M
Montie_Claunch
Guest
I know that Seventh Day Adventist Don’t beleive in the Immortality of the soul. Does anyone know of anything on this subject (giving both sides)? Thanks and God bless.
- Status
T
thistle
Guest
Not sure what you mean by both sides. The soul is immortal. There is only one side.
Theology for Beginners by F.J. Sheed is a good book to read on this.
M
Montie_Claunch
Guest
Code:
When I say both sides, I mean both sides of the Argument. I am sure that the opposing side appeals to something. I would just like to have something prepared for when they give me the "Well Scripture says...". Sorry if I sounded misleading.
T
thistle
Guest
That’s okay. I should have realised what you meant anyway.
The book is really excellent.
D
Daniel_Marsh
Guest
Two Views of Hell: A Biblical & Theological Dialogue (Paperback)
by Edward William Fudge, **Robert A. Peterson **
Shades of Sheol: Death and Afterlife in the Old Testament (Paperback) by Philip S. Johnston
Four Views on Hell (Paperback) by John F. Walvoord (Contributor), Zachary J. Hayes (Contributor), Clark H. Pinnock (Contributor), William Crockett (Editor), Stanley N. Gundry (Series Editor) *** there is a catholic author in this one ****
Hell on Trial: The Case for Eternal Punishment (Paperback)
by **Robert A. Peterson **
by Edward William Fudge, **Robert A. Peterson **
Shades of Sheol: Death and Afterlife in the Old Testament (Paperback) by Philip S. Johnston
Four Views on Hell (Paperback) by John F. Walvoord (Contributor), Zachary J. Hayes (Contributor), Clark H. Pinnock (Contributor), William Crockett (Editor), Stanley N. Gundry (Series Editor) *** there is a catholic author in this one ****
Hell on Trial: The Case for Eternal Punishment (Paperback)
by **Robert A. Peterson **
R
rstrats
Guest
thistle,
re: “Not sure what you mean by both sides. The soul is immortal. “
Although occurring hundreds of times in the Old and New Testaments, in no case is “soul” ever associated with the words “immortal”, immortality", “eternal”, “undying”, “incorruptible”, and like terms implying life without end. 1
Corinthians 15:53 says that a person is not inherently immortal, but rather has to put on immortality.
re: “Not sure what you mean by both sides. The soul is immortal. “
Although occurring hundreds of times in the Old and New Testaments, in no case is “soul” ever associated with the words “immortal”, immortality", “eternal”, “undying”, “incorruptible”, and like terms implying life without end. 1
Corinthians 15:53 says that a person is not inherently immortal, but rather has to put on immortality.
G
Gilbert_Keith
Guest
rstrats
Although occurring hundreds of times in the Old and New Testaments, in no case is “soul” ever associated with the words “immortal”, immortality", “eternal”, "undying", “incorruptible”, and like terms implying life without end.
Then what did Jesus mean when he said to the Good Thief, “This day you will be with me in Paradise.”?
Although occurring hundreds of times in the Old and New Testaments, in no case is “soul” ever associated with the words “immortal”, immortality", “eternal”, "undying", “incorruptible”, and like terms implying life without end.
Then what did Jesus mean when he said to the Good Thief, “This day you will be with me in Paradise.”?
S
servus
Guest
We can always trust the translators of the Scripture to guide us with thier own interpretation of a particular text. In the original Greek, there were no commas. When the translators placed the comma in this text, they could just have easily placed it after “today” making the statement of Christ take place on that day, but the entrance of the thief into heaven a future event.
“Verily I say unto you, today you will be with me in paradise”
“Verily I say unto you today, you will be with me in paradise”
Jesus says to Mary on the day of the ressurection that He “has not yet ascended into heaven, but I go to your Father, and My Father, and to your God, and to My God”
Jesus himself did not ascend until after the ressurection (days later) after he said to the thief “today you will be with me in paradise”.
Placing the comma after today would have been a better translation.
D
diarmait
Guest
Aristotle, that great Catholic theologian, argues that the intellective soul must be immortal, since it is immaterial and always in act.
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
Luke 23, 42-43
I once quoted this to a 7th Day Adventist, and he went into a long spiel about how “paradise” is a Persian word, meaning a hunting park.
My reply was, “So your church thinks Jesus meant, ‘Hay, Y’all, how’s about when the crucifyin’s over we go out to my camp and see can we shoot us a deer?’”
Clearly, Jesus meant the man’s soul, not his body would go to heaven and be there that very day.
