Importance of Mary's perpetual virginity

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Aslan10 said:
This is a very helpful analogy. So it wouldn’t necessarily be the sex that would’ve defiled her but the act of being something she wasn’t meant to be? Am i on the right track with that one?
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Hi Asian. I just come into this thread, probably this have been address somewhere. One of the litanies for Mary is that she is the ‘spouse of the Holy Spirit’.

I hope you get the picture. She may be earthly married to Joseph but the Holy Spirit empowered her to have the child Jesus. She is ‘married to God’, not an uncommon spirituality among Christians. Nuns are ‘married to Jesus’ and are celibate; alluding to Jesus relationship to the Church as a Bridegroom and a bride.

God will be a cuckold should Mary had sex with other man, looking at it in that sense. The analogy of her being the new ark of covenant is a good one.

God bless.
 
rinnie said:
Okay buddy here is why, I am not holy and I am not the ark of the Covenant.

Read luke 1:39 and compare it to 2 Sam 6:2. Actually read all of Sam and Luke and you will pick up what I am trying to lay down for you.

Now in plain english, I am not as we agree a Virgin with a Son,and not the ark of the Covenant. The Ark of the Cov. is sealed.

Let me put this another way, Once you have sex you are no longer pure, a virgin, See what I am saying. I cannot have sex and stay a virgin, my womb is no longer pure. See what I am saying.

The Virgin Mary remained Pure get it a VIRGIN!

How could the Virgin Mary REMAIN the Innocent Un-Defiled INNOCENT ark of the New Covenant as described in Luke if she was no longer a virgin. See what I am saying?

So now let me ask you this, I think this will help you see even better. How can I be a Virgin, un-defiled okay, before marriage, but then get married and have sex and still remain un-defiled:eek: Why am I not still a virgin, why am I considered de-filed? Because I had Sex!! Got it!

That is why she remained de-filed. Because her womb remained HOLY, Inocent, Pure. The Ark of the Covenant had to be.

Now got back and read 2 Sam and what the Ark of the Cov.

Then go back to the N.T. the ark of the Cov. remains pure, un-defiled.
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"Spiritual intercourse *with *God is the ecstasy hinted at in all earthly intercourse, physical or spiritual. It is the ultimate reason why sexual passion is so strong, so different from other passions, so heavy with suggestions of profound meanings that just elude our grasp. No mere practical needs account for it. No mere animal drive explains it. No animal falls in love, writes profound romantic poetry, or sees sex as a symbol of the ultimate meaning of life because no animal is made in the image of God. Human sexuality is that image, and human sexuality is a foretaste of that self-giving, that losing and finding the self, that oneness-in-manyness that is the heart of the life and joy of the Trinity. That is what we long for; that is why we tremble to stand outside ourselves in the other, to give our whole selves, body and soul: because we are images of God the sexual being. We love the other sex because God loves God.

And this earthly love is so passionate because Heaven is full of passion, of energy and dynamism. We correctly deny that God has passions in the passive sense, being moved, driven, or conditioned by them, as we are. But to think of the love that made the worlds, the love that became human, suffered alienation from itself and died to save us rebels, the love that gleams through the fanatic joy of Jesus’ obedience to the will of His Father and that shines in the eyes and lives of the saints—to think of this love as any less passionate than our temporary and conditioned passions “is a most disastrous fantasy”. And that consuming fire of love is our destined Husband, according to His own promise. Sex in Heaven? Indeed, and no pale, abstract, merely mental shadow of it either. Earthly sex is the shadow, and our lives are a process of thickening so that we can share in the substance, becoming Heavenly fire so that we can endure and rejoice in the Heavenly fire."

If it were the case that Joseph would “defile” Mary by the act of mutual, self-giving sex, then it seems that the “sex-like” mystical union with God that awaits us all (his bride!) in Heaven will in turn “defile” God. For union with God will not be less than sexual intercourse, but rather far more in every way! If the Holy One can remain pure after bringing me near, far nearer than mere physical sex, then why is it necessarily the case that Mary would be defiled as a result of sex? She may indeed have remained a virgin until her death, but I do not believe it was to save her from impurity.
 
Aslan10 said:
This is a very helpful analogy. So it wouldn’t necessarily be the sex that would’ve defiled her but the act of being something she wasn’t meant to be? Am i on the right track with that one?
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Aslan - I think you are on the right track with that one…I agree that that was a very good analogy!
 
