Immorally Conceived Children

[Petergee]

Oh wow -
I did not know this!!!
So, conception in a marriage bed is the only place it’s okay to conceive.
So I guess surrogacy is really bad…

Yes but only if you mean “marriage bed” in a figurative sense. As long as they’re married, they don’t have to be in a bed.

I’m not picking on you personally, but it’s very sad that nobody ever taught you during or after the process of becoming a Catholic that the Church teaches that IVF and surrogacy are immoral. If you don’t have a copy of a good Catholic catechism, please buy one - I’m afraid you have to teach yourself the Catholic faith since those who were supposed to teach you apparently didn’t do a very thorough job of it.

 

[atara]

Yes but only if you mean “marriage bed” in a figurative sense. As long as they’re married, they don’t have to be in a bed.

I’m not picking on you personally, but it’s very sad that nobody ever taught you during or after the process of becoming a Catholic that the Church teaches that IVF and surrogacy are immoral. If you don’t have a copy of a good Catholic catechism, please buy one - I’m afraid you have to teach yourself the Catholic faith since those who were supposed to teach you apparently didn’t do a very thorough job of it.

Hi Peter -
After I was confirmed a Catholic, I just felt really uneducated about many things. I just joined a bible study at our Catholic Church and this has been a great resource. There are many older, wiser Catholics in the group.

 

[Petergee]

Hi Peter -
After I was confirmed a Catholic, I just felt really uneducated about many things. I just joined a bible study at our Catholic Church and this has been a great resource. There are many older, wiser Catholics in the group.

:thumbsup:That’s great. A note of caution though - there are some Catholics, including some in their old age and who are otherwise very wise, and even some who have “official” jobs in parishes, who will tell you that certain solid Catholic doctrines which are non-negotiable for a Catholic are amorphous or doubtful or “up for discussion” or “up the individual’s conscience”. The immorality of IVF and contraception are the most frequent doctrines cited in this respect. These people are mistaken and often mischievous. Catholicism is not a matter of “choose only those doctrines that appeal to you and discard the rest”. Being a Catholic means believing and assenting to ALL that the Church teaches.

 

[faithfully]

OK, I apologise for apparently misunderstanding you. You don’t feel guilt now you’ve been forgiven, that’s great and perfectly correct. I had thought you were saying that you had never felt guilty about having used IVF. I assure you I wasn’t trying to nitpick or overanalyse your comments. God bless and keep you.

Thank you… and may God Bless you and yours!

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

The kid is entitled to know about any genetic issues or health reasons, for her own health, for example, if the kid’s genetic parentage is not what he assumes it to be. But telling a kid he was born before his parents were married seems pointless at best and potentially hurtful to a child. An adult will probably figure it out, at which time its not relevant anyway.

 

[atara]

Is any one way worse than other, or are they all the same?

 

[jmcrae]

Is any one way worse than other, or are they all the same?

I suppose there may be cooler and hotter regions of Hell - but any one of these activities will land you somewhere in Hell, since all of them are mortal sins - and I hear it’s not all that pleasant, even if you happen to end up in a cooler region of it. Not to mention the various earthly consequences, which I’m sure you can imagine for yourself - in some cases, if the same DNA is used several times over for several different women, there is the potential for the children to marry their biological siblings, unknowingly, and in other cases, there might be genetic defects that cause various diseases in the child, etc.

Best to avoid these things altogether, and do things God’s way, in the first place.

 

[cjforJesus]

It does not matter if a child was “immorally conceived” as nothing happens but by the will of God. All is for a purpose though in our human minds we cannot fathom all the reasons.

It would be unproductive to discuss in detail the circumstances of a child’s conception.It is more crucial to know they are loved, and worthy creations of a loving Creator.

Children come through us yet are not for us, but for the ultimate glory of God.

