IMO... It's better to be Protestant, but tell me why it's better to be Catholic

[One_in_Christ_1]

I don’t know where you’re going with this statement. Forgiveness of sin has nothing to do with whether you are our separated brothers in Christ or not. As for the Holy Ghost being present in the Protestant Churches? He’s there to an extent because everyone is blessed with the Holy Spirit, but as for being present in the Protestant churches alone? No, the Holy Spirit doesn’t guide those churches. He certainly isn’t there when it comes to the Sacraments or guidance.

The Holy Spirit only guides the leader of that church in personal ways like He does all people, not in the way He guides the Catholic Church.

How can Protestant churches not be guided by the Holy Spirit and be a Christian church belonging to him? According to Scritpure… “Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him”.

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [1] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you [2] free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, [3] he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. - Rom 8

 

[CWBetts]

“Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.”

When did the Gentiles ever believe that they were justified by Jewish ceremonial law, CW? Saying “Luther got it wrong” accomplishes nothing when you’ve yet to answer how Paul could be talking about ceremonial law when he states the entire world is condemned by the law.

“When gentiles have not the law (Old Testament Law) do by nature what the law (moral law) requires they are a law (moral law) unto themselves.”

“But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law (Law of Moses) through the law (Old Testament Law) and the prophets bear witness to it”

“For we testify that man is justified by faith apart from works of the law (Levitical Law)”

Just because the same word is used, even in the Greek, does not mean it always mean the same thing. THe same word can be used in different senses.

 

[CWBetts]

How can Protestant churches not be guided by the Holy Spirit and be a Christian church belonging to him? According to Scritpure… “Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him”.

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [1] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you [2] free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, [3] he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. - Rom 8

We never saod that the Holy Spirit had no influence, but only that the Protestant ecclesial communities do not have the fullness of the Spirit of Truth.

 

[Carlan]

Please help me understand what Catholic theology means by a fall from grace? Does that mean a person is apostate like in Hebrews 6?

Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 and of instruction about washings, [1] the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits. 4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned. - Hebrews 6

To be apostate is to renounce faith, to defect,no longer believe in the Truth taught.
Fall from grace means when you sin mortally (deadly sin). If you become remorseful of that sin and repent, you are then once again reconciled and in union with God the Father through His precious grace.Peace, Carlan

 

[TriuneUnity]

“When gentiles have not the law (Old Testament Law) do by nature what the law (moral law) requires they are a law (moral law) unto themselves.”

“But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law (Law of Moses) through the law (Old Testament Law) and the prophets bear witness to it”

“For we testify that man is justified by faith apart from works of the law (Levitical Law)”

Just because the same word is used, even in the Greek, does not mean it always mean the same thing. THe same word can be used in different senses.

That Paul is using the term “works of the law” to mean Levitical law is simply not born out by the text, CW. There is no contextual basis to interpret the phrase “works of the law” as Levitical law.

Romans 3:20: “For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.”

No human being, CW, either Jew or Gentile. Were Gentiles under the Levitical law? Does the knowledge of sin come by Levitical law? If not, an it is obvious that it doesn’t, then the phrase “works of the law” is not code for Levitical law.

Galatians 3:10-13: "For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, ‘Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.’ Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather ‘The one who does them shall live by them.’ Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree’—

Also see Galatians 3:1 ff. where Paul says we did not receive the Spirit by works of the law, but by faith. When did the Jews believe the Spirit was given through ritual purifications, and kosher? Was Christ crucified for the Levitical law, or the WHOLE of the law, CW? You cannot make any solid case that Paul is switching back and forth between moral law and Levitical law, unless you’re just using rank eisegesis to read your viewpoint into the text.

 

[CWBetts]

That Paul is using the term “works of the law” to mean Levitical law is simply not born out by the text, CW. There is no contextual basis to interpret the phrase “works of the law” as Levitical law.

Romans 3:20: “For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.”

No human being, CW, either Jew or Gentile. Were Gentiles under the Levitical law? Does the knowledge of sin come by Levitical law? If not, an it is obvious that it doesn’t, then the phrase “works of the law” is not code for Levitical law.

