Implied accusation of disobedience

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There’s a simple solution for dealing with priests who have a problem with people kneeling for communion, have women assisting with the distribution of communion, spout extreme left wing politics from the pulpit, have altar girls, etc. Go to another church.
 
Calling for ‘more catechesis’ when you’ve taken out educational elements like receiving the Body Of Christ on your knees, without touching it, is just short-sighted or disingenuous.

Learn by doing. It’s faster, simpler and more memorable.
It was Disobedience played a big part in all of the abuses that crept into the Church throughout the 60’s, 70’s 80’s and even going on in places today, not humble obedience. And now it seems that there is a more widespread ignorance of the virtue of obedience among well-intentioned Catholics who sincerely want to show reverence to our Blessed Lord. I have noticed this among a crowd that follows a certain unapproved apparition as well. I am baseing my impression on comments that have been posted on the internet. It is difficult to have a meaningful conversation with those who do not understand the virtue of obedience.
 
I don’t have anything to add to what Mark said. There’s nothing from the Pope or CDWDS that contradicts what the Bishops have done and implements. You must understand that they work together, not against each other. The Pope will not just pull rank just because he can. I keep saying this over and over. The Pope is our source of unity, not division. He wouldn’t give the Bishop authority then take it away without due process or just reason.
I’m in the airport heading for China, but I’ve got a few minutes here…

Okay, well we’re clearly at loggerheads, then. The CDWDS interpretation of the permission to implement standing could not be more clear to me. I kneel with a clear conscience. I agree that the CDW and the Pope aren’t at odds. think you and others may find it worthwhile to reflect on what others have said about the nature of “norms”.

God bless,
 
CITH, standing, can certainly be criticised because of what it replaced for the majority of Roman Catholics and how it replaced it.

I’d argue it is part of an iconoclasm that has changed attitudes to abortion. Major swingeing ‘reforms’ to R.C. rites plus a major swing to ‘buddy Jesus’ and ‘we don’t know if anyone is in Hell’ equals a ‘faithful’ who don’t know their religion and aren’t too worried about it.

Thus, abortion legislation in previously Christian societies. Because Jesus will forgive you. Because ‘we don’t know if anyone is in Hell’.** Because we can now follow our conscience. Because the central rite of our religion has shifted focus from propitiating God to ‘celebrating’. So why worry? You’re as good as saved. **

Calling for ‘more catechesis’ when you’ve taken out educational elements like receiving the Body Of Christ on your knees, without touching it, is just short-sighted or disingenuous.

Learn by doing. It’s faster, simpler and more memorable.
If truth be told, we can criticize anything want. No one is going to stop us. It’s like a law suit. The law says that I can sue if I don’t like someone’s nose too.

My mission and mandate as a friar is to teach the laity what is helpful and what is holy according to the mind of current Church teaching and that of St. Francis. That’s what I’m doing here. In fact, it’s my only reason for being here. If the laity does not want to learn from us, there is not much that we can do.

The first fact is that abortion has nothing to do with the way that people receive Holy Communion. Abortion has been around since the creation of Adam. The fact that is has become legal in many nations is an independent phenomenon from the posture for receiving Holy Communion. Do not take an issue of moral justice and turn it into a liturgical issue, because it is not.

Secondly, most of us find thewe can move ahead in the spiritual life with Communion while standing. It is not an impediment for our growth in the life of grace, contemplation, silence, discipline, penance and the perfection of charity. Once we take the focus off of what others doe and place it on what we must do to pray and to reach contemplation, we find that we begin to move forward.

There is often too much attention being paid to what others are doing and not enough being paid to what we, as individuals, should be doing. The key questions in the life of every person of faith are:
  • Do I worship?
  • Do I receive the sacraments?
  • Do I spend time in prayer?
  • Do I spend time with the scriptures?
  • Do I avoid sin and strive to practice virtue?
  • Do I do penance for my sins and those who do not do penance?
  • Do I draw into the life of silence and solitude or am I too engaged in the affairs of others?
  • Do I strive to meet Christ in the poorest of the poor and the most vulnerable members of society to quench his thirst?
  • Am I a faithful son or daughter of the Church, even when I disagree?
  • Am I faithful to my vocation or state in life?
Anything outside of that is for those times of day and week we have nothing better to do. But if we really focus on these ten points, it should keep us very busy. Some of these things we can combine. That’s why I suggest that for every post that you place here on Holy Communion or the mass, you do the suffering Christ the great charity of writing a letter to end abortion and send it to some political leader in any country. Imagine the impact that would have. Imagine the witness value to those who are non-believers.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I’m in the airport heading for China, but I’ve got a few minutes here…

Okay, well we’re clearly at loggerheads, then. The CDWDS interpretation of the permission to implement standing could not be more clear to me. I kneel with a clear conscience. I agree that the CDW and the Pope aren’t at odds. think you and others may find it worthwhile to reflect on what others have said about the nature of “norms”.

