also has no wife, no real knowledge of marriage, etc.).

The Church speaks the truth that IVF is always immoral. It is certainly not easy for her to do so, in fact she is roundly condemned for saying so by many powerful people. The Churcvh has more knowledge of marriage than anybody. And the Church includes many who have had trouble conceiving and subscribe fully to her doctrines.

I firmly believe that God gives us the ability to develop such technologies for a reason. I can not, and will not accept the idea that their use is automatically immoral. Can the use of such technologies be immoral? Of course, anything can be utilized for wrong purposes.

Yes indeed, IVF technology is used quite morally in animal husbandry with great benefits for mankind. But use of IVF to interfere with human procreation is always immoral.

Of course I also have a wife that had 5 miscarriages, ended up hospitalized for severe depression after it was determined that she would never be able to carry a child to term. I only wish that there had been some alternative that could have given us a live child. We were also denied adoption of an undamaged child, or of a very young child, because my wife is a paraplegic. We were offered children that were severely emotionally disturbed, such as one 7 year old girl that had set fire to her last 3 foster homes. That was the youngest child that we were ever offered.

It seems the best thing you could do would be to work for reform of the abortion laws so that there is not a severe shortage of adoptive children available to people like you and your wife.

I frankly do not care what some man, who has never had a child or been married, has to say about this subject. That includes Pope John Paul II, who I greatly admire for most of his teachings.

Do you similarly not care what Christ, who has never had a child or been married, has to say about this subject? Whom you presumably greatly admire for “most” of His teachings?

 

[Petergee]

Yes, telling your child they were conceived in a sinful way is immoral. The child is NOT to blame for the parents’ mistakes.

You seem to think that the first statement is equivakent to the second. It is not. The two statements are quite different.

Also, telling a child these things has the potential to mess them up and make them feel that their existence itself is wrong.

A child will be MUCH more messed up if he (as he almost certainly will) finds out from others or even suspects that this may be the case and then wonders if there is something wrong with him. Far bettter for the parents to tell him the truth in a loving supportive way, so that no nagging suspicion, malicious gossip or chance discovery can haunt him in later life.

 

[TommyWommy]

In a way this is a specific case of the question which so many ask today, “how can you tell your kids that doing X is immoral when you yourself did X when you were young?”
Itself a specidfic case of the question nonbelivers often ask “how can you say that X is wrong when you/other Christians do X?”
Of course these questions are groundless. Knowing what is the right thing is dioffrent to always doing the right thing. (cf Romans 7:14-25) And certainly different to having done the wrong thing many years before when one may not yet have realised that it is wrong.

God does not make mistakes. He finds a way of bringing good even out of the most evil things which man does. The case in point is that He creates a unique, good and infinitely valuable human being resulting from a sinful act. “Do not punish a child for the sin of his father” Ezekiel 18:20.

Thanks, that’s helpful. A unique aspect of this question concerns the fact that the wrong means results in the very existence of the child. It’s similar, yet very different, to parents that smoked pot or stole cars or whatever when they were younger.

It is especially unique where IVF or AI are concerned since the child is the specific intention of the wrong means (as opposed to premarital sex or rape, etc.). Then the parents have to find a way to explain, “We did the wrong thing for the purpose of getting you.” It’s a bit harder to explain than saying, “Don’t do drugs because look at how bad it is.” In a way, it seems like saying, “We stole you from God” (even though that’s not technically possible) because some of these parents are doing it when they know the Church teaches against it. The effect on the child is hard to fathom (and unique to each child), and it would seem to require a great deal of finesse and tact to explain it. My parent’s generation never had to deal with such issues. This is largely uncharted territory.

 

[TommyWommy]

The immorality of IVF is not just a Catholic belief and is not just binding on Catholics but on the whole human race. Don’t get bullied into agreeing with the assertion that opposing IVF is just some weird irrational religious taboo with no basis in objective rational moral law available to all mankind.

I think this Catholic is struggling with trying to follow Church teachings as best they can without totally alienating a spouse that is leaning towards Catholicism but having a very difficult time grasping certain tenets of the faith. Additionally, there was not the “luxury” of waiting for the spouse to completely embrace Catholic teachings since the biological clock was running very late and some decision needed to be made one way or the other.

Hence, the reluctant agreement to proceed with IVF under the condition that a limit is placed on the number of eggs fertilized so that any resulting embryos could be emplanted and given the opportunity to run their course (not destroyed or frozen). The idea came from an article by a Protestant minister who wrote that IFV is not just a Catholic issue, and that couples who choose this route need to consider what they are doing and at the very least limit the number of fertilized eggs.