Apophasis1 said:
If it were the case that Joseph would “defile” Mary by the act of mutual, self-giving sex, then it seems that the “sex-like” mystical union with God that awaits us all (his bride!) in Heaven will in turn “defile” God. For union with God will not be less than sexual intercourse, but rather far more in every way! If the Holy One can remain pure after bringing me near, far nearer than mere physical sex, then why is it necessarily the case that Mary would be defiled as a result of sex? She may indeed have remained a virgin until her death, but I do not believe it was to save her from impurity.
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It has less to do with “impurity” and more with taking a sacred vessel and making it common. Our ultimate unity with God will not “defile” Him but take us, who are “common” and make us sacred. Afterward, there will be no opportunity for us to become “defiled” or return to common state.
 
Apophasis1 said:
"Spiritual intercourse *with *God is the ecstasy hinted at in all earthly intercourse, physical or spiritual. It is the ultimate reason why sexual passion is so strong, so different from other passions, so heavy with suggestions of profound meanings that just elude our grasp. No mere practical needs account for it. No mere animal drive explains it. No animal falls in love, writes profound romantic poetry, or sees sex as a symbol of the ultimate meaning of life because no animal is made in the image of God. Human sexuality is that image, and human sexuality is a foretaste of that self-giving, that losing and finding the self, that oneness-in-manyness that is the heart of the life and joy of the Trinity. That is what we long for; that is why we tremble to stand outside ourselves in the other, to give our whole selves, body and soul: because we are images of God the sexual being. We love the other sex because God loves God.

And this earthly love is so passionate because Heaven is full of passion, of energy and dynamism. We correctly deny that God has passions in the passive sense, being moved, driven, or conditioned by them, as we are. But to think of the love that made the worlds, the love that became human, suffered alienation from itself and died to save us rebels, the love that gleams through the fanatic joy of Jesus’ obedience to the will of His Father and that shines in the eyes and lives of the saints—to think of this love as any less passionate than our temporary and conditioned passions “is a most disastrous fantasy”. And that consuming fire of love is our destined Husband, according to His own promise. Sex in Heaven? Indeed, and no pale, abstract, merely mental shadow of it either. Earthly sex is the shadow, and our lives are a process of thickening so that we can share in the substance, becoming Heavenly fire so that we can endure and rejoice in the Heavenly fire."

If it were the case that Joseph would “defile” Mary by the act of mutual, self-giving sex, then it seems that the “sex-like” mystical union with God that awaits us all (his bride!) in Heaven will in turn “defile” God. For union with God will not be less than sexual intercourse, but rather far more in every way! If the Holy One can remain pure after bringing me near, far nearer than mere physical sex, then why is it necessarily the case that Mary would be defiled as a result of sex? She may indeed have remained a virgin until her death, but I do not believe it was to save her from impurity.
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Peter Kreeft…I like it. I think me and you are thinking the same way. That doesn’t mean i disbelieve in her perpetual virginity.👍
 
Aslan10 said:
Firstly, Im not here to argue so please dont be hostile. I’m here Just to understand. I won’t continue on if you keep getting angry like that. Secondly, to maybe help you understand what my understanding of defile here is the definition: “to make foul, dirty, or unclean; pollute; taint; debase.” If its not a sin to have sex in marriage and sin is what makes us “foul, dirty, and unclean” than it wouldn’t make much sense in my mind to say she was “defiled” if she ended up having sex within marriage. It makes it seem as if there is a stigma about the doctrine that makes sex within marriage look bad. Thats all im saying.

Please i’m not here to argue. Just curious and doing my due diligence. I could be your brother one day.

Peace be with you rinnie
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Please do not think I was being hostile. I would never do that.

When I made the words capital I wanted to stress the importance of the words to help you understand scripture. I so SO SO sorry if I came off that way. It was not the intention of my words.
 
Apophasis1 said:
"Spiritual intercourse *with *God is the ecstasy hinted at in all earthly intercourse, physical or spiritual. It is the ultimate reason why sexual passion is so strong, so different from other passions, so heavy with suggestions of profound meanings that just elude our grasp. No mere practical needs account for it. No mere animal drive explains it. No animal falls in love, writes profound romantic poetry, or sees sex as a symbol of the ultimate meaning of life because no animal is made in the image of God. Human sexuality is that image, and human sexuality is a foretaste of that self-giving, that losing and finding the self, that oneness-in-manyness that is the heart of the life and joy of the Trinity. That is what we long for; that is why we tremble to stand outside ourselves in the other, to give our whole selves, body and soul: because we are images of God the sexual being. We love the other sex because God loves God.

