Immorally Conceived Children

[jmcrae]

I’m new here … and i try not to but into stuff because i really am not a catholic yet (i’m still learning) but … neither of my children have “fathers” well they have them but … the oldest one came from a horrible situation … i’ve spent nearly twenty years guarding that secret and i will go to my grave doing everything i can to protect her from EVER EVER having to think that she was ANYTHING but the most perfect gift i have ever been given.
i have to say that any parent who wouldn’t do the same for their child is not a person i could sit in a room with.
//mackk

I think you are right to follow your good parenting instincts.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Because it not even remotely possible to TRICK God and steal something from him.

And honestly, I can tell you from experience, this is not an easy situation. I’ve had long conversations with my Priest in an “after the fact” true knowledge situation.

I think you MIGHT find that those Catholics that have done IVF, truly didn’t have a sense of moral sin. Most people who know they are committing a moral sin, in my experience, are not praying to God during the act. And hearing the damning from laymen is of no use what so ever. And hearing from SEVERAL priests that a child is to be created in love, and that IVF can fall into that category (even if, as it turns out they are wrong) does not help. Because there is rarely a more WANTED child expressed in eachothers love and sacrafice. Because many seem to think this is an easy process. The physical pain is off the charts. The sacrafices many.

So, when my children find out. They will be told that mommy and daddy loved them before they ever existed. That yes, it’s true the Church teaches that our style of aquisition is not pleasing to God, because it makes it as though we didn’t trust in God to deliver you to us in his own time. And in hind site, with my judgement not clouded by my deepest desires for something perfectly natural and approved by God I didn’t choose the right path. But that God also saw our pain and desire, and chose to grace us with children. God still saw fit to entrust us with your soul. God knows our heart, and in his compassion he saw that we were in fact trying to do his will, but that we were confused in our approach. That we didn’t trust him. And that hurts him more than anything.

And, honey, I did NOT confess to my preist that I had children against God’s will.Because that is NOT possible. I confessed that in a time of weakness, I did not trust that God would have presented me with you anyway.

It’s kind of the grown up version of throwing a temper tantrum. We’re all human. We all make mistakes. And anyone that tries to make my child feel as though he is some sort of abomination… needs to repent. Because they are committing a sin in questioning God’s Grace… Questioning the validity of God’s gift, as IF God filled a grocery order.

Which is why I would like some people to step back and see how they write about this topic. Your disgust with people is very closely tied to a disgust in God’s graces…

This post brought tears to my eyes. I am in awe of your insight!!

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I agree with you. I suppose there is the chance that a child would discover the fact without the parents telling them, like from a relative or something. “Loose lips sink ships” sort of thing. But you are right…raise them in a moral way.

That is why people need to keep their intimate details to themselves. We are altogether too open and free with what we tell whom. And there are some things you should take to your grave without ever having shared them with another living soul. Well, except your priest.

If a child has entered the world, in whatever fashion, that child has nothing to do with how he or she was created, they just need to live and be loved.

 

[Petergee]

anyone that tries to make my child feel as though he is some sort of abomination… needs to repent. Because they are committing a sin in questioning God’s Grace… Questioning the validity of God’s gift, as IF God filled a grocery order.

Which is why I would like some people to step back and see how they write about this topic. Your disgust with people is very closely tied to a disgust in God’s graces…

I have never seen or heard, here or elsewhere, anyone saying or even implying that a child created through IVF is an abomination, or disgusting. I cannot even recall anyone saying that about the parents.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Many parents have conceived children through immoral means (IVF, AI, premarital, etc). Some of those parents have repented and are now determined to live a moral, Catholic life. So, how do they teach their children that the way they got here is wrong, but they themselves are beautiful creations of God? How does one teach children that morality is the way to go when an immoral act is the cause of their very existence? How does a parent express regret and remorse for sin while simultaneously celebrating and loving the result of that sin? How does the parent help the child not to feel like a “mistake” while raising them in the Catholic faith?

