Implementation of the New Translation

[Vico]

Yes, of course, but my point is that the final approved text was only quite recently released.

For instance…contrary to the supposed method…the literal translation of the Creed is not followed in the approved English edition. Meaning, we will pray “I Believe” three times in the Creed (as we currently do, though with We instead of I) instead of following the Latin text, which only has one “I Believe” at the beginning. The practical fact that the Creed is rarely sung (I’ve never celebrated a liturgy at which it was sung) is kind of moot.

The fact that an option of the Roman Missal is rarely used does not make such a non-issue (though opinions may vary on that, depending on ones’ consideration of Rome/the Vatican as a liturgical authority).

Just one “I believe” now.

CREDO VII
(ENGLISH ADAPTATION)
I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was uried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end. And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets. And one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins, and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

 

[japhy]

Just one “I believe” now.

No, Vico, that’s an older version (from 2008) of the new translation. The version made public in August has three “I believe” statements.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

I have a document that gives examples of the Latin in the Missale Romanun editio typica tertia (please excuse me if my Latin is incorrect ) published by the Holy See in 2002. Then it gives the English version for the, and I quote: “2008 recognitio” and the (again quoting): “2010 recognitio”. Was recognitio given to the 2008 translation. If it was why is there a 2010 translation?

I’m presuming the document is incorrect and that Rome said no to the 2008 translation and therefore ICEL went away and did more work on it.

 

[Phemie]

I have a document that gives examples of the Latin in the Missale Romanun editio typica tertia (please excuse me if my Latin is incorrect ) published by the Holy See in 2002. Then it gives the English version for the, and I quote: “2008 recognitio” and the (again quoting): “2010 recognitio”. Was recognitio given to the 2008 translation. If it was why is there a 2010 translation?

I’m presuming the document is incorrect and that Rome said no to the 2008 translation and therefore ICEL went away and did more work on it.

No, the document is correct.

ICEL’s translation was was given recognitio in 2008. Because of the way the translation was done and accepted piecemeal (book by book) there were prayers that were common to 2 or more books and they had to be reviewed to ensure that the same translation was used for the prayer in all instances.

There was some tweaking of other texts to bring them into proper English (the Apostles Creed was grammatically incorrect with “And in…” but became grammatically correct by replacing all the instances of "And in’ by “I believe”) and I guess to make some more easily spoken although, in some instances shown in the comparison, I don’t think they accomplished that at all.

 

[japhy]

I have a document that gives examples of the Latin in the Missale Romanun editio typica tertia published by the Holy See in 2002. Then it gives the English version for the, and I quote: “2008 recognitio” and the (again quoting): “2010 recognitio”. Was recognitio given to the 2008 translation. If it was why is there a 2010 translation?

In June of 2008, there was released the Order of Mass with a recognitio. “The English translation of the Order of Mass receives recognitio from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, so that catechesis on the revised texts could begin and musical settings of the Mass texts could be prepared. It was not authorized for liturgical use.” (source) A PDF of the letter from the Cong. for Divine Worship and the Disc. of the Sacraments accompanying the recognitio can be found here. It makes it clear that the text was approved and that it is meant for catechetical and preparatory purposes only, not actual liturgical use.

The translation of the Order of Mass changed slightly in a few places between 2008 and 2010. Thus, the 2008 text is no longer the actual and official text; the 2010 text is.

 

[Vico]

No, Vico, that’s an older version (from 2008) of the new translation. The version made public in August has three “I believe” statements.

Thank you, that version was from the ICEL music that I posted. I see the March 26, 2010 confirmed version on the USCCB site (usccb.org/romanmissal/peoplesparts.pdf)
has four I believes Prot n. 1464/06/L]. Was there a change made after the March 26, 2010 confirmation?

I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets.

I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins and

I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.

Amen.

 

[japhy]

I see the March 26, 2010 confirmed version on the USCCB site (usccb.org/romanmissal/peoplesparts.pdf)
has four I believes Prot n. 1464/06/L]. Was there a change made after the March 26, 2010 confirmation?