God bless,
No, you are not getting what I said. The CDWDS and the Pope cannot be at odds because the CDWDS is an office of the Pope. They act on the Pope’s authority and if they Pope doesn’t say so, the CDWDS cannot do anything.

I said the Pope and the Bishops, as in the Diocesan Bishops around the world, are united. That is why they are in Communion with the Pope in the first place. Communion means to be of like mind, and this is not only in matters of the faith, but also of matters of policy within the Church.

I guess you have to take a step back and move away from your own convictions and read the letter of the law without bias. Because there is nothing in there that elevates kneeling into the norm where Bishops have chosen otherwise. With the law, you have to be careful with the wordings. You have to read it slowly and understand every word. Sometimes two sentences can be 95% alike, and only differentiate in one word, and that one word makes a world of difference.
 
I want to make sure I’m understanding this right; you’re comparing allowing attitude of COTH and not receiving on your knees to the attitude of abortion?
I’m saying that a religion that does not instill a) Proper awe of that which is Holy and b) Proper fear of going to Hell, offers less and less resistance to Satanic things like abortion. What’s to fear, if you’re guaranteed salvation?

Changing from COTT, kneeling, from a priest, to CITH, standing, from a laywoman is part of that desacralisation process. Previously, handling the Host was taboo. Now, it’s not.

Imagine you’re not a Catholic, for a moment. You’re Orthodox. You see the Roman Catholics wrecking their sanctuaries, letting unvested laywomen into the sanctuary, blanding out their liturgy and, get this,** revising all of their other sacraments as well, even Extreme Unction(!) …** It looks very dubious, even crazy.

Liberals are trying to square the circle: Making more and more mundane changes to our religious rites while still expecting to evoke the same, or greater, awe and respect. **Time to wind the experiment up and get back to seeking sanctity by the Grace of God through traditional, solemn, mystical, God-oriented rites. **
 
No, you are not getting what I said. The CDWDS and the Pope cannot be at odds because the CDWDS is an office of the Pope. They act on the Pope’s authority and if they Pope doesn’t say so, the CDWDS cannot do anything.
So how can the bishops disapprove a lawful churchwide practice, when the very condition of the approval to stand specifies that no one can be denied communion kneeling in that country? I don’t see some of the points made here. Compare this with a Holyday of Obligation dispensation. I can still attend Mass that day; would I be disobeying if I did?
 
So how can the bishops disapprove a lawful churchwide practice, when the very condition of the approval to stand specifies that no one can be denied communion kneeling in that country? I don’t see some of the points made here. Compare this with a Holyday of Obligation dispensation. I can still attend Mass that day; would I be disobeying if I did?
A dispensation does not set a norm What the Bishops did was set a norm, and this is in compliance with the authority given to them by the Vatican itself. A dispensation means you are excused from an obligation. We have no obligation to kneel. And standing is set as a norm, not as an exception to kneel.
 
There’s a simple solution for dealing with priests who have a problem with people kneeling for communion, have women assisting with the distribution of communion, spout extreme left wing politics from the pulpit, have altar girls, etc. Go to another church.
Preferably one with a communion rail.
 
I want to make sure I’m understanding this right; you’re comparing allowing attitude of COTH and not receiving on your knees to the attitude of abortion?
Maybe I should let the poster speak for himself, but I’m guessing the attitude being referred to is one of not wanting to “go back” or “go backwards.” Don’t forget, the progressives were very much in control in the 60’s and 70’s when pro-abortion laws were being passed left and right. There are quite a few “conservatives” today who talk like they do but they don’t want to “go back” to anything when real money is on the line. At least that’s been my experience. .
 
