Implied accusation of disobedience

[ConstantineTG]

Our little group in the parish had dinner with our pastor today. I’ve had apprehensions about him in the past but tonight things just changed. I got to know him better and find what a wonderful pastor he truly is.

In this issue of disobedience or not, instead of each of becoming our own self appointed canon lawyers. why don’t we spend some time with these priests from both sides. Not just priests who we agree with, but those who we don’t think share our view of Catholicism. Perhaps our eyes will be opened just as mine was tonight.

 

[Canto]

Our little group in the parish had dinner with our pastor today. I’ve had apprehensions about him in the past but tonight things just changed. I got to know him better and find what a wonderful pastor he truly is.

In this issue of disobedience or not, instead of each of becoming our own self appointed canon lawyers. why don’t we spend some time with these priests from both sides. Not just priests who we agree with, but those who we don’t think share our view of Catholicism. Perhaps our eyes will be opened just as mine was tonight.

Priests on all sides must be respected. Now a certain Priest by the name of Pope Benedict prefers us to kneel.

If it’s what the Pope prefers, if it’s the Latin tradtion, if kneeling for God is throughout the OT and NT, why not just let those who wish to kneel, kneel? Why should anyone bring up disobedience?

The Sister who got a pen from Obama for supporting the health care bill, that’s disobedience, not kneeling in the real presence of God under the sacramental veil of the Blessed Sacrament.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Priests on all sides must be respected. Now a certain Priest by the name of Pope Benedict prefers us to kneel.

If it’s what the Pope prefers, if it’s the Latin tradtion, if kneeling for God is throughout the OT and NT, why not just let those who wish to kneel, kneel? Why should anyone bring up disobedience?

The Sister who got a pen from Obama for supporting the health care bill, that’s disobedience, not kneeling in the real presence of God under the sacramental veil of the Blessed Sacrament.

You must realize your Bishop is not the Pope. You cannot disregard your own Bishop and pledge allegiance to the Pope only. Unless of course you are in the Diocese of Rome, and your Bishop is also the Pope. But otherwise, you have to respect the overseer you have been given. We always say, being Catholic is not pick and choose. Why are we picking and choosing then what to obey and what not to obey? Doesn’t mean that you are choosing some other practice within the Church means its okay to disregard your Bishop’s authority.

 

[Canto]

You must realize your Bishop is not the Pope. You cannot disregard your own Bishop and pledge allegiance to the Pope only. Unless of course you are in the Diocese of Rome, and your Bishop is also the Pope. But otherwise, you have to respect the overseer you have been given. We always say, being Catholic is not pick and choose. Why are we picking and choosing then what to obey and what not to obey? Doesn’t mean that you are choosing some other practice within the Church means its okay to disregard your Bishop’s authority.

My Bishop must respect my right to kneel, and he :tiphat: does.

As the song says, love is a two way street. :hug1:

 

[ConstantineTG]

My Bishop must respect my right to kneel, and he :tiphat: does.

As the song says, love is a two way street. :hug1:

I see you are from Australia. I don’t know what is the norm there. Here is Canada, there are no adaptations approved as of yet. So people are free to kneel. However, in the US it is a different case.

 

[Canto]

I see you are from Australia. I don’t know what is the norm there. Here is Canada, there are no adaptations approved as of yet. So people are free to kneel. However, in the US it is a different case.

In OZ the norm is to stand.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I just found that out myself. I Googled the Australian GIRM (approved in 2007, why does Canada doesn’t have one then? )

In Australia standing is the most common posture for receiving Holy Communion. The customary manner of reception is recommended to be followed by all, so that Communion may truly be a sign of unity among those who share in the same table of the Lord. When approaching to receive Holy Communion, the faithful bow in reverence of the Mystery that they are to receive.

 

[Canto]

I just found that out myself. I Googled the Australian GIRM (approved in 2007, why does Canada doesn’t have one then? )

The recomendation (not demand) of our great OZ Bishops does not take away one’s right to kneel.

As for unity, if we all knelt in Australia, like we used to, than that would be a sign of unity too.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The recomendation (not demand) of our great OZ Bishops does not take away one’s right to kneel.

As for unity, if we all knelt in Australia, like we used to, than that would be a sign of unity too.

I do not disagree with that. But that is not what the Bishops ask of you.

 

[ConstantineTG]

In this thread there are those that say, “I follow my Bishop.” There are those that say, “I follow the Pope.” I offer to you today’s reading:

1 Cor 3:1-9

Brothers and sisters,
I could not talk to you as spiritual people,
but as fleshly people, as infants in Christ.
I fed you milk, not solid food,
because you were unable to take it.
Indeed, you are still not able, even now,
for you are still of the flesh.
While there is jealousy and rivalry among you,
are you not of the flesh, and walking
according to the manner of man?
Whenever someone says, “I belong to Paul,” and another,
“I belong to Apollos,” are you not merely men?

