IMO... It's better to be Protestant, but tell me why it's better to be Catholic

[One_in_Christ_1]

I’m hoping someone would address the differences in atonement, and why subsitutional or penal atonement is incompatable with Catholicism. I’d do it myself, but I’m having a lazy spell:blush:

"…Many Protestants see the Catholic/Protestant split as a tragic necessity, although the staunchly anti-Catholic kind of Protestant often sees nothing tragic about it. Or if he does, the tragedy is that there ever was such a thing as the Roman Catholic Church that the Reformers had to separate from. His motto is “Come out from among them” and five centuries of Christian disunity has done nothing to cool his anti-Roman fervor.

Yet for most Protestants, even for most conservative Protestants, this is not so. They believe God “raised up” Luther and the other Reformers to restore the Gospel in its purity. They regret that this required a break with Roman Catholics (hence the tragedy) but fidelity to Christ, on their view, demanded it (hence the necessity).
*Catholics agree with their more agreeable Protestant brethren that the sixteenth century division among Christians was tragic. But most Catholics who think about it also see it as unnecessary. At least unnecessary in the sense that what Catholics might regard as genuine issues raised by the Reformers could, on the Catholic view, have been addressed without the tragedy of dividing Christendom…" *
Why Only Catholicism Can Make Protestantism Work:
Louis Bouyer on the Reformation

comments by MARK BRUMLEY

I love the historic Protestant view of the atonement because I believe it to be true. If Christ did not pay the price for my sins in full, then it would be impossible for me to know if God has reconciled Himself to me the sinner. All Christians sin in this life. So which sin did Christ not pay for from a Catholic perspective and why?

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

tweetymom;6389803:

Christians are all equal in the eyes of God./]

Any Scripture to back that up?

All Christians who are in Christ have the righteousness of Christ. Since it’s Christ’s righteousness which bring us to God, it is the same righteousness that all Christians have. You might want to start with Romans 1:16-17. Is your standing before God based on your own righteousness?

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

Yes, we are all brothers/sisters in Christ. Your points about the Protestant theology of justification do not differ from Catholic teaching. You might enjoy reading the remarkably beautiful joint statement on justification issued by Lutherans and Catholics. It is posted in full on the official Vatican Web site: vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

Here is a little tidbit from the much longer statement:
15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.

At least we can agree on grace alone. I’m familiar with the joint declaration which is a very nice attempt. Maybe we are not that far apart when we understand justification is one part of salvation which is a process.

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

Because if none of the original Apostolic Churches got it right, Protestantism is too splintered to have gotten it right.

And if you are wondering, I would not consider Islam.

Having faith in Christ seems to be getting it right, don’t you think?

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I love the historic Protestant view of the atonement because I believe it to be true. If Christ did not pay the price for my sins in full, then it would be impossible for me to know if God has reconciled Himself to me the sinner. All Christians sin in this life. So which sin did Christ not pay for from a Catholic perspective and why?

This seems to be the real intent of your thread to speak about this issue even after Catholics have said we believe in the finished work of Christ. Why not start a new thread about it or examine official sources if you are interested in this? Frankly, I don’t see the relevance to why how Christ’s sacrifice about the Cross makes one tradition better than the other since we both believe in it. You’ve said that the Protestant view of justification is better, and that is why being a Protestant is better. Instead of polling us for answers, why not elaborate on this?

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Very good point. I see that all Christians know in part and should learn from other Christian communities and traditions than they belong to. For instances, many modern day Protestants should look to the Catholic Church on how they view tradition and church history, the creeds and confession… within a scope allowing them to remain distinctively Protestant. I think Catholics can look at the Protestant view of justification within range of still remaining Catholic. We are one in Christ with each one of us knowing in part, still struggling with sin that remains in us… which limits are perspective of our understanding of the Infinite.

Are you suggesting a Protestant and Catholic syncretism–like a Calvinist Catholic or Catholic Baptist?

 

[Monica4316]

IMO…it’s better to be Protestant, but tell me why it’s better to be Catholic. But remember, Catholics and Protestants are one in Christ for those who actually are known by God through Christ. Please try to keep your responses grounded in official Catholic teaching. I’ll start:

1. It’s better to be Protestant because historic Protestant theology rest in the finished work of Christ for our eternal standing before God,

how is Catholic theology different in this regard? we also believe what Christ did on the Cross is finished. Do you think we believe the Mass is another sacrifice of Christ? It’s the same one Sacrifice, re-presented before us, as if we were at Calvary. That’s because it was a timeless event…not constrained by time. YOur post shows misunderstanding of Catholic teaching.