So, what we have here is a Protestant marriage that recently became a Catholic/Protestant marriage where the couple did the best they knew how within the limits of their understanding and informed conscience without trying to “bully” each other. It’s a lot tougher than it looks, and they both know they will have to explain it to their kids some day.

 

[faithfully]

Because it not even remotely possible to TRICK God and steal something from him.

And honestly, I can tell you from experience, this is not an easy situation. I’ve had long conversations with my Priest in an “after the fact” true knowledge situation.

I think you MIGHT find that those Catholics that have done IVF, truly didn’t have a sense of moral sin. Most people who know they are committing a moral sin, in my experience, are not praying to God during the act. And hearing the damning from laymen is of no use what so ever. And hearing from SEVERAL priests that a child is to be created in love, and that IVF can fall into that category (even if, as it turns out they are wrong) does not help. Because there is rarely a more WANTED child expressed in eachothers love and sacrafice. Because many seem to think this is an easy process. The physical pain is off the charts. The sacrafices many.

So, when my children find out. They will be told that mommy and daddy loved them before they ever existed. That yes, it’s true the Church teaches that our style of aquisition is not pleasing to God, because it makes it as though we didn’t trust in God to deliver you to us in his own time. And in hind site, with my judgement not clouded by my deepest desires for something perfectly natural and approved by God I didn’t choose the right path. But that God also saw our pain and desire, and chose to grace us with children. God still saw fit to entrust us with your soul. God knows our heart, and in his compassion he saw that we were in fact trying to do his will, but that we were confused in our approach. That we didn’t trust him. And that hurts him more than anything.

And, honey, I did NOT confess to my preist that I had children against God’s will.Because that is NOT possible. I confessed that in a time of weakness, I did not trust that God would have presented me with you anyway.

It’s kind of the grown up version of throwing a temper tantrum. We’re all human. We all make mistakes. And anyone that tries to make my child feel as though he is some sort of abomination… needs to repent. Because they are committing a sin in questioning God’s Grace… Questioning the validity of God’s gift, as IF God filled a grocery order.

Which is why I would like some people to step back and see how they write about this topic. Your disgust with people is very closely tied to a disgust in God’s graces…

 

[TommyWommy]

Because it not even remotely possible to TRICK God and steal something from him.

And honestly, I can tell you from experience, this is not an easy situation. I’ve had long conversations with my Priest in an “after the fact” true knowledge situation.

I think you MIGHT find that those Catholics that have done IVF, truly didn’t have a sense of moral sin. Most people who know they are committing a moral sin, in my experience, are not praying to God during the act. And hearing the damning from laymen is of no use what so ever. And hearing from SEVERAL priests that a child is to be created in love, and that IVF can fall into that category (even if, as it turns out they are wrong) does not help. Because there is rarely a more WANTED child expressed in eachothers love and sacrafice. Because many seem to think this is an easy process. The physical pain is off the charts. The sacrafices many.

So, when my children find out. They will be told that mommy and daddy loved them before they ever existed. That yes, it’s true the Church teaches that our style of aquisition is not pleasing to God, because it makes it as though we didn’t trust in God to deliver you to us in his own time. And in hind site, with my judgement not clouded by my deepest desires for something perfectly natural and approved by God I didn’t choose the right path. But that God also saw our pain and desire, and chose to grace us with children. God still saw fit to entrust us with your soul. God knows our heart, and in his compassion he saw that we were in fact trying to do his will, but that we were confused in our approach. That we didn’t trust him. And that hurts him more than anything.

And, honey, I did NOT confess to my preist that I had children against God’s will.Because that is NOT possible. I confessed that in a time of weakness, I did not trust that God would have presented me with you anyway.

It’s kind of the grown up version of throwing a temper tantrum. We’re all human. We all make mistakes. And anyone that tries to make my child feel as though he is some sort of abomination… needs to repent. Because they are committing a sin in questioning God’s Grace… Questioning the validity of God’s gift, as IF God filled a grocery order.

Which is why I would like some people to step back and see how they write about this topic. Your disgust with people is very closely tied to a disgust in God’s graces…

Thank you for sharing this. It is helpful to me. We never know how we will handle any given situation until we actually face it. Peter knew this well. “Lord, you know I would never betray you!” Whoops! There’s that cock crowing. What was our Lord’s reaction? Compassion. Forgiveness. Restoration. “Feed my sheep.” Move forward in charity. Be the first pope!