Galatians 3:10-13: "For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, ‘Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.’ Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather ‘The one who does them shall live by them.’ Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree’—

Also see Galatians 3:1 ff. where Paul says we did not receive the Spirit by works of the law, but by faith. When did the Jews believe the Spirit was given through ritual purifications, and kosher? Was Christ crucified for the Levitical law, or the WHOLE of the law, CW? You cannot make any solid case that Paul is switching back and forth between moral law and Levitical law, unless you’re just using rank eisegesis to read your viewpoint into the text.

If Romans 3:20 is not in reference to Ceremonial Law, then it contradicts Romans 2:13 : “For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified”

Which is it? If do we need to perform works of the law or not? We do not, knowing that “works of the law,” must be ceremonial law, as is borne out in the Dead Sea Scrolls. I think the “Sola Fide” folks just pretend Romans 2:13 does not exist.

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

To be apostate is to renounce faith, to defect,no longer believe in the Truth taught.
Fall from grace means when you sin mortally (deadly sin). If you become remorseful of that sin and repent, you are then once again reconciled and in union with God the Father through His precious grace.Peace, Carlan

When a Catholic falls from grace, do they loose their adoption status and are reunited to Adam at that point. Does a Catholic go from the kingdom of darkness, then kingdom of light at baptism, back to kingdom of darkness upon mortal sin, and back to kingdom of light upon repentance and receiving the sacrament to restore your relationship back to God? It’s not easy to understand the Catholic Faith.

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

We never saod that the Holy Spirit had no influence, but only that the Protestant ecclesial communities do not have the fullness of the Spirit of Truth.

What is this fullness of the Spirit… does the Spirit only work in 25% power in Protestant Churches? I’m trying to follow your view, since the Spirit of God is almighty God who works a mighty work in sinners to transform them into the image of God to the praise of His transforming grace. I believe the Spirit of God is in the individual Christian as compared to the external churches themselves.

 

[CWBetts]

What is this fullness of the Spirit… does the Spirit only work in 25% power in Protestant Churches? I’m trying to follow your view, since the Spirit of God is almighty God who works a mighty work in sinners to transform them into the image of God to the praise of His transforming grace. I believe the Spirit of God is in the individual Christian as compared to the external churches themselves.

Protestants do not possess all of the truth. They have different degrees of truth, but the fullness of truth subsists in th Catholic Church alone.

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

Protestants do not possess all of the truth. They have different degrees of truth, but the fullness of truth subsists in th Catholic Church alone.

I still believe in Christian unity between Protestant and Catholics, in-spite of that belief.

 

[spn82756]

Protestants do not possess all of the truth. They have different degrees of truth, but the fullness of truth subsists in th Catholic Church alone.

And what about Orthodox?

 

[paul_c]

When a Catholic falls from grace, do they loose their adoption status and are reunited to Adam at that point. Does a Catholic go from the kingdom of darkness, then kingdom of light at baptism, back to kingdom of darkness upon mortal sin, and back to kingdom of light upon repentance and receiving the sacrament to restore your relationship back to God? It’s not easy to understand the Catholic Faith.

Its actually quite simple in concept. When we are baptized, our sins are forgiven and we enter into the state of grace. If we stay in the state of grace until we die, we go to heaven.

We stay in the state of grace by doing God’s will for us, which is to love him and our neighbor. If we sin, which is a failure to love, we fall from the state of grace and will be condemned. However, in God’s infinite mercy, if we recognize that we have failed to love and are truly sorry for our actions, we can regain the state of grace through the sacrament of reconciliation.

In the Catholic church, grace is recieved through physical actions that we call the sacraments. There are 7 of them: baptism, confirmation and the eucharist are the sacraments of initiation. Reconciliation and annointing of the sick are sacraments of healing (one from spiritual ills, the other from physical ones), Marriage and Holy orders are the sacraments of service (to our spouse or to God and his people). All of these are overt activities that signal our desires for grace. You see, in catholicism it is action that counts, not simply words or thoughts. But these actions must be for the right reason (out of love) and not just because we are compelled to follow a law, hence the discourse in Romans.