We are justified by the person and work of Jesus Christ who earned our complete forgiveness and reconciliation for us,

again, it seems you have a big misunderstanding of Catholicism. We believe this too.

Christ earned forgiveness and reconciliation for us, but these graces need to be applied to us somehow, and this happens through the Sacraments, which Christ clearly talked about in Scripture.

We are saved from God to God, and for God on the basis of the work of Jesus Christ. Therefore, historic Protestant theology teaches that we have eternal peace with God because of the merit of Jesus Christ.

again, so does Catholicism.

I think it might help you to read the Catechism

 

[Monica4316]

To answer the question,

here are some reasons I’m glad I converted to Catholicism from Protestantism:

1. we receive Jesus physically into ourselves in Communion! really, I’d be Catholic just for that
2. we know our teachings are from the Holy Spirit, given to the Church, and not individual intepretation.
3. Blessed Mother Mary and the Saints
4. there is unity in teaching… only one Church
5. all the beautiful devotions, prayers, etc

 

[Vile_Servant]

To answer the question,

here are some reasons I’m glad I converted to Catholicism from Protestantism:

1. we receive Jesus physically into ourselves in Communion! really, I’d be Catholic just for that
2. we know our teachings are from the Holy Spirit, given to the Church, and not individual intepretation.
3. Blessed Mother Mary and the Saints
4. there is unity in teaching… only one Church
5. all the beautiful devotions, prayers, etc

beautifully said.

 

[CWBetts]

CWBetts;6389811:

All Christians who are in Christ have the righteousness of Christ. Since it’s Christ’s righteousness which bring us to God, it is the same righteousness that all Christians have. You might want to start with Romans 1:16-17. Is your standing before God based on your own righteousness?

Of course not. But my theology is not based on one or two verses taken out of context. It is based on the entire Canon of Scripture, conveniently ignoring nothing (most Protestants tend to have very poor exegesis) and the whole of Sacred Tradition (not to be confused with “traditions of men”–that would be best exemplified by the 5 solas). Furthermore, “just believing without having to do anything else” is a lie straight from the pits of Hell.

 

[spn82756]

tweetymom;6389902:

That is why we need an infallible interpreter of Scripture. That interpreter is the Catholic Church.

Are you awared that the woman vrowned with stars in revelation was not always considered to be Mary by the CC? That changed. I’m at work…but I will find the reference for that by the end of the day. Of course…I’m sure you will contest and scream and kick and pound your fist that anyone that disagrees with you is wrong.

 

[CWBetts]

CWBetts;6389969:

Are you awared that the woman vrowned with stars in revelation was not always considered to be Mary by the CC? That changed. I’m at work…but I will find the reference for that by the end of the day. Of course…I’m sure you will contest and scream and kick and pound your fist that anyone that disagrees with you is wrong.

Of course. The Scriptures are multi-layered with multiple interpretations. The Church has never said the woman in Revelation is NOT Mary. If you can prove me wrong, then so be it. I will submit to the Church. And I stand by my statement that we need an infallible interpreter, which is the Church. And please do not try to deceive people by producing a non-magisterial work of some theologian. I can find all kinds of incorrect writings by “Catholic Theologians” that are not in agreement with the Church. Finally, if you do not find the Church to be an infallible teacher, then why are you Catholic? Catholicism is not a “pick and choose” proposition. TO be a faithful Catholic, you must accept all of it.

 

[mark_a]

Having faith in Christ seems to be getting it right, don’t you think?

Christian behavior is getting it right.

Is the faith of the Anglicans the same as the faith of the SDA?

 

[spn82756]

Of course. The Scriptures are multi-layered with multiple interpretations. The Church has never said the woman in Revelation is NOT Mary. If you can prove me wrong, then so be it. I will submit to the Church. And I stand by my statement that we need an infallible interpreter, which is the Church. And please do not try to deceive people by producing a non-magisterial work of some theologian. I can find all kinds of incorrect writings by “Catholic Theologians” that are not in agreement with the Church. Finally, if you do not find the Church to be an infallible teacher, then why are you Catholic? Catholicism is not a “pick and choose” proposition. TO be a faithful Catholic, you must accept all of it.