I was under that impression that, according to Catholic doctrine, we (human beings) are all conceived in sin. If that is true, what does it really matter to what degree someone’s conception was sinful?

 

[faithfully]

I have never seen or heard, here or elsewhere, anyone saying or even implying that a child created through IVF is an abomination, or disgusting. I cannot even recall anyone saying that about the parents.

Well, you haven’t been the receiving end then have you? Here, you will hear about selfish people that think they are entitled to a child. As if God is to just fill a grocery list. Infact, just consider the title of this thread… Immorally conceived Children… It’s name calling… I have no idea if the intention is to be hurtfull… But how would you like to hear that you’re an “immorally conceived child?” Word choice isn’t the issue… It’s about being hurtful. With disregard for the human condition.

And if the shoe doesn’t fit, then don’t worry about it… There are plenty of gracious people around here…

 

[TommyWommy]

Infact, just consider the title of this thread… Immorally conceived Children… It’s name calling… I have no idea if the intention is to be hurtfull…

As the OP, I can certainly say that the intention is not to be hurtful, since it pertains to myself and members of my own family in many cases. It is not “name calling.” It is a title that refers to the Catholic Church’s teaching that such means of conceiving children is considered immoral, and that the end does not justify the means. I was simply trying to be susinct in the title for the sake of brevity (rather than a title such as, “What do I say to a child that was conceived in a way that the Church says is immoral in the event that that child questions his/her means of conception?” See how long that title would have been?

Evidently, the title (and the thread) touched a nerve that was unintended. I was only looking for some helpful feedback from others in situations similar to my own, not trying to hurt anyone, especially children. Nothing about the title or the thread was intended to be hurtful, judgemental, insensitive, or anything other than inquisitive. In fact, it was not easy for me to start the thread due to my own personal experience.

I desire to be a faithful Catholic, and to raise my children in the Catholic faith. Hence, I am compelled to teach my children what the Church considers moral/immoral. Children question things, as they should. That’s how they learn. I want to give them good, honest answers when they do, even when it comes to explaining my own immoral behaviors.

 

[Petergee]

Well, you haven’t been the receiving end then have you? Here, you will hear about selfish people that think they are entitled to a child. As if God is to just fill a grocery list. Infact, just consider the title of this thread… Immorally conceived Children… It’s name calling… I have no idea if the intention is to be hurtfull… But how would you like to hear that you’re an “immorally conceived child?” Word choice isn’t the issue… It’s about being hurtful. With disregard for the human condition.

There is a big difference between calling someone “selfish”, “self-entitled”, presumptuous or even immoral, and calling them “disgusting” or “an abomination”. I have never heard or heard of the latter. Word choice is oimportant. Words mean things, and some things (i.e. lies) way more hurtful and false than others,

 

[TommyWommy]

… But how would you like to hear that you’re an “immorally conceived child?”

Exactly!

Now you have reached the heart of the matter, and the very reason I started this thread. Many parents have behaved in ways that the Church considers immoral, and their immoral behavior has resulted in the conception of a child/children. Now, no one has to go around “calling” these children “immorally conceived” in order for these children to “hear” that they have been conceived through immoral means. They can figure that out on their own when they learn what the Church teaches. And if/when they do, they just might approach mom and/or dad with questions about it.

So, what is a parent to say when the child approaches him/her and says, “Hey, Mom/Dad, the Church tells me that what you did to conceive me was immoral. That must mean that I was “immorally conceived.” How should I, as your child, feel about that?”

You see? That is the reason for this thread. It’s not that folks are necessarily going to be hurtful and call these children names. It’s that the children themselves are going to put two and two together and ask heavy existential questions about faith, morals, their parents’ behavior, and their own existence.

Children are smart. No one has to “call” them “immorally conceived” in order for them to “get that message.” It’s not enough for us to simply use sensitive phraseology that skirts the issue or hope that the children won’t find out or ask about it. I want to have good responses for them when they ask. That way, if someone does try to be hurtful, they will have already dealt with the issue in their own hearts. And they won’t go through life conflicted about their very existence.