 

[centurionguard]

I am unaware of any necessity to explain to any child “that how he got here was wrong” or why he needs to know “how he got here” at all. Explain the normal means of human reproduction in the context of teaching Christian morality and don’t go into cases. When the child asks a direct question, answer directly. Mom how come my birthday is 4 months after your wedding date? Because we did not follow God’s plan to marry first and then have children, but even though we did wrong and God has forgiven us, he chose to bless us with the gift of you. Use it as a teaching moment on how Christ makes all things new and turns all things to good. Kids don’t need or ask for nearly as much detail as you think. I am in a time warp because my generation did not discuss the how to and how we did of reproduction in casual conversation with casual acquaintances, in what seems to be dinner table chat these days. Why on earth should I know anything about how your child was conceived any more than you, if you are not my doctor or husband, need to know anything whatever about my own fertility history? I think it would be a fine thing if we went back to teaching children that some things are private and questions and discussions of them are out of order.

puzzleannie wrote:

I am unaware of any necessity to explain to any child “that how he got here was wrong” or why he needs to know “how he got here” at all.

Hmm; I would have thought the necessity of outright truth should be forthcoming towards the child or adolescent if they are the one seeking an honest answers.
One does not cover up a sinful act of a parent’s poor choice of sexual impropriety whether married or living in common-law or in whatever way how a child came to be born illegitimately out of wedlock or through alternative means of I.V.F. which is morally wrong.

I knew a Catholic woman friend who chose to keep her bastard child as a result of rape.
There left little doubt in my eyes that she cherished and loved the child dearly. When her daughter was fourteen she asked her mother outright how she came to be due to her suspicion that her mother had always lied saying that her real father died shortly after the daughter was born.

I can certainly understand the safe-guard of mother wanting to save her daughter from any heartache coming to realization that in truth she was not only born fatherless but the fact she was also conceived by a rapist.

Eventually; through unrelenting pressuring of her daughter the mother told her the truth about how she came to be through a rapist and adding that despite her great love for her daughter it left a resurgence of painful memories for both the mother and her daughter.

Regrettably; later the daughter grew angry, not at her loving mother but at God for allowing her to be born from the seed of a rapist. It leaves little doubt as to the reason why mothers or parents in similar instances (“in this thread”) would want to hide the reasons behind such stark truths from their children who are born illegitimately.

Peace
Chris

 

[JaneGrey]

puzzleannie wrote:

Hmm; I would have thought the necessity of outright truth should be forthcoming towards the child or adolescent if they are the one seeking an honest answers.
One does not cover up a sinful act of a parent’s poor choice of sexual impropriety whether married or living in common-law or in whatever way how a child came to be born illegitimately out of wedlock or through alternative means of I.V.F. which is morally wrong.
**
I knew a Catholic woman friend who chose to keep her bastard child as a result of rape**.
There left little doubt in my eyes that she cherished and loved the child dearly. When her daughter was fourteen she asked her mother outright how she came to be due to her suspicion that her mother had always lied saying that her real father died shortly after the daughter was born.

I can certainly understand the safe-guard of mother wanting to save her daughter from any heartache coming to realization that in truth she was not only born fatherless but the fact she was also conceived by a rapist.

Eventually; through unrelenting pressuring of her daughter the mother told her the truth about how she came to be through a rapist and adding that despite her great love for her daughter it left a resurgence of painful memories for both the mother and her daughter.

Regrettably; later the daughter grew angry, not at her loving mother but at God for allowing her to be born from the seed of a rapist. It leaves little doubt as to the reason why mothers or parents in similar instances (“in this thread”) would want to hide the reasons behind such stark truths from their children who are born illegitimately.

Peace
Chris

Is it really necessary to use that term? My parents never married for various reasons, but none of my very Catholic family ever used that term on me.

Saying that, I personally think my parents made a bit of a mistake by not telling me that they never married. I found out on my own, in not a very nice way. Meanwhile I was living in a society where I would frequently come across people (besides my own family) would not hesitate to throw around disparaging words and comments about unwed mothers and so-called ‘illegitimate’ children.