I once quoted this to a 7th Day Adventist, and he went into a long spiel about how “paradise” is a Persian word, meaning a hunting park.
My reply was, “So your church thinks Jesus meant, ‘Hay, Y’all, how’s about when the crucifyin’s over we go out to my camp and see can we shoot us a deer?’”
D
Daniel_Marsh
Guest
Proverbs 12:28
In the way of righteousness there is life; along that path is immortality.
Romans 1:23
and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Romans 2:7
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
1 Corinthians 15:53
For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
1 Corinthians 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Timothy 6:16
**who alone is immortal **and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
2 Timothy 1:10
but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
Expect a conditionalist to quote I Tim 6:15-16 which says only God is immortal. You do not need to prove that our soul is immortal. You only need to demonstrate that our soul survives physical death.
Death is defined in James 2:26 simply as seperation of body and soul. In Rev 6, people, souls are praying in heaven. In Isaiah 14 the dead raise up to greet a king who enters the grave. Jesus in Firstf Peter went to both sides of the grave to preach to the spirits there. I Peter 4:6 I think. and is it I peter 3:19 too? In Eph 4, we are told that Jesus led people to heaven from the grave. Paul expected to be with Christ when he died. We are told that the saints will return with Jesus from heaven.
Use I Cor 15:53-54 to prove that the wicked will have immortal bodies at their resurrection. This makes “eternal punishment” of Matthew 25:46 possible.
Play on the fact that we are given “eternal” life after the judgement Matthew 25:46.
In the way of righteousness there is life; along that path is immortality.
Romans 1:23
and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Romans 2:7
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
1 Corinthians 15:53
For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
1 Corinthians 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Timothy 6:16
**who alone is immortal **and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
2 Timothy 1:10
but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
Expect a conditionalist to quote I Tim 6:15-16 which says only God is immortal. You do not need to prove that our soul is immortal. You only need to demonstrate that our soul survives physical death.
Death is defined in James 2:26 simply as seperation of body and soul. In Rev 6, people, souls are praying in heaven. In Isaiah 14 the dead raise up to greet a king who enters the grave. Jesus in Firstf Peter went to both sides of the grave to preach to the spirits there. I Peter 4:6 I think. and is it I peter 3:19 too? In Eph 4, we are told that Jesus led people to heaven from the grave. Paul expected to be with Christ when he died. We are told that the saints will return with Jesus from heaven.
Use I Cor 15:53-54 to prove that the wicked will have immortal bodies at their resurrection. This makes “eternal punishment” of Matthew 25:46 possible.
Play on the fact that we are given “eternal” life after the judgement Matthew 25:46.
K
kleary
Guest
Well neither do the Jehovah’s Witnesses… same animal - a few different stripes resulting from the “Great Dissapointment”.
Ken
M
mesl4
Guest
I’ll play “Devil’s advocate.”
Some JWs have been visitng me and I told them I’m considering Catholicism and the apostolic succession stuff is what convincing. They gave me a book called, “Reasoning with the Scriptures” that has tons of topics with Bible quotes explaining their reasoning, on of which is apostolic succession. Anyway, I’ve been reading it and was shocked today to read about their view and the Bible’s teaching on the soul, spirit, and immortality. It’s actually quite compelling. See Ps 146:4, Eccl 3:19, 9:5,6,10, Ezek 18:4,20,.
Also, that hell can be translated from “sheol” or “hades.” (Hebrew and Greek for grave/pit) or Gehenna, a place of eternal destruction. The concept of “soul” meaning a purely sprititual, immaterial realit, separate from the body does not exist in the Bible. “Soul” refers to the physical being, “spirit” to their life force.
Ps 9:17 “the wicked shall be turned into hell/death” (doesn’t sound like this will be eternal/conscious.
Job14:13 “protect me in hell (grave)” (so righteous people go there)
Acts 2:25-27 “you will not leave my soul in hell, neither will ou suffer your Holy One (Jesus) to see corruption.” Must refer to death, not actually a place of torment.
Rev. 20:13,14: “the sea gave up the dead and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them…death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.” (So they were dead/not alive spirits that were thrown into fire so burned up and gotten rid of…Like the place, Gehenna which was used to burn up dead bodies. They are unconscious.
-Mtt 25:46 says “These shall go away into everlasting punishment/(cutting off some read) but the righteous to eternal life.” The word is "Kolasin "derived from “kolazoo” which means to cut off, restrain, repress, chastise, punish. So depending on which meaning you use, it could mean different things. In order to be consistent with the previous Bible verses, since the BIble doesn’t contradict itself, we would have to think of it like cutting off. The wicked will be cut off from God forever. This doesn’t say they will be conscious.