 

[jmcrae]

Children are smart. No one has to “call” them “immorally conceived” in order for them to “get that message.” It’s not enough for us to simply use sensitive phraseology that skirts the issue or hope that the children won’t find out or ask about it. I want to have good responses for them when they ask. That way, if someone does try to be hurtful, they will have already dealt with the issue in their own hearts. And they won’t go through life conflicted about their very existence.

I liked the answer that said, “God was going to create you anyway. We were in a rush and thought that we had to hurry things along, and in all that rush, we did things that made God really sad. The biggest thing that made God sad was that we did not trust Him like we should have. He forgave us, though, and blessed us with you, anyway. After all, you could not exist, if God did not love you.”

 

[faithfully]

As the OP, I can certainly say that the intention is not to be hurtful, since it pertains to myself and members of my own family in many cases. It is not “name calling.” It is a title that refers to the Catholic Church’s teaching that such means of conceiving children is considered immoral, and that the end does not justify the means. I was simply trying to be susinct in the title for the sake of brevity (rather than a title such as, “What do I say to a child that was conceived in a way that the Church says is immoral in the event that that child questions his/her means of conception?” See how long that title would have been?

Evidently, the title (and the thread) touched a nerve that was unintended. I was only looking for some helpful feedback from others in situations similar to my own, not trying to hurt anyone, especially children. Nothing about the title or the thread was intended to be hurtful, judgemental, insensitive, or anything other than inquisitive. In fact, it was not easy for me to start the thread due to my own personal experience.

I desire to be a faithful Catholic, and to raise my children in the Catholic faith. Hence, I am compelled to teach my children what the Church considers moral/immoral. Children question things, as they should. That’s how they learn. I want to give them good, honest answers when they do, even when it comes to explaining my own immoral behaviors.

Actually, I’m aware of that… I was using it as an example. Because , it WAS obvious that you were looking into getting some answers. And that you’re not looking to be judgemental. My ONLY point is that some people have a way of sounding cruel whether they mean to or not. And my statement was not wholly directed at those within the this thread. And so, I stand by the horrifying things that people have said. And it’s not even with regard to just this topic. I’ve had friends with children with obvious defects, and perfect strangers start asking why they didn’t find out something was wrong and abort the child (IN FRONT OF THE CHILD even)… Or “did you take drugs?”

And so, Petergee, you can go on and on about the big differences, and continue to try to school me. I KNOW how I feel when something is said. Perhaps it’s because I’ve dealt with one too many passive aggressive people that like to say things to be hurtful… but “you took them wrong” when they are called on it… Well… Yeah, nerve hit… And since I HAVE worked this out between myself and a priest, and God to the best of my ability, and with my whole heart… I don’t need to be hearing how selfish people like me are… surely, mine is NOT the only sin out there.

And so maybe I should say… UNLESS a person in this situation engages you in any way about the topic. Your opinions of them… with whatever words you may use ARE hurtful. Intended or not. Should they open up to you about the topic, you DO have an obligation to share what our faith says. Perhaps practice a compassionate answer. One that doesn’t sound the slightest judgemental… Because the tears are going to start flowing… This is one of the hardest things a couple will ever face.

Jmcrae… Thanks… that answer was mine. It def. took some soul searching to craft this sort of message… Because as you can see, IT WILL come up! And I’m prepared. I truly have been blessed with some amazing little people… And I hope that I can bring them up in the faith as strongly as any other!

 

[Petergee]

And so, Petergee, you can go on and on about the big differences, and continue to try to school me.

Only in the same sense that you are “trying to school” me and everyone else here. I am giving my honest opinions, in I hope a charitable way. You are free to reject or agree with my opinions.

I KNOW how I feel when something is said. Perhaps it’s because I’ve dealt with one too many passive aggressive people that like to say things to be hurtful… but “you took them wrong” when they are called on it… Well… Yeah, nerve hit…

Your implication that I and others here are deliberately trying to hurt others by their words, is itself offensive and uncharitable.