Did you see what I have listed for my religion? That’s what I am and that’s what I believe. What I am discusted with is the perpetual bashing that goes on between Catholics and non-Catholics in some of these threads. I have more than once challenged posters here to go to the non-Catholic part of the forum and challenge non believers and especially muslims. I don’t even get a reply. The posts are ignored. Perhaps people are afraid to spread the Gospel effectively to those that don’t accept it and will REALLY challenge them.

I guess I’m frustrated with the infighting when there is plenty of people out there that are completely lost. You sir are doing Christianity no favors.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Of course not. But my theology is not based on one or two verses taken out of context. It is based on the entire Canon of Scripture, conveniently ignoring nothing (most Protestants tend to have very poor exegesis) and the whole of Sacred Tradition (not to be confused with “traditions of men”–that would be best exemplified by the 5 solas). Furthermore, “just believing without having to do anything else” is a lie straight from the pits of Hell.

I don’t think One in Christ is saying that, but I could be wrong. If you look at his other statement of about morality, God gave us the Mosaic law (which to some includes the moral law as well). Since if man is damaged by sin (either by total depravity or original sin) he cannot keep the moral laws on his own—by each failing, he comes under the punishment of the law. However, God being perfect can. Hence why some Protestants have the alien righteousness of Christ. Christ did what no man could: He fulfilled the law, took the punishment of hell for breaking God’s law and the elect receive His righteousness. So sanctification (acts of obedience) occur after justification (which no man could ever achieve on his own except God). It’s not as if acts of obedience are completely unnecessary, just not with justification.

I, of course, don’t agree with the historic Protestant theology but I think it’s important to understand where the other is coming from.

 

[CWBetts]

CWBetts;6390751:

Did you see what I have listed for my religion? That’s what I am and that’s what I believe. What I am discusted with is the perpetual bashing that goes on between Catholics and non-Catholics in some of these threads. I have more than once challenged posters here to go to the non-Catholic part of the forum and challenge non believers and especially muslims. I don’t even get a reply. The posts are ignored. Perhaps people are afraid to spread the Gospel effectively to those that don’t accept it and will REALLY challenge them.

I guess I’m frustrated with the infighting when there is plenty of people out there that are completely lost. You sir are doing Christianity no favors.

You are one of those who I mentioned earlier that are embracing false ecumenism. You really need to read Lumen Gentium (pay close attention to the second chapter “The People of God”) NOT ALL FORMS OF CHRISTIANITY ARE THE SAME! Protestants, who reject very basic tenets of the faith (such as the Sacraments) need to be brought back to the fold. There is more truth of varying degrees in different forms of Protestantism than Islam, but the Fullness of Truth subsists in the Catholic Church alone. You should change what your religion says, because you are NOT faithful to the Holy See. You are faithful to those who embrace the non-existent “spirit of Vatican 2”

 

[spn82756]

You are one of those who I mentioned earlier that are embracing false ecumenism. You really need to read Lumen Gentium (pay close attention to the second chapter “The People of God”) NOT ALL FORMS OF CHRISTIANITY ARE THE SAME! Protestants, who reject very basic tenets of the faith (such as the Sacraments) need to be brought back to the fold. There is more truth of varying degrees in different forms of Protestantism than Islam, but the Fullness of Truth subsists in the Catholic Church alone. You should change what your religion says, because you are NOT faithful to the Holy See. You are faithful to those who embrace the non-existent “spirit of Vatican 2”

I’m glad you can feel free to tell me what I believe! Now I will tell you what you believe. You are the man who proudly raised his head toward heaven to thank God that you are not a sinner like the humble man who was too ashamed to raise his head toward heaven when he asked for forgiveness. Perhaps you should change your religiong to old time pharisee.

 

[CWBetts]

I’m glad you can feel free to tell me what I believe! Now I will tell you what you believe. You are the man who proudly raised his head toward heaven to thank God that you are not a sinner like the humble man who was too ashamed to raise his head toward heaven when he asked for forgiveness. Perhaps you should change your religiong to old time pharisee.

You have no idea about my faith, or my journey. Read my blog. Your words here make it clear that you are grossly uninformed on what the Church truly teaches on ecumenism

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Name-calling isn’t going to get us anywhere.

 

[spn82756]

You have no idea about my faith, or my journey. Read my blog. Your words here make it clear that you are grossly uninformed on what the Church truly teaches on ecumenism

You try to tell me what I believe…then become upset when I tell you what you believe!

:dancing::extrahappy::banghead::juggle::harp::egyptian::crutches: