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Annabelle_Marie
Guest
So…I’m guessing you didn’t see my line that said “your feelings are not breaking any church laws…”? I’m going to assume that you did.
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Vico
Guest
I believe you are in accord with the instructions given in Sacramentum Caritatis (2007) of H.H. Pope Benedict XVI. In Sacramentum Caritatis, Pope Benedict XVI explains the connection between Eucharist and Holy Orders in a few ways, that the priest and bishop:
- presides in the person of Christ the Head
- acts in the name of the whole Church when presenting to God the prayer of the Church
- acts in the name of the whole Church when offering the eucharistic sacrafice
Motu Proprio – Omnium in Mentum of H.H. Pope Benedict XVI (Dec 2009) introduced a new canon law, to be effective soon after it gets published in AAS. Due to Lumen Gentium 29 of Vatican II, 1581 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church was edited, so finally the canon law is being updated.
Lumen Gentium 29 (Vatican II):
- At a lower level of the hierarchy are deacons, upon whom hands are imposed “not unto the priesthood, but unto a ministry of service.”(74*) For strengthened by sacramental grace, in communion with the bishop and his group of priests they serve in the diaconate of the liturgy, of the word, and of charity to the people of God. It is the duty of the deacon, according as it shall have been assigned to him by competent authority, to administer baptism solemnly,** to be custodian and dispenser of the Eucharist**, to assist at and bless marriages in the name of the Church, to bring Viaticum to the dying, to read the Sacred Scripture to the faithful, to instruct and exhort the people, to preside over the worship and prayer of the faithful, to administer sacramentals, to officiate at funeral and burial services. Dedicated to duties of charity and of administration, let deacons be mindful of the admonition of Blessed Polycarp: “Be merciful, diligent, walking according to the truth of the Lord, who became the servant of all.”(75*)
Catechism (second editon)
**CCC 1581 **This sacrament configures the recipient to Christ by a special grace of the Holy Spirit, so that he may serve as Christ’s instrument for his Church. By ordination one is enabled to act as a representative of Christ, Head of the Church, in his triple office of priest, prophet, and king.
**CCC 1588 **With regard to deacons, "strengthened by sacramental grace they are dedicated to the People of God, in conjunction with the bishop and his body of priests, in the service (diakonia) of the liturgy, of the Gospel, and of works of charity.
New Canon
CIC Canon 1009 § 3:
“Those who made the order of the episcopate or priesthood receive the mission and the ability to act in the person of Christ the head, but deacons are empowered to serve the people of God in the diaconate of the liturgy, word and charity”
Italian:
“Coloro che sono costituiti nell’ordine dell’episcopato o del presbiterato ricevono la missione e la facoltà di agire nella persona di Cristo Capo, i diaconi invece vengono abilitati a servire il popolo di Dio nella diaconia della liturgia, della parola e della carità”.
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Annabelle_Marie
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I meant I’m going to assume that you did not see that.
Those are my personal feelings about picking and choosing. I’m going into RCIA so I’m trying to pick things up…and I just see so many people say…“I feel this way”…we should not act like we are coodoning a legitimate church practice. Not you per se but others in this thread. How is this kind of picking and choosing different from other types who pick and choose amongst other church teachings?
I thought we are not supposed to go off our “feelings”
I’m talking about your post…not CITH or kneeling/standing that the post is getting off topic on…
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Famule
Guest
Cardinal Arinze says in the video that kneeling is the traditional form and that the options are kneeling or standing and the individual conferences vote on it otherwise they kneel. And even if standing is voted in, communicants may still kneel.
Sounds like a norm to me. Whether they pick kneeling or standing, kneeling is always there. If they don’t pick, then it defaults to kneeling. Or is Cardinal Arinze wrong Mark?
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MarkThompson
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Yes, it’s traditional (and my preference too), but it is not normative in the Mass of Paul VI. “Traditional” does not imply “universal default norm.”
This is not true. In Canada, for instance, no special adaptation has yet been approved – apparently the bishops’ conference lumped in their GIRM 160 adaptation with a whole raft of other requested adaptations to the GIRM, which the Vatican has never gotten around to acting on – and people either stand or kneel. From what I know, standing is actually more common.
If that’s what’s been proposed and approved for the locality.
I wouldn’t hold him to absolute specifics based on an off-the-cuff YouTube interview. Really, I think you’re just reading too much into a couple of phrases. So, for instance, he said that kneeling is “traditional,” but he never claimed it is a universal norm. He said that people should not be bothered if they kneel, but he was speaking to an American audience, and that’s what our GIRM affirms in the first place, even as it specifies that the liturgical norm is to stand. His Eminence did not, of course, say that, in places where the bishops have established a norm of standing, kneeling somehow remains “licit,” “permitted,” etc.
But if he say, as you relate, that, in the absence of approved norms, it “defaults” to a requirement of kneeling (which I don’t think he did, but I haven’t bothered to re-watch the interview this evening), that would indeed be wrong.
So as far as I know, the incorrect claims that occasionally circulate that standing is an indult or kneeling is a universal norm have their basis in either (1) mistakenly equating the issue with COTT/CITH, where truly COTT is the universal norm and CITH is an indult, or (2) misunderstanding some remarks Cardinal Arinze once gave extemporaneously.
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Canto
Guest
Read through the tread and wanted to comment on kneeling which came up, but I think it also sheds some light on other issues.
The CDWDS has said a zillion times we are free to kneel. Cardinal Arinze noted kneeling Catholics should be left in peace not in pieces.
But are such Catholics being disobedient?
CDWDS Prot. n. 1322/02/L: Priests should understand that the Congregation will regard future complaints [being denined HC for kneeling] of this nature with great seriousness, and if they are verified, it intends to seek disciplinary action consonant with the gravity of the pastoral abuse.
So why such penalties for the priest if a communicant is being disobedient by not standing.
Cardinal Arinze explaining R.S. says
-People are free to kneel even if the Bishops petition for standing.
-No one has the right to say you are being dissobedient
-Priest should say nothing about you kneeling, give you Communion and move to the next communicant
-Kneeling is the tradtional and preffered form in the Latin Rite
Source: youtube.com/watch?v=Ap1KL2D5ae4&feature=related
Here is a video of Cardinal Arinze speaking of kneeling being the norm in Nigeria and how quicker and convienient it is esp making sure people consume and don’t go off with the host. He also talks about using the patten and not using it and fragments dropping to the floor and being trampled on. He talks about other things so please do watch.
youtube.com/watch?v=0aZOhbCdfwY
God Bless.
The CDWDS has said a zillion times we are free to kneel. Cardinal Arinze noted kneeling Catholics should be left in peace not in pieces.
But are such Catholics being disobedient?
CDWDS Prot. n. 1322/02/L: Priests should understand that the Congregation will regard future complaints [being denined HC for kneeling] of this nature with great seriousness, and if they are verified, it intends to seek disciplinary action consonant with the gravity of the pastoral abuse.
So why such penalties for the priest if a communicant is being disobedient by not standing.
Cardinal Arinze explaining R.S. says
-People are free to kneel even if the Bishops petition for standing.
-No one has the right to say you are being dissobedient
-Priest should say nothing about you kneeling, give you Communion and move to the next communicant
-Kneeling is the tradtional and preffered form in the Latin Rite
Source: youtube.com/watch?v=Ap1KL2D5ae4&feature=related
Here is a video of Cardinal Arinze speaking of kneeling being the norm in Nigeria and how quicker and convienient it is esp making sure people consume and don’t go off with the host. He also talks about using the patten and not using it and fragments dropping to the floor and being trampled on. He talks about other things so please do watch.
youtube.com/watch?v=0aZOhbCdfwY
God Bless.
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Canto
Guest
EMHC are allowed under certain circumstances by the Church
But the Church does not say one must recieve from them
So if you respect that EMHC are allowed (under certain circumstances) but prefer to recieve from a priest, then there is no disobedience. If you don’t make a scene, what’s the problem.
I would imagine people have their thoughs and eyes elswhere than to watch how and from whom someone recieves Christ.
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ProVobis
Guest
One thing that’s been overlooked so far in this thread is the canon law of 1983 and how it applies to custom: (the custom in this case being communion kneeling from a priest)
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Matthew_Holford
Guest
If standing to receive Holy Communion in the USA is a particular law promulgated by USCCB and if those who kneel are being disobedient what is/has USCCB done to correct those who are being disobedient. There are many posts in this thread discussing the technicalities but if a law was made what is the legislator’s (USCCB) stance on the issue?