We always need to take care that whatever truth we proclaim has the potential to become the clanging cymbal without charity. We also need to regard any child as God’s gift. He created every child, no matter what the human actions were.

 

[jmcrae]

Ok, I have the same question. My youngest is 8 months old and the result of a mistake with an unknown man(she doesn’t remember, alcohol was involved). He is my boy, there is no question about that. but I am concerned with this question since people talk, and I have 3 older boys. It is only a matter of time before everyone starts asking why Mikey is darker than daddy(so far we have told them that God chooses what color peoples skin is, they are still young). This question is huge, and there isn’t always an easy answer. It seems like many people respond with haste, and do not consider that it just may “bug” the child forever. The Catholic faith is true, I know that(so no responses about the d word). Good thread, I look forward to more posts here. Thank you and God bless.

ccross

One family I know solved this problem by adopting two other multiracial children - outsiders simply assume that all of the darker skinned children in the family are adopted.

 

[shannyk]

So, when my children find out. They will be told that mommy and daddy loved them before they ever existed. That yes, it’s true the Church teaches that our style of aquisition is not pleasing to God, because it makes it as though we didn’t trust in God to deliver you to us in his own time. And in hind site, with my judgement not clouded by my deepest desires for something perfectly natural and approved by God I didn’t choose the right path. But that God also saw our pain and desire, and chose to grace us with children. God still saw fit to entrust us with your soul. God knows our heart, and in his compassion he saw that we were in fact trying to do his will, but that we were confused in our approach. That we didn’t trust him. And that hurts him more than anything.

If I was in your shoes this is pretty much exactly how I’d explain it to my children.

 

[cbatchelder]

I always felt that the sin of the parents does not need to be shared with the children. Teach the children to love God and not stray, and if they do, seek Christ’s mercy in the confessional.

 

[TommyWommy]

I always felt that the sin of the parents does not need to be shared with the children. Teach the children to love God and not stray, and if they do, seek Christ’s mercy in the confessional.

The parents may not wish to share it, but children have a knack for discovering things and asking questions. It may be prudent to be prepared with a response just in case the cat is somehow let out of the bag.

 

[Petergee]

I think this Catholic is struggling with trying to follow Church teachings as best they can without totally alienating a spouse that is leaning towards Catholicism but having a very difficult time grasping certain tenets of the faith. Additionally, there was not the “luxury” of waiting for the spouse to completely embrace Catholic teachings since the biological clock was running very late and some decision needed to be made one way or the other.

Hence, the reluctant agreement to proceed with IVF under the condition that a limit is placed on the number of eggs fertilized so that any resulting embryos could be emplanted and given the opportunity to run their course (not destroyed or frozen). The idea came from an article by a Protestant minister who wrote that IFV is not just a Catholic issue, and that couples who choose this route need to consider what they are doing and at the very least limit the number of fertilized eggs.

So, what we have here is a Protestant marriage that recently became a Catholic/Protestant marriage where the couple did the best they knew how within the limits of their understanding and informed conscience without trying to “bully” each other. It’s a lot tougher than it looks, and they both know they will have to explain it to their kids some day.

Yes, I wasn’t suggesting the couple were bullying each other. I was speaking of being bullied by the powerful people in our society in general who want to relegate concerns about the morality of IVF to “merely” a “religious” belief, which you had seemed to imply it was. And I certainly do not suggest that dealing with such situations is easy. As I said before, knowing what is morally right is easy. Actually doing what is morally right can be very, very tough. Especially when most people you know, and even many of those in authority, are telling you that it’s not immoral at all.

 

[TommyWommy]

Yes, I wasn’t suggesting the couple were bullying each other. I was speaking of being bullied by the powerful people in our society in general who want to relegate concerns about the morality of IVF to “merely” a “religious” belief, which you had seemed to imply it was.

I did?

As I said before, knowing what is morally right is easy. Actually doing what is morally right can be very, very tough. Especially when most people you know, and even many of those in authority, are telling you that it’s not immoral at all.

Actually, I think that knowing what is immoral can sometimes be the hardest part. It may be easy to know what the Church (or other people) says is immoral. But if one has been raised as a Protestant, taught to ignore the Catholic Church, educated to be a critical thinker and draw your own conclusions, medically trained to see procedures like IVF as a “gift,” told by Catholics “just follow your conscience,” and steeped in a relativistic society, it can be very, very, very difficult to know what’s really moral or immoral.

