Implied accusation of disobedience

[Corki]

I assumed he meant the new English translation. From what I have heard, it is an improvement over the current one.

I was half-kidding. I think the new translation will be an improvement but it doesn’t really change anything in the OF itself – just the words in the English vernacular.

 

[Student09]

Her logic is flawed - there is clearly a difference between not wanting to receive from a layperson because they do not have the sacrament of Holy Orders and not wanting to receive from a layperson because you don’t like them personally. I think her personal experience was clouding her judgment. Instead of worrying about it, pray for her.

 

[MarkThompson]

He actually consulted a canon lawyer in answering the question.

Notice he did not tell you the canon lawyer’s own opinion of the issue.

What are the reasons for this norm?

Personally, I think it’s a lame norm and that the reasons – which I assume are, mostly, to facilitate movement and to meet the parameters of a church without altar rails – are not very good ones. It needs to be said, though, that a norm promulgated for lame reasons is not somehow less valid thereby, as Father Z regrettably seems to suggest. The issues of (1) what are the reasons for the norm, (2) do I like the norm, and (3) what is the norm, and what is its authority, need to be kept conceptually separate.

Not true. How am I guilty of disobedience if the priest or bishop attempts to issue an order that he has no authority to issue?

The priests or bishops do not have the authority to withhold Communion as punishment for kneeling or as an enticement to stand up. The bishops’ conference does, however, have the authority to determine whether the posture for communicating will be kneeling or standing. Just because priests cannot enforce that posture by punishing you for going your own way does not take away from the fact that the normative posture was authoritatively determined.

Feel free to join the discussion in this thread about kneeling for Communion. I won’t drag ConserativeOne’s thread here farther away from his original topic.

 

[ConvertaKat]

Floresco,

I think that the dear sister in Christ you sought to “correct” you is simply a busybody who would find fault in what you or anyone does just to have something to harp on…in a nice way of course!

I agree with some of the other posters, bless the old girl and let it go.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Sadly, most OFs are so poorly attended it is quite easy to slip out of a superfluous EMHC’s line and into a priest’s. I do it everytime.

Have stats for this or another made up statistic? Most OF Masses I have been to are brim full of people, standing room only. I think my current parish is the only one that isn’t that because the neighborhood we live in has 2 parishes close by to each other, and a third one not far off. And the other two have attached schools where registered parishioners get discounts for the school, which I think is whats working against our parish in terms of parishioners. We do own a school but a past parish pastor decided to lease out the school instead and the parishioners do not get any sort of discount with that school.

 

[ConstantineTG]

This weekend I attended the local parish’s OF with my family. I was sitting next to a very sweet lady who has noticed that I only receive Communion from the priest and was clearly concerned about me. After Mass she asked me about why I do this. I told her both my practical reason and my theological one. I receive on the tongue and kneeling which few EMoCs have been trained to expect. It would be awkward at best and, at worst, the Blessed Sacrament might fall. My theological reason is a wish to acknowledge the special link between the Sacraments of Ordination and Eucharist.

The concerned lady did not respond directly to what I said but told me a story about a time she had been tempted to not receive Communion from an Extraordinary Minister (because she didn’t like him) but she knew that it was important to be obedient so she did it anyhow. Her point seemed to be that I should stop my “disobedience” and receive Communion from lay people. Since she was so clearly well-meaning, I just smiled and thanked her, but it is a bit depressing to know that people think of me as disobedient to the Church.

Obedience is a tough thing. Its the ultimate test of humility. There’s a lot of things that would go into obeying someone. First is the recognition of authority, do you recognize and respect the authority of the person telling you what to do? Second is trust, do you trust the person in authority that what they say is for the good of all. Third is of course humility, can you be humble enough to accept what you are being told despite what your personal opinion on the matter is?

If St. Andrew or St. Philip would come up to you right now and tell you not to kneel, would you follow what they say? Don’t forget that the Bishops are the successors of the Apostles. They have the authority of the Apostles passed down to them. Right or wrong, they are our pastors, our elders, and we should follow what they tell us to do. People here will say they cannot face Jesus in Heaven and explain why they didn’t kneel when they think they should have, in front of Him. But aren’t we also afraid that Jesus might ask why we didn’t follow these people whom He himself has authorized and has called into service?

The USCCB by authority granted to them, has decided that standing is the norm in the US for Communion for the OF. Do we follow the Apostles, or do we follow ourselves? As good Christians we should know the answer.

 

[FirstCalled]

The perfect solution is when at the OF of the mass, don’t receive. You’re only obligated to receive once a year during lent. If you feel uncomfortable receiving standing up and from from an EMHC then wait till you attend a liturgy in which you can be most reverent. Maybe you’d rather receive from an EMHC than not but seriously if you don’t want to support it you can abstain.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The perfect solution is when at the OF of the mass, don’t receive. You’re only obligated to receive once a year during lent. If you feel uncomfortable receiving standing up and from from an EMHC then wait till you attend a liturgy in which you can be most reverent. Maybe you’d rather receive from an EMHC than not but seriously if you don’t want to support it you can abstain.

A lot of pride on this post.
Why do we make little what the Church has approved? Can we not submit ourselves to the authority of the Church in what she has decided? Why do we think we know better than the Church?

Apologies for being straight forward. But really that is not the right disposition one should have.

 

[Ockham]

Have stats for this or another made up statistic?

What made up stats?

 

[Ockham]

I was half-kidding. I think the new translation will be an improvement but it doesn’t really change anything in the OF itself – just the words in the English vernacular.

Yes, the new OF revision and a general improvement on following the rubics. From what I’m seeing globally the new generation of priests and bishops are less inclined to play fast and loose with the liturgy.