Oh, sorry, I meant “three more 'I believe’s”. Four total, yes.

 

[5Loaves]

SF, Patrick Vallez-Kelly, Director of Worship for the SF Archdiocese was on the second half of Archbishop’s Radio Hour today talking with host Tom Burke about the changes. The program is archived here. He talks about getting the word out, answering some of the questions, thinking about what we’re doing… He says unless people are looking for the information on their own they’re unlikely to be getting information given to them until the final months leading up to changes coming at Advent next year. Revisions for Benedictions, funeral prayers, vigils etc. are far down the road, he says.

I think the interview is a good informal introduction with the host well representing a kind of general curiosity which Pat responds to well, IMHO.

And although the changes for the parts the people pray are small in number, the changes for the priests’ prayers are substantial and in talking with my priest I think he’s quite happy to have plenty of time to get us used to the idea and to get comfortable with the changes himself. Advent 2010 to me would be way too early to implement this. Since the Latin Church liturgical year begins with Advent it makes perfect sense to make the change over in the Roman Rite at the start of the Latin Church year.

 

[benedictgal]

SF, Patrick Vallez-Kelly, Director of Worship for the SF Archdiocese was on the second half of Archbishop’s Radio Hour today talking with host Tom Burke about the changes. The program is archived here. He talks about getting the word out, answering some of the questions, thinking about what we’re doing… He says unless people are looking for the information on their own they’re unlikely to be getting information given to them until the final months leading up to changes coming at Advent next year. Revisions for Benedictions, funeral prayers, vigils etc. are far down the road, he says.

I think the interview is a good informal introduction with the host well representing a kind of general curiosity which Pat responds to well, IMHO.

And although the changes for the parts the people pray are small in number, the changes for the priests’ prayers are substantial and in talking with my priest I think he’s quite happy to have plenty of time to get us used to the idea and to get comfortable with the changes himself. Advent 2010 to me would be way too early to implement this. Since the Latin Church liturgical year begins with Advent it makes perfect sense to make the change over in the Roman Rite at the start of the Latin Church year.

My priest friend wishes that the changes should have been implemented yesterday. I completely agree with him. Part of me thinks that perhaps the publishing houses were the ones contributing go the delay. This Advent could have been feasible. Besides, Australia will be rolling out theirs earlier.

 

[diggerdomer]

Just one “I believe” now.

CREDO VII
(ENGLISH ADAPTATION)
I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was uried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end. And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets. And one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins, and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

I don’t know what you mean. Can you help?

My point is that while the Latin Missal clearly has only one “I believe” the Vatican, for some reason, not in accordance with a strict translation of the Latin, decided to approve in the U.S. there would be three “I believes” while praying the Creed.

 

[Vico]

I don’t know what you mean. Can you help?

My point is that while the Latin Missal clearly has only one “I believe” the Vatican, for some reason, not in accordance with a strict translation of the Latin, decided to approve in the U.S. there would be three “I believes” while praying the Creed.

Japhy corrected me on this. There are four “I believes” in the new Creed translation for 2010. Indeed, I agree with you, that the Holy See did not translate word for word.

 

[japhy]

Indeed, I agree with you, that the Holy See did not translate word for word.

Right, for pastoral and otherwise sensible and sensitive reasons. Some critics noted that the 2008 translation basically had incomplete sentences, like: “And in the Holy Spirit…”

While this was not a matter of concern for the Latin text – and, at first, for the English translation – the final round of editing resolved the issue by supplying the subject and verb implied in the Latin.

 

[malphono]

IMO, the repetition of the first two words (“I believe”) in English translation looks to be more of a linguistic crutch than anything else. If one reads the text as a series of statements of belief, rather than as a narrative, the implication of the “I believe” seems rather clear to me. I don’t see it as a matter of poor grammar (“incomplete sentences”).

Whereas the single “I believe” is clear and easily understood even when vocalizing the text in Latin, (or Syriac or the original Greek, those being the first 3 languages in which the Nicene Creed appeared), it does seem to be a bit of a problem when vocalizing it in English (or in some other modern languages as well).

Just my :twocents: