Impact of Protestanism

[Zamsaf]

Hello all, I am new to the forum. I am not Christian. However, I am doing some research and looking for some help. I am very interested in the Protestant reform, and how it impacted religious authority, or the manner in which Catholics defend catholicism. In other words, how did the protestant challenge to Catholicism change the manner in which catholics define and warrant their beliefs? Any help would be appreciated.

 

[bobbyhillisabro]

Hello all, I am new to the forum. I am not Christian. However, I am doing some research and looking for some help. I am very interested in the Protestant reform, and how it impacted religious authority, or the manner in which Catholics defend catholicism. In other words, how did the protestant challenge to Catholicism change the manner in which catholics define and warrant their beliefs? Any help would be appreciated.

The Catholic Church’s beliefs have never changed. Protestants go by the rule of “sola scriptura”, which means that scripture is your highest authority. Ironically scripture never says that scripture is your highest authority. Another doctrine of Protestantism is that you are free to privately interpret The Bible as you want as long as it doesn’t interfere with what they call the “essentials” (even though the Bible doesn’t tell us what the “essential” doctrines are). The Bible actually tells us in 1 Timothy 3:15 that The Church is the pillar of truth, not scripture.

As for the reformation, It was started by Martin Luther. He started his own denomination and threw out multiple books of the Bible that he believed did not fit with his view of, including Revelation. He was the one who started sola scriptura, but it wasn’t his intention for people to make a bunch of different denominations. He spoke against people who changed their interpretation of the Bible to suit their lifestyle (ironically this is exactly what he did), but this is what sola scriptura lead to inevitably.

If you read through history and the early Church fathers, you will find that the Catholic Church is 2000 years old. Here is a link to a letter written by St. Ignatius of Antioch. He was a student of John the Apostle and a Christian Martyr who fed to the lions by the Roman Empire.

God Bless

Chapters 6 and 8 are the best for proof of the Catholic faith in my opinion. They are both only a few verses long.
earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-smyrnaeans-hoole.html

 

[Zamsaf]

Thank you for the response. Being that Protestantism is based on the rule of “Sola scripture”, which I assume is very attractive, have Catholics since also been justifying Catholicism using scripture? Even in your response, you used scripture to invalidate Protestantism. Is the quoting of scripture by catholics a post-reform phenomena? Or did the Church always back their religious beliefs and practices on scripture?

Is the appeal to textualism a challenge for Catholics? And how do they go about justifying following tradition (or scripture through the understanding of tradition) instead of just direct scripture?

Sorry for all the questions

 

[LegoGE1947]

Thank you for the response. Being that Protestantism is based on the rule of “Sola scripture”, which I assume is very attractive, have Catholics since also been justifying Catholicism using scripture? Even in your response, you used scripture to invalidate Protestantism. Is the quoting of scripture by catholics a post-reform phenomena? Or did the Church always back their religious beliefs and practices on scripture?

Is the appeal to textualism a challenge for Catholics? And how do they go about justifying following tradition (or scripture through the understanding of tradition) instead of just direct scripture?

Sorry for all the questions

One huge change was that in England, prior to the Protestant revolt the Catholic population of England was near 100%. Afterwards and today the Catholic population is now 8%.

 

[surritter]

As Catholics, we do often quote from the Bible, but unlike Protestants, we realize that the Bible itself is based on an authority – that of the Catholic Church!

Think about the logic: since the Bible wasn’t given to the Apostles by Jesus (it came about 300 years later!) then it makes no sense to say that the “Bible alone” is all we need. Heck, I can write a book and give it to you saying that it is the only authority you need, but on what basis should you believe my statement? Nothing! So by putting faith in a book, Protestants are implicitly putting faith in those who canonized scripture. And who canonized scripture? … The Catholic Church!

So even today, Catholics know that the first authority was given to the Apostles, who transferred that authority to their successors – who were the early bishops – and this lineage continues to this day. The bishops of the 4th century declared the books of the Bible to be sacred, and an authority to be used by Christians – but NOT an authority divorced from the bishops and the Church itself.

So from a purely logical point of view, this is how we “justify following tradition instead of just direct scripture.” Or, to be more specific, we justify tradition and scripture on equal levels; there is never a contradiction.

 

[latingirl]

Oh no , Catholics have always quoted from the Bible. In fact, we put it together

 

[sousley]

As Catholics, we recognize the Church as real and tangible; that Jesus started this Church and appointed His chosen followers to promulgate that faith throughout the world. Some events (historical, liturgical, etc.) were recorded by these early followers and were later (late 4th century) compiled into what we know as the Bible. So there is not a separation between the Church and the Bible, they serve in unison.

Protestantism is a very broad term; there is a wide variety of beliefs. But it generally seeks to divorce the Bible from the Church and then sort of marry it off to another church that follows a different set of beliefs. While each (in general) claims to recognize the Bible as solely authoritative, there is sometime little agreement on how to interpret it, which has led to thousands of distinctive denominations.

A protestant seeks to redefine Jesus’s Church as something more abstract; an invisible body of believers that Jesus is Lord. By redefining the Church as intangible, with no set manner of right worship beyond professing Jesus as Savior, it opens the door for all kinds different types of “faith” and gives the authority to each individual person to decide which “faith” they will follow. The trouble is that the faith is created by each individual person, or denomination founder, and does not surrender oneself into obedience to the faith of the Church that Jesus started.

 

[otjm]

Thank you for the response. Being that Protestantism is based on the rule of “Sola scripture”, which I assume is very attractive, have Catholics since also been justifying Catholicism using scripture? Even in your response, you used scripture to invalidate Protestantism. Is the quoting of scripture by catholics a post-reform phenomena? Or did the Church always back their religious beliefs and practices on scripture?

Is the appeal to textualism a challenge for Catholics? And how do they go about justifying following tradition (or scripture through the understanding of tradition) instead of just direct scripture?

Sorry for all the questions

Don’t apologize - you have good questions.

First, from another thread, you might try to find a podcast by Fr. Tom Hopko on Ancient Faith Radio. The lead is from CanstantineTG, a member of this forum;l you can also send him a private note (go to profile at the top - the second one down) if you need help there.

No, I would not say that using scriptures is a post-Reform phenomena. The Chur;ch always backed their beliefs and practices on both Scripture and Tradition.

What needs to be understood is that for the first 300+ years after Christ, there were a number of writings that were generally accepted, but it was after 300 before there was a formal declration setting forth what was accepted as Sacred Scripture. And assuming that Christ died about 30 A>D +/-, it was, ten, twenty or more years before things started to be written down, in part because the earliest Church expected that Christ would be reappearing in their lifetime. Gradually, things began to be written and collected; but until then, and after then the Church relied on traditio (from trado - to hand over) as they relied on what was passed on from the Apostles.

As to the appeal to textualism, too many Protestants rely on what is called “proof texting”, that is taking a short text as proof of something. The Church practices contextualism; that is, they take what is said in the context in which it is said, rather than relying on one or two lines.

So, the Catholic Church does not rely on Scripture alone (which idea is notably missing in Scripture) but relies on Tradition as well as Scripture.

John Henry Cardinal Newman (1801 - 1890), originally an evangelical Oxford academic and priest in the Church of England, is credited with saying to the effect that to be steeped in the Fathers of the Church is to cease to be Protestant. The Fathers of the Church were the early Church writers.

 

[bobbyhillisabro]

Thank you for the response. Being that Protestantism is based on the rule of “Sola scripture”, which I assume is very attractive, have Catholics since also been justifying Catholicism using scripture? Even in your response, you used scripture to invalidate Protestantism. Is the quoting of scripture by catholics a post-reform phenomena? Or did the Church always back their religious beliefs and practices on scripture?

Is the appeal to textualism a challenge for Catholics? And how do they go about justifying following tradition (or scripture through the understanding of tradition) instead of just direct scripture?

Sorry for all the questions

Scripture has always been quoted by The Catholic Church since it was established. Referencing scripture is not a challenge. As the guy said above me, we take scripture as a whole. And Surritter’s explanation is great as to why we follow tradition.

 

[bobbyhillisabro]

One huge change was that in England, prior to the Protestant revolt the Catholic population of England was near 100%. Afterwards and today the Catholic population is now 8%.

I just watched an episode of “The Vortex” that went over that, lol

 

[Zamsaf]

Thank you, these were all very insightful and helpful responses. I guess my last questions would be whether the protestant reform have any effect on how catholics view themselves and are viewed by others?

 

[ChurchSoldier]

Yes. It was called the Counter Reformation. Here’s an article from the Catholic Encyclopedia.

 

[sousley]

Thank you, these were all very insightful and helpful responses. I guess my last questions would be whether the protestant reform have any effect on how catholics view themselves and are viewed by others?

How we view ourselves? I think so. All of us individually and collectively need to acknowledge our failures and the times when we haven’t been worthy vessels to reflect God’s love and mercy. It’s by so doing that we grow in our faith as people and as a community. I think the Church has historically done a decent job of examining its conscience and reforming its practices to better emulate the will of the Father. Not without failure but we have to keep striving. So for that, I am proud of the Church, and proud to be Catholic.

How others view us? Depends on the person I suppose. I think that we are often held to higher standard even if it is inadvertent. For example, a priest that no one has ever heard of, that is guilty of some sinful impropriety is called out harshly in the media and the entire Church is denounced as a result. If say a Baptist minister that no one has ever heard of does the same, the entire Baptist community isn’t sanctioned, just the one person. What’s the difference? I think that Catholics are more viewed as a solidified community (even among protestants) whereas protestants are viewed as individuals (no church). So in that respect, this continual splintering is destructive to the Body of Christ.

 

[bobbyhillisabro]

Another doctrine of Protestantism is that you are free to privately interpret The Bible as you want as long as it doesn’t interfere with what they call the “essentials” ]

Sorry just want to edit this, not doctrine, but common belief

 

[LegoGE1947]

I just watched an episode of “The Vortex” that went over that, lol

Yes. Sorry That was the Vortex episode of Friday May 10, 2013 where they also discussed the legend of Robin Hood and said that prior to the 16 th Century Robin Hood was depicted as a devout Catholic with a special devotion to the Blessed Virgin and a very chivalrous gentleman who was protective of women. Almost over night when Henry VIII proclaimed himself head of the Church of England Robin’s image changed to a Catholic-clergy hating outlaw who robbed from those “evil abbots and bishops” and gave the takings to the poor. It was thought that this was made up to whip up public sentiment against all things Catholic. Should have given credit where credit was due:blush:

www.churchmilitant.tv
Vortex episode from Friday May 10, 2013

 

[LegoGE1947]

Sorry just want to edit this, not doctrine, but common belief

That’s why instead of 1 Church we have several thousand! It reminds one of the book of Judges in the Old Testament where it is quoted several times “Everyone did what was right in his own eyes”)

 

[ProVobis]

One huge change was that in England, prior to the Protestant revolt the Catholic population of England was near 100%. Afterwards and today the Catholic population is now 8%.

I think it was more like 0% until about the mid 19th century. Henry VIII had confiscated all Church property. Here is a good history of the state written on the website of the Church I received my first communion.

stmarys-clapham.org.uk/history.html

Catholicism in the U.S., unlike Latin America, was virtually non-existent before then too, although it has now reached about 22% or so. A lot of that, however, has come through Polish, Irish, Italian, Hispanic and other immigration and assimilation.

 

[ProVobis]

Oh no , Catholics have always quoted from the Bible. In fact, **we put it together **

This is actually true.