 

[ProVobis]

I was half-kidding. I think the new translation will be an improvement but it doesn’t really change anything in the OF itself – just the words in the English vernacular.

A little off topic but I think it’s an improvement in two respects:

(1) to (re)instate some needed discipline in the English Mass;

(2) to remind us that Latin is still the basis for the Mass.

That said it should be remembered that no translation is a perfect one and it is still good to keep as much Latin in the Mass as possible. Avoid controversial translations where they arise. The Mass is too precious to leave to interpretations.

Back to the topic, I agree with Father Z. My pastor encourages use of the communion rail to everyone, both in the OF and EF.

 

[ProVobis]

The perfect solution is when at the OF of the mass, don’t receive. You’re only obligated to receive once a year during lent. If you feel uncomfortable receiving standing up and from from an EMHC then wait till you attend a liturgy in which you can be most reverent. Maybe you’d rather receive from an EMHC than not but seriously if you don’t want to support it you can abstain.

Makes sense to me. Part of being properly disposed on receiving is that you’re entirely focused on Whom you’re receiving. If EMHC’s or anything else (fight with the spouse, etc.) distracts you to the point you can’t focus on that, then it seems the right thing to do is not to receive.

 

[ProVobis]

Have stats for this or another made up statistic? Most OF Masses I have been to are brim full of people, standing room only.

The only places where I’ve seen standing room only in the English Mass is in places after they’ve consolidated the Masses or parishes. Perhaps you should compare the total attendance today against the total attendance of 30 years ago of all US and Canadian parishes. And not only at Easter and Christmas.

 

[Corki]

The perfect solution is when at the OF of the mass, don’t receive. You’re only obligated to receive once a year during lent. If you feel uncomfortable receiving standing up and from from an EMHC then wait till you attend a liturgy in which you can be most reverent. Maybe you’d rather receive from an EMHC than not but seriously if you don’t want to support it you can abstain.

Actually the precept of the Church is to receive during the Easter season.

 

[Cristiano]

This weekend I attended the local parish’s OF with my family. I was sitting next to a very sweet lady who has noticed that I only receive Communion from the priest and was clearly concerned about me. After Mass she asked me about why I do this. I told her both my practical reason and my theological one. I receive on the tongue and kneeling which few EMoCs have been trained to expect. It would be awkward at best and, at worst, the Blessed Sacrament might fall. My theological reason is a wish to acknowledge the special link between the Sacraments of Ordination and Eucharist.

The concerned lady did not respond directly to what I said but told me a story about a time she had been tempted to not receive Communion from an Extraordinary Minister (because she didn’t like him) but she knew that it was important to be obedient so she did it anyhow. Her point seemed to be that I should stop my “disobedience” and receive Communion from lay people. Since she was so clearly well-meaning, I just smiled and thanked her, but it is a bit depressing to know that people think of me as disobedient to the Church.

I commend you for your kindness to the woman by trying to instruct her and by letting her be when she was firm in her thinking. Your charity will make her think that maybe her understanding might not be completely correct. Charity is like the slow water that shapes the stones.

You comment also proves my point that most of the people that attend only the EF only should move their behinds and join OF parishes and get involved as catechists there. If we truly believe that orthodoxy is being lost then we need to educate the children and help them to understand what to true teachings are. Parents, even those who you would call cafeteria Catholics, seek traditional catechists. Please people help these parents in raising orthodox children.

 

[Corki]

You comment also proves my point that most of the people that attend only the EF only should move their behinds and join OF parishes and get involved as catechists there. If we truly believe that orthodoxy is being lost then we need to educate the children and help them to understand what to true teachings are. **Parents, even those who you would call cafeteria Catholics, seek traditional catechists. **Please people help these parents in raising orthodox children.

I just want to echo the bolded section above. I happened to attend a class this weekend for Catechists. I had been a student with the instructor before and she is not exactly orthodox in her personal beliefs so I was a little leery of her as an instructor. But one of the first things she said was that Catechists must reflect the **actual teaching **of the Church regardless of personal opinons. We have to set our children on solid ground, not sand.

 

[OraLabora]

Yes, the new OF revision and a general improvement on following the rubics. From what I’m seeing globally the new generation of priests and bishops are less inclined to play fast and loose with the liturgy.

Anecdotally, I’m inclined to agree. In the diocese where our choir sings (Gregorian chant, OF only), the most “orthodox” priest is also the youngest (I live on the border of two dioceses, and since I love chant, I sing in the next diocese, where there is a schola, and not mine).

Other priests give him a really hard time. Why? because he insists on following the missal to the letter. He saves his innovations for his homily… and the big innovation in his homilies: they are theologically sound, not watered down pap. He is the only priest I have heard, since returning to the Church in 1997, who addressed sexual ethics in a clear and sound manner, by defining what chastity meant to him as a priest, and what it means for both the unmarried and the married. This was last year. Imagine that, in 12 years of faithful weekly Mass attendance, it was the first honest homily on sexual ethics.

 

[ConstantineTG]

What made up stats?

You said the OF is poorly attended. I’d like to see stats that prove that. Unless you’re pointing to something locally then I will rest my case. But if you are implying that in the entire world the OF is poorly attended, then you have to back that up with a facts because that is a misleading claim.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The only places where I’ve seen standing room only in the English Mass is in places after they’ve consolidated the Masses or parishes. Perhaps you should compare the total attendance today against the total attendance of 30 years ago of all US and Canadian parishes. And not only at Easter and Christmas.

That is what I am asking for. Where are the stats to base such claims?

 

[floresco]

Floresco,

I think that the dear sister in Christ you sought to “correct” you is simply a busybody who would find fault in what you or anyone does just to have something to harp on…in a nice way of course!

No, she isn’t that sort of person. I’m sure she was speaking out of genuine concern for me.