Remember, also, that the discourse on the law in Romans3-6 follows a very clear statement in Romans 2:

5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek

So it is abundantly clear that works matter toward salvation. Remember James 2: Faith without works is dead. But you must do those works out of love to be saved. Not just because it is the law.

Being a Christian is about love more than Faith and hope. Love completes the other two. Read 1Corinithans 13 if you need validation from scripture of this point.

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

And what about Orthodox?

Protestants have 25% of the Spirit (and truth) and Orthodox have 75% of the Spirit (and truth). How can any Christian tradition have all truth one this side of glory? This is a fallen world! Heck, I just read the article from the Cardinal which appears to unite the Catholic Church and Mormon Church (see thread that I started). We all know in part according to the Apostle Paul. It is humbling to know God is infinite in which no tradition can exhaust His truth and wisdom. To say that a particular traditon has the fullness of truth is to say that a particular tradition knows God fullly.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=436677

 

[TriuneUnity]

If Romans 3:20 is not in reference to Ceremonial Law, then it contradicts Romans 2:13 : “For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified”

Which is it? If do we need to perform works of the law or not? We do not, knowing that “works of the law,” must be ceremonial law, as is borne out in the Dead Sea Scrolls. I think the “Sola Fide” folks just pretend Romans 2:13 does not exist.

If Romans 3:20 is in reference to ceremonial law, then the statement is nonsensical. “Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.”

Will the whole world be held accountable to God for Levitical law? Of course not. The Gentiles could not be held accountable to the Levitical law, because they were never under it. They are, however, under God’s moral law. The knowledge of sin does not come through Levitical law, because the Gentiles would not been given knowledge of sin, if that were the case. The knowledge of sin comes through the Commandments, which are written on the human heart. It is perfectly consistent with Romans 2:13 because the doers of the moral law will be justified. Paul later goes on to explain that no one can do the moral law perfectly, which is what it requires in order to be justified (Romans 3:10 ff.)

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

Its actually quite simple in concept. When we are baptized, our sins are forgiven and we enter into the state of grace. If we stay in the state of grace until we die, we go to heaven.

We stay in the state of grace by doing God’s will for us, which is to love him and our neighbor. If we sin, which is a failure to love, we fall from the state of grace and will be condemned. However, in God’s infinite mercy, if we recognize that we have failed to love and are truly sorry for our actions, we can regain the state of grace through the sacrament of reconciliation.

In the Catholic church, grace is recieved through physical actions that we call the sacraments. There are 7 of them: baptism, confirmation and the eucharist are the sacraments of initiation. Reconciliation and annointing of the sick are sacraments of healing (one from spiritual ills, the other from physical ones), Marriage and Holy orders are the sacraments of service (to our spouse or to God and his people). All of these are overt activities that signal our desires for grace. You see, in catholicism it is action that counts, not simply words or thoughts. But these actions must be for the right reason (out of love) and not just because we are compelled to follow a law, hence the discourse in Romans.

Remember, also, that the discourse on the law in Romans3-6 follows a very clear statement in Romans 2:

5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek

So it is abundantly clear that works matter toward salvation. Remember James 2: Faith without works is dead. But you must do those works out of love to be saved. Not just because it is the law.

Being a Christian is about love more than Faith and hope. Love completes the other two. Read 1Corinithans 13 if you need validation from scripture of this point.

