Again, I am talking about an implicit desire not an explicit desire. A quote other than scripture. THANKS!!Here is a pretty early quote concerning baptism of desire from an ECF:
ST. CYRIL OF JERUSALEM (c. A.D. 350)
If any man does not receive Baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who, even without water, will receive the kingdom…for the Savior calls martyrdom a Baptism (cf. Mark 10:38) …Bearing your sins, you go down into the water; but the calling down of grace seals your soul and does not permit that you afterwards be swallowed up by the fearsome dragon. You go down dead in your sins, and come up made alive in righteousness. (Catechetical Lectures 3:10,12)
I’m not sure where it is first mentioned but doesn’t the concept seem logical?Can someone tell me when an implicit desire (baptism of desire) is first mentioned? I am not talking about someone receiving instruction to become Catholic. I am talking about someone without explicit faith, but an implicit desire to serve God.
Explicit baptism of desire would apply to the criminal on the cross.You can start with Nicodemus, the Good Thief on the Cross, and you can also take a look at the narrative about Cornelius, the Centurion, beginning in Acts 10:1.
I know what it is obviously. I am asking for a quote from a father. Please save the explanations. JUST GIVE THE QUOTE!!! THANKS!!Explicit baptism of desire would apply to the criminal on the cross.
Implicit baptism of desire is when someone sincerely tries to do what is right and in effect follows the teachings of Christ but not realising that and not having the opportunity to learn about him. Such a person may be saved.
Explicit desire for Baptism, resulting in a non-formal Baptism, occurs when a catecumanate who explicitly desires Baptism dies prior to receiving a formal Baptism (even if he does not die as a martyr).Can someone tell me when an implicit desire (baptism of desire) is first mentioned? I am not talking about someone receiving instruction to become Catholic. I am talking about someone without explicit faith, but an implicit desire to serve God.
Can I get a quote?Explicit desire for Baptism, resulting in a non-formal Baptism, occurs when a catecumanate who explicitly desires Baptism dies prior to receiving a formal Baptism (even if he does not die as a martyr).
Implicit desire for Baptism occurs in an adult who loves justice, truth, mercy, who selflessly loves his neighbor, but does not explicitly realize that Baptism is the path to salvation. Perhaps he loves God without realizing it, or perhaps he believes in God, say as a Jew, but not in baptism. He does not explicitly desire Baptism, but implicitly.
In cases of implicit desire for Baptism, the intellect presents, and the will assents, to spiritual goods (love, justice, truth, mercy) which the individual explicitly desires, and which are part of the path to salvation. Since Baptism is the ordinary means to salvation, this constitutes an implicit desire for Baptism.
I wasn’t responding to you. I was responding to Pax.I know what it is obviously. I am asking for a quote from a father. Please save the explanations. JUST GIVE THE QUOTE!!! THANKS!!
Can someone give me a quote please?I wasn’t responding to you. I was responding to Pax.
Think before you comment!!
I would be very surprised if somebody could give you the very first instance of the concept being mentioned.Can someone give me a quote please?
Any quote from the Fathers will do.I would be very surprised if somebody could give you the very first instance of the concept being mentioned.
I’m not surprised. It’s not something that I’d expect most people to have any knowledge of.I really can’t believe no one can answer this question.
Ok just give me the earliest quote then—I know Pius IX mentions invincible ignorance and implicit desire, but prior to that when is it first mentioned. IT IS A PRETTY SIMPLE QUESTION!!! HOW ABOUT AN ANSWER!! THANKS!!!The doctrines of the Church have developed extensively since the time of the early Church Fathers. So we should not expect every doctrine to be found in a quote from a Father.
1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” [62] Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
Why do you put in these capital letters? Its like you are shouting like a little kid who is not getting what he wants!Ok just give me the earliest quote then—I know Pius IX mentions invincible ignorance and implicit desire, but prior to that when is it first mentioned. IT IS A PRETTY SIMPLE QUESTION!!! HOW ABOUT AN ANSWER!! THANKS!!!
It is an unfair question since it requires anyone who responds to consider all the various sources of Church teaching, in chronological order, and find the earliest. It takes only a moment to ask the question, but it takes much research and time to answer it.Ok just give me the earliest quote then—I know Pius IX mentions invincible ignorance and implicit desire, but prior to that when is it first mentioned. IT IS A PRETTY SIMPLE QUESTION!!! HOW ABOUT AN ANSWER!! THANKS!!!
No, Trent is talking about an explicit desire for baptism.It is an unfair question since it requires anyone who responds to consider all the various sources of Church teaching, in chronological order, and find the earliest. It takes only a moment to ask the question, but it takes much research and time to answer it.
So, I’m just going to continue the discussion without stating the earliest example of that point.
The Council of Trent:
“By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated, – as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver [washing] of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.”
The laver of regernation is baptism; notice that the Council also taught a Baptism of desire, i.e. a non-formal Baptism.