Maybe I should let the poster speak for himself, but I’m guessing the attitude being referred to is one of not wanting to “go back” or “go backwards.” Don’t forget, the progressives were very much in control in the 60’s and 70’s when pro-abortion laws were being passed left and right. There are quite a few “conservatives” today who talk like they do but they don’t want to “go back” to anything when real money is on the line. At least that’s been my experience. .
I’m confused. :confused:

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
It was Disobedience played a big part in all of the abuses that crept into the Church throughout the 60’s, 70’s 80’s and even going on in places today, not humble obedience.
The question then becomes is it disobedience when you simply follow the crowd not knowing what you’re doing is disobedient. Or inversely, is it obedience when you simply follow the crowd not knowing what you’re doing is being obedient. Today, for example, I receive standing in the OF because I don’t want to draw attention to myself. Knowing what I know about the Real Presence I should be able to crawl to receive Christ and to consume every last molecule of His flesh. But they don’t seem to see it that way. What else can I conclude from their nonchalant attitude about receiving communion? And am I being silly in believing what I believe? Does anyone around me feel the same way? What’s obedience really worth if I don’t have the faith or I’m prone to losing it? Just trying to be philosophical here.
 
The question then becomes is it disobedience when you simply follow the crowd not knowing what you’re doing is disobedient. Or inversely, is it obedience when you simply follow the crowd not knowing what you’re doing is being obedient. Today, for example, I receive standing in the OF because I don’t want to draw attention to myself. Knowing what I know about the Real Presence I should be able to crawl to receive Christ and to consume every last molecule of His flesh. But they don’t seem to see it that way. What else can I conclude from their nonchalant attitude about receiving communion? And am I being silly in believing what I believe? Does anyone around me feel the same way? What’s obedience really worth if I don’t have the faith or I’m prone to losing it? Just trying to be philosophical here.
Obedience is to conform as requested. Neglect can be disobedience. It you don’t know, it is neither obedience nor neglect, but ignorance.

I think the problem is that people think of worship as individual, but it is a group devotion. The presentation is important.
 
The question then becomes is it disobedience when you simply follow the crowd not knowing what you’re doing is disobedient. Or inversely, is it obedience when you simply follow the crowd not knowing what you’re doing is being obedient. Today, for example, I receive standing in the OF because I don’t want to draw attention to myself. Knowing what I know about the Real Presence I should be able to crawl to receive Christ and to consume every last molecule of His flesh. But they don’t seem to see it that way. What else can I conclude from their nonchalant attitude about receiving communion? And am I being silly in believing what I believe? Does anyone around me feel the same way? What’s obedience really worth if I don’t have the faith or I’m prone to losing it? Just trying to be philosophical here.
Oiur Holy Father Francis said it best when he explained the virtue of obedience. I’m paraphrasing, but I can give you the exact citation from our Rule. He said that obedience does not mean that the authority is always right. In fact, there are times when what the authority commands is not the best for our souls. However, unless authority commands something that the Church has condemned as a sin, we are bound to obey, even if we know better. True obedience is always pleasing to God and man. The perfect Christian is he who is like a corpse in the hands of authority, because he is like Christ, obedient even if it costs him.

He also said that such obedience would not cause the person his soul or a loss of grace. On the contrary, it would increase grace, because it’s goal is to be like Christ on the way to Calvary. He adds a condition here, besides the one about sin. He says that one must offer up the sacrifice involved in obeying that which is less than perfect or less than wise as an act of love for Christ who suffered at the hands of man who was less than perfect or wise. To become a Mirror of Perfection, one must be obedient in all things but sin.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I think the problem is that people think of worship as individual, but it is a group devotion. The presentation is important.
It is but we’re still going to be judged one by one. We come into the world alone and leave alone. Alone with God, of course.
 
It is but we’re still going to be judged one by one.
This is true. We are not judged “en masse”. I guess this is why we have to be very careful about saying that these bishops or those people over there are leading souls to hell. That’s not exactly accurate. Those who mislead may end up there. I don’t know, because I’m not God. Those who are misled through no fault of their own, are judged on their own culpability, not the culpability of others.

On the other hand, we do believe that God jduges us as a society. How that plays out in the final judgment of the individual is still a msytery.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
It you don’t know, it is neither obedience nor neglect, but ignorance.
Well, then you’re bound to have a lot of ignorant people. Either that or they just presume the majority whom they’re following is/are always right and obedient to the state, the church, and to society and individuals better follow them or else.
 
Well, then you’re bound to have a lot of ignorant people. Either that or they just presume the majority whom they’re following is/are always right and obedient to the state, the church, and to society and individuals better follow them or else.
Yes there are a lot of ignorant people. Assumption that the majority is correct is an error. If one has the capability, it should be used to understand the teachings of the Church.
 
Yes there are a lot of ignorant people. Assumption that the majority is correct is an error. If one has the capability, it should be used to understand the teachings of the Church.
But if my father allows me something, for example, giving me the keys to the car, is he teaching me anything? Other than that he’s a gread dad, of course. 🙂
 
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