And since I HAVE worked this out between myself and a priest, and God to the best of my ability, and with my whole heart… I don’t need to be hearing how selfish people like me are… surely, mine is NOT the only sin out there.

I never saw anybody claim that it is. We** all **do selfish things. I am constantly reading on CAF people saying how selfish are the sins which I have committed. I don’t give them a lecture and tell them that they are evil people for unintentionally hurting me by criticising the things which I feel guilty about having done.

 

[Pitcharan]

Many parents have conceived children through immoral means (IVF, AI, premarital, etc). Some of those parents have repented and are now determined to live a moral, Catholic life. So, how do they teach their children that the way they got here is wrong, but they themselves are beautiful creations of God? How does one teach children that morality is the way to go when an immoral act is the cause of their very existence? How does a parent express regret and remorse for sin while simultaneously celebrating and loving the result of that sin? How does the parent help the child not to feel like a “mistake” while raising them in the Catholic faith?

Once a person has repented his/her sin from the heart and reconciled with God through the sacrament of Reconciliation, then the sin is washed away and remembered no more. Therefore a child born of an immoral act that has been absolved by God, need not feel ashamed any more. This apart all pre-birth stains are completely washed away through the sacrament of Baptism. The child has been recreated and need not feel ashamed of anything of the past, be it original sin or the sin that conceived the child. To reassure the child further, among other things, the child may be taught, that our Lord Himself was a descendent of Judah’s son Perez, who was born of the immoral union of Judah and Tamar.

 

[faithfully]

Only in the same sense that you are “trying to school” me and everyone else here. I am giving my honest opinions, in I hope a charitable way. You are free to reject or agree with my opinions. Your implication that I and others here are deliberately trying to hurt others by their words, is itself offensive and uncharitable. I never saw anybody claim that it is. We** all **do selfish things. I am constantly reading on CAF people saying how selfish are the sins which I have committed. I don’t give them a lecture and tell them that they are evil people for unintentionally hurting me by criticising the things which I feel guilty about having done.

Sorry… I’m not trying to say that anyone is being deliberate in hurting others. I did say that I’ve dealt with people who have been deliberate… and that just talking of this can hit a nerve… And my only purpose at the end of my original post was that anyone that thinks so horrify of the situation… perhaps reconsider what they’re saying… If you’re not anyone that thinks that, then you don’t fit into that category. And it does not apply.

You never saw it HERE! I agree, I did not see it here either. I did not see a written word that suggested that. I’m sorry for speaking on a grander scope. It has caused confusion and delay (to borrow a phrase). It was an afterthought. To my answer to the original post…

So now I said “evil”… Please point me to that. I can’t find it. I know, I did use “abomination, and disgusting”… and you call me on that no one here said that… But then you refer to me, specifically, saying that I’m telling people that they are evil. Or are you equating “hurtful” with “evil”… Did you infer that? If you did, I’m sorry. I certainly could not assume you or anyone here to be evil. No one has given me cause to think so. But, I guess now you see how easy it is to infer from the words actually spoken. Perhaps we both are bit to quick to read between the lines. I can agree that I am. Again, sorry!

SO, FOR THE RECORD… I concur that no one here on the this thread used the word abomination or disgusting towards the children they have heard of created through IVF. I would like it understood that those ARE WORDS I’ve heard. But NOT here at CAF. I appologize if anyone here feels hurt by my offering of my personal experience of this exact situation.

And finally, I don’t feel guilty about the IVF. I did feel badly that I had a warped interpretation of things when everything got started. And I felt bad that I hurt God regardless of my intentions. And I’ve appologized for that, I’ve been forgiven for that. And further I’m to understand that to assume that somehow I’m not forgiven of that or that I need to feel guilty about this would in and of itself also be wrong and hurtful to God. As if I don’t believe his promise to allow me to repent, and be forgiven. In the end, I have two gorgeous little guys. I can only express immense grattitude to God for trusting in me their little souls. And I pray that I can teach them well enough in the faith that they are pleasing to the Lord.

OP… Not sure what position you are in with regard to your family. The fact is, you WILL hear some grossly negative words on this. And my final thought still stands. But maybe I can phrase it better??? SHOULD YOU HEAR someone say something really awful to the child or about the child, whether here on CAF, in the grocery store, or just randomly on the street, always have in your back pocket that EVERY child is a gift from God. And that anyone that questions that, regardless of method to have the child, is in fact questioning GOD’s grace to give that gift. And please excuse my lack of grace in my original post. I’m lucky to form complete thoughts now adays with very loud 5 year olds running around.

 

[Petergee]

So now I said “evil”… Please point me to that. I can’t find it. I know, I did use “abomination, and disgusting”… and you call me on that no one here said that… But then you refer to me, specifically, saying that I’m telling people that they are evil. Or are you equating “hurtful” with “evil”… Did you infer that? If you did, I’m sorry. I certainly could not assume you or anyone here to be evil. No one has given me cause to think so. But, I guess now you see how easy it is to infer from the words actually spoken. Perhaps we both are bit to quick to read between the lines. I can agree that I am. Again, sorry!

Sorry for the hyperbole, I concede that you did not say that any person is evil.

And finally, I don’t feel guilty about the IVF. I did feel badly that I had a warped interpretation of things when everything got started. And I felt bad that I hurt God regardless of my intentions. And I’ve appologized for that, I’ve been forgiven for that. And further I’m to understand that to assume that somehow I’m not forgiven of that or that I need to feel guilty about this would in and of itself also be wrong and hurtful to God. As if I don’t believe his promise to allow me to repent, and be forgiven.

Maybe you think this is a technicality, but it is NECESSARY for a sinner to first feel and admit guilt for his sin, in ordert for him to then repent, apologise for it, confess it and receive forgiveness for it. Yes God has infinite capacity to forgive, but He gave us free will so that in order to be forgiven by Him WE have to be truly sorry for our sin and ask for His forgiveness.

 

[faithfully]

Sorry for the hyperbole, I concede that you did not say that any person is evil.
Maybe you think this is a technicality, but it is NECESSARY for a sinner to first feel and admit guilt for his sin, in ordert for him to then repent, apologise for it, confess it and receive forgiveness for it. Yes God has infinite capacity to forgive, but He gave us free will so that in order to be forgiven by Him WE have to be truly sorry for our sin and ask for His forgiveness.

At this juncture, I’m going to assume you are just stating a fact for the benefit of others. As, what you state is accurate. And that you don’t presume to know my personal situation…

 

[Petergee]

At this juncture, I’m going to assume you are just stating a fact for the benefit of others. As, what you state is accurate. And that you don’t presume to know my personal situation…

I don’t presume anything. I only know what you told us, that you don’t feel guilty for having used IVF.

 

[faithfully]

Please point me to anything within Catholic Teaching that says you should continue to feel guilt after you have confessed, and been forgiven. I mean, if I murdered someone, destroyed a family by any means, I could see having a hard time letting go.

I’m sure you’re not suggesting that I should hang my head in guilt and not recognize that I have infact been blessed with Children by the Grace of God. That after confessing with a whole heart to all offense to God… That I’m still to presume, that I have not been forgiven.

Maybe I’m just not getting what your point is… Which is hard with one liners.

Regardless, it’s not to my benefit to continue in this conversation. And I think I’ve reached the maximum benefit I might have to offer others. I’ve done what I can to share with others who might find themselves contemplating infertility treatments or how to deal with the fact they’ve alreayd been had. However, I’m not interested in getting into an arguement about my personal situation. Or having every little word I write analyzed for the purpose of creating some form of debate.

Regards,

 

[Petergee]

OK, I apologise for apparently misunderstanding you. You don’t feel guilt now you’ve been forgiven, that’s great and perfectly correct. I had thought you were saying that you had never felt guilty about having used IVF. I assure you I wasn’t trying to nitpick or overanalyse your comments. God bless and keep you.

 

[atara]

Oh wow -
I did not know this!!!
So, conception in a marriage bed is the only place it’s okay to conceive.
So I guess surrogacy is really bad…