Are you saying that the assurance of a Catholic is determined on how they are doing on a particular day? If appears to be an introspective walk, as compared to having faith in what God has done for us in Christ to secure our relationship with Him once and for all. So in Catholic theology, it is not possible to know if a sinner has been eternally forgiven and adopted into the family of God since your citizenship in the Kingdom of God is not determined until you die, correct?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hi Triune,

Just a question I’d like your take on. It’s not an inflammatory or combative or argumentative question, just something I’d like your perspective on as an intelligent, well-read Lutheran…

If justification is through faith “alone” and works are, as you say, not just Levitical ritualistic works but indeed good works in the Ten Commandments sense, how does one account for the idea that the early church was very much into works and penances? There were strict ideas about sin after baptism being very serious and damning in the early days. After a while, and not much time at that, public confession and very strict penances were developed to deal with the sins of the community. Reading Augustine and the early Christians I’ve read, works played a huge role in the salvation process. What do you say to Catholics who tell Lutherans that the first 1,500 years or so until Luther came, Christianity was a blend of works and faith? They would ask, what about those Christians that wallowed through the first 1,500 years without the faith-alone Lutheran concept?

Just a question I rarely hear answered. Thanks!

That Paul is using the term “works of the law” to mean Levitical law is simply not born out by the text, CW. There is no contextual basis to interpret the phrase “works of the law” as Levitical law.

Romans 3:20: “For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.”

No human being, CW, either Jew or Gentile. Were Gentiles under the Levitical law? Does the knowledge of sin come by Levitical law? If not, an it is obvious that it doesn’t, then the phrase “works of the law” is not code for Levitical law.

Galatians 3:10-13: "For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, ‘Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.’ Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather ‘The one who does them shall live by them.’ Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree’—

Also see Galatians 3:1 ff. where Paul says we did not receive the Spirit by works of the law, but by faith. When did the Jews believe the Spirit was given through ritual purifications, and kosher? Was Christ crucified for the Levitical law, or the WHOLE of the law, CW? You cannot make any solid case that Paul is switching back and forth between moral law and Levitical law, unless you’re just using rank eisegesis to read your viewpoint into the text.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CWBetts
Protestants do not possess all of the truth. They have different degrees of truth, but the fullness of truth subsists in th Catholic Church alone.

We are unified on the points where we agree, which are many. But again, don’t gloss over the differences. Your denial of the sacraments is a very, very big deal.

As for trhe orthodox, we have very few doctrinal differences with them and they have the same 7 valid sacraments. The issues are really in terms of church governance (their acceptance of the Pope as supreme head versus first among equals). Unity with them is much easier.

 

[CWBetts]

If Romans 3:20 is in reference to ceremonial law, then the statement is nonsensical. “Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.”

Will the whole world be held accountable to God for Levitical law? Of course not. The Gentiles could not be held accountable to the Levitical law, because they were never under it. They are, however, under God’s moral law. The knowledge of sin does not come through Levitical law, because the Gentiles would not been given knowledge of sin, if that were the case. The knowledge of sin comes through the Commandments, which are written on the human heart. It is perfectly consistent with Romans 2:13 because the doers of the moral law will be justified. Paul later goes on to explain that no one can do the moral law perfectly, which is what it requires in order to be justified (Romans 3:10 ff.)

You really need to work on exegetical skills. You are approaching this as “We are saved by faith alone. How can I twist Romans to make it work?” We know that we are not saved by faith alone, because the only time in the whole of Scriptures that mentions the phrase “faith alone” is to say that we are NOT saved by faith alone. Give up already.

 

[tweetymom]

I am so glad that Jesus reigns in my heart and life and it does not matter to Him if I am Catholic or protestant or whatever. It is all about Jesus not the name on the door. I love all people regardless of their religion. We all need to appreciate all believers in Christ, or we ain’t gonna make it to see our wonderful Savior. We will be judged by our love and actions or inactions towards each other not the name on the door. I praise God for His love and grace to me in spite of myself sometimes…

 

[CWBetts]

Are you saying that the assurance of a Catholic is determined on how they are doing on a particular day? If appears to be an introspective walk, as compared to having faith in what God has done for us in Christ to secure our relationship with Him once and for all. So in Catholic theology, it is not possible to know if a sinner has been eternally forgiven and adopted into the family of God since your citizenship in the Kingdom of God is not determined until you die, correct?

What you have to remember is that we do not hold that our righteousness is our own. Any righteousness we have is a gift from God.