What is Apollos, after all, and what is Paul?
Ministers through whom you became believers,
just as the Lord assigned each one.
I planted, Apollos watered, but God caused the growth.
Therefore, neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything,
but only God, who causes the growth.
He who plants and he who waters are one,
and each will receive wages in proportion to his labor.
For we are God’s co-workers;
you are God’s field, God’s building.

 

[Canto]

I do not disagree with that. But that is not what the Bishops ask of you.

The Bishops recomend, but they do not demand
Their recomendation does not take away one’s right to kneel
Wanting to kneel for God does not mean jealousy, rivalry, flesh
I follow my Bishop, using my right to kneel doesn’t negate that

Why such fuss? St Paul did tell us to hold onto the tradtions handed down to us. He did say at the name of Christ every knee should bend - how much more in his real presence.

 

[ProVobis]

Is this bishop being disobedient to his synod for going against the “norms”?

wdtprs.com/blog/2010/05/receiving-communion-the-turf-the-devil-does-not-want-to-give-up-without-a-fight/

 

[bobolink]

Is this bishop being disobedient to his synod for going against the “norms”?

wdtprs.com/blog/2010/05/receiving-communion-the-turf-the-devil-does-not-want-to-give-up-without-a-fight/

No. He is not. He has the right and duty to form his people. If the norms are not spiritual best practice, then he is to be commended for addressing this. Imagine if Bishops had done the same with the abuse cases. Instead, many went along with the prevailing ‘norms’, and we have the mess we have today, in Ireland and elsewhere.

And Pope Benedict made comment about bishop’s conferences. I can’t remember what he said, but I would say that they often weaken the voice and power of bishops who are often happy to hide behind the anonymous face of the conference of catholic bishops, instead of making a bold stand themselves on some issue. Instead, bland, banal, and compromising statements are issued by bishops conferences, who can hardly agree amongst themselves.

EDIT: Here it is:

The problematic nature of Episcopal Conferences was addressed by Cardinal Ratzinger (to be Pope Benedict XVI) in the Ratzinger Report:

“The decisive new emphasis on the role of the bishops is in reality restrained or actually risks being smothered by the insertion of bishops into episcopal conferences that are ever more organized, often with burdensome bureaucratic structures. We must not forget that episcopal conferences have no theological basis, they do not belong to the structure of the Church, as willed by Christ, that cannot be eliminated; they have only a practical, concrete function. …] No episcopal conference, as such, has a teaching mission; its documents have no weight of their own, save that of their consent by the individual bishops.”

This is why attempts to restrict abortion in the United States have failed: The Bishops themselves are divided and the US Bishop’s Conference by acting as a parallel authority has usurped the authority and right of each Ordinary to speak and act on this matter: By resorting to committee, the Bishop’s have abdicated the power and right they have to teach authoritatively in their jurisdiction on the matter. As Our Lord said:

Every kingdom divided against itself shall be made desolate: and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand. MT 12:25.

 

[Famule]

I can see why not.

LOL, you haven’t relied on anything except one impromptu interview you got off of YouTube!

A very Protestant point of view: “I figured out tradition on my own from the original documents, thankyouverymuch, and now I will see if the Church matches up to the expectations I have for it.”

Along with the famous sentence corrections, the putting of words into people’s mouths to attempt to make them look stupid is equally annoying.

 

[ProVobis]

No. He is not. He has the right and duty to form his people. If the norms are not spiritual best practice, then he is to be commended for addressing this. Imagine if Bishops had done the same with the abuse cases. Instead, many went along with the prevailing ‘norms’, and we have the mess we have today, in Ireland and elsewhere.

And Pope Benedict made comment about bishop’s conferences. I can’t remember what he said, but I would say that they often weaken the voice and power of bishops who are often happy to hide behind the anonymous face of the conference of catholic bishops, instead of making a bold stand themselves on some issue. Instead, bland, banal, and compromising statements are issued by bishops conferences, who can hardly agree amongst themselves.

EDIT: Here it is:

A good post with real substance. Thanks.

 

[zab]

No. He is not. He has the right and duty to form his people. If the norms are not spiritual best practice, then he is to be commended for addressing this. Imagine if Bishops had done the same with the abuse cases. Instead, many went along with the prevailing ‘norms’, and we have the mess we have today, in Ireland and elsewhere.

First of all, do not assume that I and all who believe it is proper to follow the directives set by the bishops in regard to posture when receiving Communion are saying that the pope is being disobedient by requiring people to kneel (at the aid of a prie dieu) when they receive Communion from him. Are prie dieu’s set up for all of the other people receiving Communion at a papal Mass? If not, why not? Do you think they would prefer a choice of standing rather than receiving Communion from the pope?

 

[zab]

Is this bishop being disobedient to his synod for going against the “norms”?

wdtprs.com/blog/2010/05/receiving-communion-the-turf-the-devil-does-not-want-to-give-up-without-a-fight/

Who is it really that is raising all of the questions of disobedience? Not I, and not others who believe that we should maintain a posture of unity as our bishops have requested of us. If one feels uncomfortable wondering what everyone else is thinking because of their choice, that is their problem.

 

[DavidPalm]

Who is it really that is raising all of the questions of disobedience? Not I, and not others who believe that we should maintain a posture of unity as our bishops have requested of us. If one feels uncomfortable wondering what everyone else is thinking because of their choice, that is their problem.

Just FWIW, my wife and I were once denied Holy Communion for kneeling, very publicly and very loudly. After this, we were indeed branded “disobedient” by certain Catholics. So it’s not just what we “think” might be happening–it happens.

This is the stance taken by the CDW which has jurisdiction in this matter:

As the authority by virtue of whose recognitio the norm in question has attained the force of law, this Dicastery is competent to specify the manner in which the norm is to be understood for the sake of a proper application. Having received more than a few letters regarding this matter from different locations in the United States of America, the Congregation wishes to ensure that its position on the matter is clear.

To this end, it is perhaps useful to respond to your inquiry by repeating the content of a letter that the Congregation recently addressed to a Bishop in the United States of America from whose Diocese a number of pertinent letters had been received. The letter states: “… while this Congregation gave the recognitio to the norm desired by the Bishops’ Conference of your country that people stand for Holy Communion, this was done on the condition that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds. Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion”. Congregation de Cultu Divino et Disciplina Sacramentorum, Prot. n. 47 / 03 / L ]

It seems very clear to me that this is not only the Holy See’s official position, it is also the position that Rome adopts in practice, including the Holy Father’s own example even in countries where standing is the norm. Let’s have it one more time:

“Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion.”

For your edification, here is a wonderful true story, from a good friend of mine:

Kneel: A Eucharistic Healing

 

[zab]

Just FWIW, my wife and I were once denied Holy Communion for kneeling, very publicly and very loudly. After this, we were indeed branded “disobedient” by certain Catholics. So it’s not just what we “think” might be happening–it happens.

This is the stance taken by the CDW which has jurisdiction in this matter:
As the authority by virtue of whose recognitio the norm in question has attained the force of law, this Dicastery is competent to specify the manner in which the norm is to be understood for the sake of a proper application. Having received more than a few letters regarding this matter from different locations in the United States of America, the Congregation wishes to ensure that its position on the matter is clear.

To this end, it is perhaps useful to respond to your inquiry by repeating the content of a letter that the Congregation recently addressed to a Bishop in the United States of America from whose Diocese a number of pertinent letters had been received. The letter states: “… while this Congregation gave the recognitio to the norm desired by the Bishops’ Conference of your country that people stand for Holy Communion, this was done on the condition that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds. Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion”. Congregation de Cultu Divino et Disciplina Sacramentorum, Prot. n. 47 / 03 / L ]
It seems very clear to me that this is not only the Holy See’s official position, it is also the position that Rome adopts in practice, including the Holy Father’s own example even in countries where standing is the norm. Let’s have it one more time:

“Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion.”

For your edification, here is a wonderful true story, from a good friend of mine:

Kneel: A Eucharistic Healing

Yes, David,
unfortunately it does happen and has already been stated and not denied that the CDWDS has made that clarification. But than does not mean that those of us who do follow the norm are accusing everyone else of being disobedient.

 

[malphono]

unfortunately it does happen and has already been stated and not denied that the CDWDS has made that clarification. But than does not mean that those of us who do follow the norm are accusing everyone else of being disobedient.

No, not all do, and while I may have missed it, I don’t see that anyone has made that accusation. However, what does often happen is that people get carried away (a) with the concept of conformity to whatever the “episcopal conference” establishes as a “norm” and (b) with the concept of “norm” itself, thereby neglecting the fact that “norm” does not mean “rule” or “law” or anything close. Those who insist that persons who do not follow the “norm” of standing for communion are disobedient and/or disruptive are simply wrong.