I dont think I even like the phrase ‘immorally conceived child’ either. I know the Church’s teachings on these things, but there was a very good reason why I was born in the circumstances I was and at the same time it was still God’s will that I be born.

Like adoption, dont let the child find out on their own.

 

[NicoleElizabeth]

How or why children were conceived is no one’s business. I had my daughter when I was 18 and I wasn’t married. I learned from my mistakes and returned to my faith and became a very devout Catholic and I plan on raising her that way. She may wonder later on why I’m not married and she doesn’t have a father in her life, and if she actually asks, I will explain honestly and tell her how she was my gift from God. Our priest didn’t care or even question it when I had her baptised. And if people are using scientific advancements to have children, they shouldn’t need to hide it because of their faith. If anyone’s read Dan Brown’s Angels and Demons, then they will know sometimes artificial means of getting pregnant can also be a way of being completely devout.

So I think if a child asks, tell them honestly and explain how your faith fits in, but it just seems kind of disrespectful to a child to say “hey God frowns upon the way you were born”

 

[TheRealJuliane]

How or why children were conceived is no one’s business. I had my daughter when I was 18 and I wasn’t married. I learned from my mistakes and returned to my faith and became a very devout Catholic and I plan on raising her that way. She may wonder later on why I’m not married and she doesn’t have a father in her life, and if she actually asks, I will explain honestly and tell her how she was my gift from God. Our priest didn’t care or even question it when I had her baptised. And if people are using scientific advancements to have children, they shouldn’t need to hide it because of their faith. If anyone’s read Dan Brown’s Angels and Demons, then they will know sometimes artificial means of getting pregnant can also be a way of being completely devout.

So I think if a child asks, tell them honestly and explain how your faith fits in, but it just seems kind of disrespectful to a child to say “hey God frowns upon the way you were born”

You claim to be Catholic and yet you think that how or why children are conceived is “no one’s business?” I guess you leave GOD out of that business too, then. Because He most certainly set things up so that we, His children, would create more of His children through sexual intercourse between a man and a woman, a married couple. The Church has forbidden the use of artificial birth control as well as technologies such as artificial insemination, or embryo creation, because these things go directly against the word of God.

I will pray that you repent of your sins and truly return to the Church.

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

You claim to be Catholic and yet you think that how or why children are conceived is “no one’s business?” I guess you leave GOD out of that business too, then. Because He most certainly set things up so that we, His children, would create more of His children through sexual intercourse between a man and a woman, a married couple. The Church has forbidden the use of artificial birth control as well as technologies such as artificial insemination, or embryo creation, because these things go directly against the word of God.

I will pray that you repent of your sins and truly return to the Church.

The poster didn’t say it was not God’s business. In fact, she describes he child as a “gift from God.” And her child is.

She also describes herself as a devout Catholic. Catholic charity demands we take her at her word on this; we’re taught to assume the best of others. To tell her that you hope she “truly returns to the Church” and repents says you know more about her situation than she gives in her post. That’s unkind.

And ultimatey she is correct - how an individual child got here is no concern of ours. Naturally conceived, unnaturally conceived, or soething in between - that’s for the parents and priests and theologians to hash out. Not us. All we need concern ourselves with is seeing Christ in the child.

Luna

 

[EasterJoy]

I suppose there may be cooler and hotter regions of Hell - but any one of these activities will land you somewhere in Hell, since all of them are mortal sins…(underline mine: EasterJoy)

That should read “may”, not “will”.

You can say what sins are of sufficient seriousness to be mortal sins, but you cannot say that a certain action will certainly land you in Hell, since comprehension of the gravity of the sin, consent that sufficiently free of compulsion, and a subsequent refusal to repent (which would include the serious sin of refusing to repent based on one’s presumption concerning God’s forgiveness) must also be present before one spends eternity in Hell.

Because some people will comprehend the gravity of one sin much more clearly than another, it stands to reason that they are in far more danger when they choose the sin that they most clearly understand as a serious violation of the just demands of justice and the love of God, or which they had the greatest ability to avoid. These are things that we might be able to discern in ourselves, if we take the trouble to be honest–which is a serious obligation–but only God can read these things in another person.

IOW, some people will do these things and not end up in Hell at all.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

You claim to be Catholic and yet you think that how or why children are conceived is “no one’s business?” I guess you leave GOD out of that business too, then. Because He most certainly set things up so that we, His children, would create more of His children through sexual intercourse between a man and a woman, a married couple. The Church has forbidden the use of artificial birth control as well as technologies such as artificial insemination, or embryo creation, because these things go directly against the word of God.

I will pray that you repent of your sins and truly return to the Church.

What an unkind thing to say! How would you even know that she hasn’t repented and returned to the church? Must she regret her child and feel that she shouldn’t have been born to do so?

And she’s right, it is no one’s business how a child was conceived. That is between parents, doctors, and if they are religious, god. Once a child is here it deserves to be loved and considered a blessing, regardless of its parents mistakes.

 

[EasterJoy]

If anyone’s read Dan Brown’s Angels and Demons, then they will know sometimes artificial means of getting pregnant can also be a way of being completely devout.

There are no “wrong persons” in the world–in the geneology of the Lord given in Matthew’s Gospel, there is a reason Tamar is specifically mentioned, as her sons Perez and Zerah were the sons of Tamar’s father-in-law, Judah-- but heaven forbid that anyone start using Dan Brown’s novels as moral guides. Those books obviously weren’t written to be moral guides; they were written to be fantasies, to be entertainment, or at most to be windows into the thoughts about religion that are flying around the societies of the world. They raise questions, yes, but they don’t give answers…and if they do, again, Heaven forbid that Catholics believe what they’re teaching is some sort of moral compass.

“Faith does not protect you. Medicine and airbags… Those are the things that protect you. God does not protect you. Intelligence protects you. Enlightenment. Put your faith in something with tangible results. How long has it been since someone walked on water? Modern miracles belong to science… Computers, vaccines, space stations… Even the devine miracle of creation. Matter from nothing… In a lab. Who needs God? No! Science is God!” --from Angels and Demons

"Medicine, electronic communications, space travel, genetic manipulation . . . these are the miracles about which we now tell our children. These are the miracles we herald as proof that science will bring us the answers. The ancient stories of immaculate conceptions, burning bushes, and parting seas are no longer relevant. God has become obsolete. Science has won the battle.” --from Angels and Demons

 

[jmcrae]

That should read “may”, not “will”.

You can say what sins are of sufficient seriousness to be mortal sins, but you cannot say that a certain action will certainly land you in Hell, since comprehension of the gravity of the sin, consent that sufficiently free of compulsion, and a subsequent refusal to repent (which would include the serious sin of refusing to repent based on one’s presumption concerning God’s forgiveness) must also be present before one spends eternity in Hell.

Because some people will comprehend the gravity of one sin much more clearly than another, it stands to reason that they are in far more danger when they choose the sin that they most clearly understand as a serious violation of the just demands of justice and the love of God, or which they had the greatest ability to avoid. These are things that we might be able to discern in ourselves, if we take the trouble to be honest–which is a serious obligation–but only God can read these things in another person.

IOW, some people will do these things and not end up in Hell at all.

There is a vanishingly small chance that someone might not go to Hell if they do these things. However, I think it’s important to speak in plain language and tell people what the overwhelmingly most likely outcome of their behaviour is.

If you touch a hot stove with your bare hand, there is a small chance that you might not be burned, but I don’t think we should focus on that small chance of not being burned when we see someone about to put their hand on the hot stove - and I don’t think it helps them realize the urgency of the situation, if we tell them “Oh, you might possibly get burned if you put your hand there - but there again, you might not.” You have to react as if they were actually about to be burned (because the highest probability is that they will be), if they are to fully understand what you are telling them, and react quickly enough to avoid being burned.