2 Thess 1:9: “They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction /ruin and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.”
Jude 7, Luke 17:29: Sodom and Gomorrah suffered “eternal fire” but Jesus refers to it as being "destroyed in Luke.
So, it seems our concept of punishment/hell may be wrong. So much depends on how we define words but the JWs are right that the Bible needs to be consistent so if it starts of saying the soul does nothing after death, we should translate things according to that teaching in the NT and understand that yes, we get eternal life once Jesus returns and resurrects us, but we may not have a sould floating around in a spirit world/heaven/hell before then. We may all be resurrected when Jesus comes to judge, but we may not all live eternally. The Bible says clearly that only the faithful have eternal life. So, that would be the unfaithful do not have an immortal soul. They will be eternally cut off/dead.
The gift of Jesus and faith in Jesus is eternal life. Without that we don’t have eternal life. We will stay in the way things were before Jesus…dead. Punishment for sin is death. Humans were not created to live in heaven, but on Earth. Heaven was/is for God and his angels. Adam and Eve were created to live forever in paradise on Earth so that is the gift of eternal life we receive when we act in faith in Jesus. This makes a lot of sense to me. Scary. Any good come-backs?
The below mostly would have to do with the BELIEVER that DOES have immoratlity.
Some JWs have been visitng me and I told them I’m considering Catholicism and the apostolic succession stuff is what convincing. They gave me a book called, “Reasoning with the Scriptures” that has tons of topics with Bible quotes explaining their reasoning, on of which is apostolic succession. Anyway, I’ve been reading it and was shocked today to read about their view and the Bible’s teaching on the soul, spirit, and immortality. It’s actually quite compelling. See Ps 146:4, Eccl 3:19, 9:5,6,10, Ezek 18:4,20,.
Also, that hell can be translated from “sheol” or “hades.” (Hebrew and Greek for grave/pit) or Gehenna, a place of eternal destruction. The concept of “soul” meaning a purely sprititual, immaterial realit, separate from the body does not exist in the Bible. “Soul” refers to the physical being, “spirit” to their life force.
Ps 9:17 “the wicked shall be turned into hell/death” (doesn’t sound like this will be eternal/conscious.
Job14:13 “protect me in hell (grave)” (so righteous people go there)
Acts 2:25-27 “you will not leave my soul in hell, neither will ou suffer your Holy One (Jesus) to see corruption.” Must refer to death, not actually a place of torment.
Rev. 20:13,14: “the sea gave up the dead and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them…death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.” (So they were dead/not alive spirits that were thrown into fire so burned up and gotten rid of…Like the place, Gehenna which was used to burn up dead bodies. They are unconscious.
-Mtt 25:46 says “These shall go away into everlasting punishment/(cutting off some read) but the righteous to eternal life.” The word is "Kolasin "derived from “kolazoo” which means to cut off, restrain, repress, chastise, punish. So depending on which meaning you use, it could mean different things. In order to be consistent with the previous Bible verses, since the BIble doesn’t contradict itself, we would have to think of it like cutting off. The wicked will be cut off from God forever. This doesn’t say they will be conscious.
2 Thess 1:9: “They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction /ruin and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.”
Jude 7, Luke 17:29: Sodom and Gomorrah suffered “eternal fire” but Jesus refers to it as being "destroyed in Luke.
So, it seems our concept of punishment/hell may be wrong. So much depends on how we define words but the JWs are right that the Bible needs to be consistent so if it starts of saying the soul does nothing after death, we should translate things according to that teaching in the NT and understand that yes, we get eternal life once Jesus returns and resurrects us, but we may not have a sould floating around in a spirit world/heaven/hell before then. We may all be resurrected when Jesus comes to judge, but we may not all live eternally. The Bible says clearly that only the faithful have eternal life. So, that would be the unfaithful do not have an immortal soul. They will be eternally cut off/dead.
The gift of Jesus and faith in Jesus is eternal life. Without that we don’t have eternal life. We will stay in the way things were before Jesus…dead. Punishment for sin is death. Humans were not created to live in heaven, but on Earth. Heaven was/is for God and his angels. Adam and Eve were created to live forever in paradise on Earth so that is the gift of eternal life we receive when we act in faith in Jesus. This makes a lot of sense to me. Scary. Any good come-backs?
The below mostly would have to do with the BELIEVER that DOES have immoratlity.
- Status