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Canto
Guest
Firstly those who kneel are not being disobedient
Secondly those who kneel in the US are supposed to be catechised as to why the change from kneeling to standing
Thirdly the above seems to be left to individual priests with no unifrom response from the USCCB
US GIRM #160 The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm. When receiving Holy Communion, the communicant bows his or her head before the Sacrament as a gesture of reverence and receives the Body of the Lord from the minister.
The above is a US adaption not in the Latin GIRM.
If one does not bow are they being disobedient?
Do priests provide those who do not bow with proper catechesis for the reasons as to why the GIRM asks for bowing?
Ditto for the patten (Communion plate) when the faithful recieve Holy Communion and various other examples
Standing for the US was granted provied those who wish to continue the prior US practice, and Latin Tradtion, of kneeling are not denied.
If it is disobedient, why would the CDWDS allow people to contionue the former and (according to Cardinal Arinze) prefered practice?
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Canto
Guest
Disobedience?
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ProVobis
Guest
These are excellent. The latter shows the Cardinal very strong in favor of the communion rail and even recommending that people don’t get up immediately upon receiving. He even explains the Church’s reasons for allowing two communions per day.
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MarkThompson
Guest
Why don’t you tell us what norms the Portuguese bishops’ conference has established, and then we’ll see?
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Famule
Guest
“Alright, approved, but on condition. That those who want to kneel are left in peace.” -Cardinal Arinze
“Even if the bishops have chosen standing, those who want to kneel are free to kneel.” - Cardinal Arinze
He says the bishops of each country. He is speaking to an American audience about something the applies everywhere.
“We must ratify it before it becomes effective, otherwise, they just kneel.” -Cardinal Arinze.
Please provide documentation to show that Cardinal Arinze is wrong as you have stated.
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DavidPalm
Guest
I believe this document demonstrates that standing is in fact the product of an indult. Notice that permission had to be extended by the CDW for standing, demonstrating that the norm in the Latin Rite is kneeling:
Another fundamental right of the faithful, as noted in canon 213, is “the right to receive assistance by the sacred Pastors from the spiritual goods of the Church, especially the word of God and the Sacraments”. In view of the law that “sacred” ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who opportunely ask for them, are properly disposed and are not prohibited by law from receiving them" (canon 843 ß 1), there should be no such refusal to any Catholic who presents himself for Holy Communion at Mass, except in cases presenting a danger of grave scandal to other believers arising out of the person’s unrepented public sin or obstinate heresy or schism, publicly professed or declared. Even where the Congregation has approved of legislation denoting standing as the posture for Holy Communion, in accordance with the adaptations permitted to the Conferences of Bishops by the Institution Generalis Missalis Romani n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds. (Congregation de Cultu Divino et Disciplina Sacramentorum, Prot. n. 1322/02/L; my emphasis.)
Another fundamental right of the faithful, as noted in canon 213, is “the right to receive assistance by the sacred Pastors from the spiritual goods of the Church, especially the word of God and the Sacraments”. In view of the law that “sacred” ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who opportunely ask for them, are properly disposed and are not prohibited by law from receiving them" (canon 843 ß 1), there should be no such refusal to any Catholic who presents himself for Holy Communion at Mass, except in cases presenting a danger of grave scandal to other believers arising out of the person’s unrepented public sin or obstinate heresy or schism, publicly professed or declared. Even where the Congregation has approved of legislation denoting standing as the posture for Holy Communion, in accordance with the adaptations permitted to the Conferences of Bishops by the Institution Generalis Missalis Romani n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds. (Congregation de Cultu Divino et Disciplina Sacramentorum, Prot. n. 1322/02/L; my emphasis.)
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ProVobis
Guest
All these seem to be consistent with canon law. (See post #102.) I’m not a canon lawyer but I can see that defined new norms are not defined customs (yet) which are protected by canon law. That said, I wish Fr. Z would have elaborated on what exactly his canon lawyers told him.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Note that standing as a norm is mandated by the USCCB and only for the territories they control. Pope Benedict who is also the local Bishop of the Diocese of Rome, can implement a different standard in his diocese. If the Pope intended this for the entire Church, the law would change. At this time, the law is still the same.
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ProVobis
Guest
I believe canon law still trumps new norms set.
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ConstantineTG
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Which canon law?
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MarkThompson
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Well, in Canada there are no approved adaptations to the GIRM, yet many people stand. I don’t know what “documentation” you could want; just ask someone from Canada. So, you’re either misinterpreting what Cardinal Arinze said, or he misspoke. Sorry, Famule.
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