 

[AthenaC]

You claim to be Catholic and yet you think that how or why children are conceived is “no one’s business?” I guess you leave GOD out of that business too, then.

What an unkind thing to say! How would you even know that she hasn’t repented and returned to the church?

Normally I would totally jump all over this, but part of NicoleElizabeth’s post is deeply incompatible with Catholicism:

If anyone’s read Dan Brown’s Angels and Demons, then they will know sometimes artificial means of getting pregnant can also be a way of being completely devout.

This is the type of statement that any Catholic over the age of 12 should really know enough not to make. (We can start a mini-digression over this book if anyone likes, but I am sure the topic has been done to death here on the forums.) So while TheRealJulianne’s phrasing may not have been the most charitable (“You claim to be Catholic, but …”), I can’t argue with the underlying concept.

 

[AthenaC]

… but heaven forbid that anyone start using Dan Brown’s novels as moral guides. Those books obviously weren’t written to be moral guides; they were written to be fantasies, to be entertainment, or at most to be windows into the thoughts about religion that are flying around the societies of the world. They raise questions, yes, but they don’t give answers…and if they do, again, Heaven forbid that Catholics believe what they’re teaching is some sort of moral compass.

“Faith does not protect you. Medicine and airbags… Those are the things that protect you. God does not protect you. Intelligence protects you. Enlightenment. Put your faith in something with tangible results. How long has it been since someone walked on water? Modern miracles belong to science… Computers, vaccines, space stations… Even the devine miracle of creation. Matter from nothing… In a lab. Who needs God? No! Science is God!” --from Angels and Demons

"Medicine, electronic communications, space travel, genetic manipulation . . . these are the miracles about which we now tell our children. These are the miracles we herald as proof that science will bring us the answers. The ancient stories of immaculate conceptions, burning bushes, and parting seas are no longer relevant. God has become obsolete. Science has won the battle.” --from Angels and Demons

Those quotes from Angels and Demons are from the character who is an atheist and who has devoted his life to science. On top of this, he has some serious issues for which he blames God and the Church. Those quotes above are perfectly consistent with the character speaking them and should not be interpreted as the opinion of the author himself.

However, your larger point about using Dan Brown’s novels for ANYTHING other than entertainment is spot-on. I cringe at some points because he presents some things in such a way as to easily mislead anyone not well-catechized. My (agnostic) husband isn’t bothered, because he assumes every other Catholic (or non-Catholic) knows as much as I do (or he does) and won’t be misled.

In all fairness, though SPOILER ALERT it’s worth pointing out that in the end of the book Angels and Demons, it is the strict adherence to the man-made rules of the Church in a particular circumstance that was a crucial point in allowing our heroes to save the day. So it’s not 100% bad.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Normally I would totally jump all over this, but part of NicoleElizabeth’s post is deeply incompatible with Catholicism:

This is the type of statement that any Catholic over the age of 12 should really know enough not to make. (We can start a mini-digression over this book if anyone likes, but I am sure the topic has been done to death here on the forums.) So while TheRealJulianne’s phrasing may not have been the most charitable (“You claim to be Catholic, but …”), I can’t argue with the underlying concept.

Thank you for the back-up. I realize my reaction wasn’t the most charitable but what I got from that post was a belligerence akin to “The Church can’t tell me what to do and it’s no one’s business how any child is conceived.” Oh, yes it IS the Church’s business, because God is the franchise-holder, and God says Thou Shalt Not create children from artificial technology, or out of wedlock, etc. We go astray, and no, of course it’s not the child’s fault. It’s the parents, 100% of the time. The poster said “I learned from my mistakes” and I suppose one could interpret that as repentance, although that word wasn’t used. I REPENT deeply of my own mistakes, and do not defend anything I did while I was away from the Church. Nothing. It was total failure. But I do not have a child born of those indiscretions, either. If I did, it would hard to be ashamed yet have a beautiful child because of my failures.