 

[Petergee]

I did?

Yes,

In returning to the Church, the Catholic began to realize the moral implications of IVF while the Protestant just couldn’t understand it. Not wanting to “force” Catholic beliefs on the other

seemed to imply this. Sorry if this implication was unintentional.

Actually, I think that knowing what is immoral can sometimes be the hardest part. It may be easy to know what the Church (or other people) says is immoral. But if one has been raised as a Protestant, taught to ignore the Catholic Church, educated to be a critical thinker and draw your own conclusions, medically trained to see procedures like IVF as a “gift,” told by Catholics “just follow your conscience,” and steeped in a relativistic society, it can be very, very, very difficult to know what’s really moral or immoral.

If one was actually educated to be a critical thinker and draw his own conclusions, he would not be taken in by the propaganda (ahem “medical training”) that insists that IVF is a “gift” and would see through the logical contradictions of moral relativism. But of course much of what today passes as “education to be a critical thinker and to draw your own conclusions” is in fact education to always agree with the teacher, to unquestioningly embrace moral relativism and to automatically and axiomatically assume that the Catholic Church is wrong on every issue except those on which it agrees with the prevailing secularist powers.

Nobody should need the Catholic Church to tell him so in order to know that IVF is immoral. The agnostic Aldous Huxley’s satrical novel Brave New World portrays half a century before IVF became reality , a world with IVF, which horrified people of every religious belief and of none.

 

[TommyWommy]

Nobody should need the Catholic Church to tell him so in order to know that IVF is immoral. The agnostic Aldous Huxley’s satrical novel Brave New World portrays half a century before IVF became reality , a world with IVF, which horrified people of every religious belief and of none.

Whether or not they should they do. Some things that were abhorrent 50 years ago seem normal and acceptable to many these days. It simply isn’t “easy” for them to “see.” And once they do “see” it may take a while for them to accept what they are seeing.

Up until 1930 all Christian denominations said contraception was wrong. Now it seems a majority of Catholics are doing it, even though the Catholic Church (singularly) still says it’s wrong. Some of these people are doing it obstinately, but many just don’t “see” how it’s wrong.

The fact that these moral issues come up over and over again in ethics committees, debates, and Catholic apologist forums is a testimony to the fact that they are not “easy.”

Not everyone grasps moral issues as easily as you.

 

[Petergee]

Tommy, you misunderstand me. I am not suggesting that it is easy in Western countries these days to see the immorality of IVF.

 

[TommyWommy]

Tommy, you misunderstand me. I am not suggesting that it is easy in Western countries these days to see the immorality of IVF.

Ok.

 

[mackk]

Many parents have conceived children through immoral means (IVF, AI, premarital, etc). Some of those parents have repented and are now determined to live a moral, Catholic life. So, how do they teach their children that the way they got here is wrong, but they themselves are beautiful creations of God? How does one teach children that morality is the way to go when an immoral act is the cause of their very existence? How does a parent express regret and remorse for sin while simultaneously celebrating and loving the result of that sin? How does the parent help the child not to feel like a “mistake” while raising them in the Catholic faith?

I’m new here … and i try not to but into stuff because i really am not a catholic yet (i’m still learning) but … neither of my children have “fathers” well they have them but … the oldest one came from a horrible situation … i’ve spent nearly twenty years guarding that secret and i will go to my grave doing everything i can to protect her from EVER EVER having to think that she was ANYTHING but the most perfect gift i have ever been given.
i have to say that any parent who wouldn’t do the same for their child is not a person i could sit in a room with.
//mackk

 

[Petergee]

I’m new here … and i try not to but into stuff because i really am not a catholic yet (i’m still learning) but … neither of my children have “fathers” well they have them but … the oldest one came from a horrible situation … i’ve spent nearly twenty years guarding that secret and i will go to my grave doing everything i can to protect her from EVER EVER having to think that she was ANYTHING but the most perfect gift i have ever been given.
i have to say that any parent who wouldn’t do the same for their child is not a person i could sit in a room with.
//mackk

Yes, nobody here is suggesting you shouldn’t do that. But your children will ask you, if they haven’t already, who their fathers are. or even if they don’t ask because you have implicitly indicated that it is not an acceptable question, they will wonder to themselves, and they may even find out somehow. In fact by not saying anything about their fathers, you are implicitly telling them that their fathers were bad men and/or that they were conceived by bad actions.