And this earthly love is so passionate because Heaven is full of passion, of energy and dynamism. We correctly deny that God has passions in the passive sense, being moved, driven, or conditioned by them, as we are. But to think of the love that made the worlds, the love that became human, suffered alienation from itself and died to save us rebels, the love that gleams through the fanatic joy of Jesus’ obedience to the will of His Father and that shines in the eyes and lives of the saints—to think of this love as any less passionate than our temporary and conditioned passions “is a most disastrous fantasy”. And that consuming fire of love is our destined Husband, according to His own promise. Sex in Heaven? Indeed, and no pale, abstract, merely mental shadow of it either. Earthly sex is the shadow, and our lives are a process of thickening so that we can share in the substance, becoming Heavenly fire so that we can endure and rejoice in the Heavenly fire."

If it were the case that Joseph would “defile” Mary by the act of mutual, self-giving sex, then it seems that the “sex-like” mystical union with God that awaits us all (his bride!) in Heaven will in turn “defile” God. For union with God will not be less than sexual intercourse, but rather far more in every way! If the Holy One can remain pure after bringing me near, far nearer than mere physical sex, then why is it necessarily the case that Mary would be defiled as a result of sex? She may indeed have remained a virgin until her death, but I do not believe it was to save her from impurity.
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I was trying to explain that her womb remained pure. Un-defiled means pure. A virgin is Pure before sex. Mary REMAINED pure. I thought when I stressed the word REMAINED it would show my point that she never had sex,

You cannot REMAIN pure if you had sex, Anotherwards remain a virgin. But see Mary did, which proves she never had sex with her husband.

Please go back and read what I said now, in the context of what I was trying to explain.
 
Apophasis1 said:
"Spiritual intercourse *with *God is the ecstasy hinted at in all earthly intercourse, physical or spiritual. It is the ultimate reason why sexual passion is so strong, so different from other passions, so heavy with suggestions of profound meanings that just elude our grasp. No mere practical needs account for it. No mere animal drive explains it. No animal falls in love, writes profound romantic poetry, or sees sex as a symbol of the ultimate meaning of life because no animal is made in the image of God. Human sexuality is that image, and human sexuality is a foretaste of that self-giving, that losing and finding the self, that oneness-in-manyness that is the heart of the life and joy of the Trinity. That is what we long for; that is why we tremble to stand outside ourselves in the other, to give our whole selves, body and soul: because we are images of God the sexual being. We love the other sex because God loves God.

And this earthly love is so passionate because Heaven is full of passion, of energy and dynamism. We correctly deny that God has passions in the passive sense, being moved, driven, or conditioned by them, as we are. But to think of the love that made the worlds, the love that became human, suffered alienation from itself and died to save us rebels, the love that gleams through the fanatic joy of Jesus’ obedience to the will of His Father and that shines in the eyes and lives of the saints—to think of this love as any less passionate than our temporary and conditioned passions “is a most disastrous fantasy”. And that consuming fire of love is our destined Husband, according to His own promise. Sex in Heaven? Indeed, and no pale, abstract, merely mental shadow of it either. Earthly sex is the shadow, and our lives are a process of thickening so that we can share in the substance, becoming Heavenly fire so that we can endure and rejoice in the Heavenly fire."

If it were the case that Joseph would “defile” Mary by the act of mutual, self-giving sex, then it seems that the “sex-like” mystical union with God that awaits us all (his bride!) in Heaven will in turn “defile” God. For union with God will not be less than sexual intercourse, but rather far more in every way! If the Holy One can remain pure after bringing me near, far nearer than mere physical sex, then why is it necessarily the case that Mary would be defiled as a result of sex? She may indeed have remained a virgin until her death, but I do not believe it was to save her from impurity.
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She is the Immaculate Mother. Immaculate in all ways. And I disagree with you on her remaining a virgin to her death to save her from being (name removed by moderator)ure in the sexual sense.

I believe she remained pure in all ways, and kept her promise to God and remained a Virgin and saved her purity because it was her oath to God.

Mother Mary kept her fidelity to God.
 
Pope Leo l

His (origin) Christ is different, but his human nature is the same. But by divine power a virgin conceived, a virgin bore a son, a Virgin she remained. Sermons 22:2 (A.D. 450).

Her Pepetual virginity. Pepteual means for all time.

Why does it matter? Simple we have to know the truth, the Church is commanded to tell us the truth. And also because she made a promise to God to remain a virgin and kept it.

It is our duty to honor her, and defend her. Why? Simply because she is the perfect Mother and we love her.
 
rinnie said:
Please do not think I was being hostile. I would never do that.

When I made the words capital I wanted to stress the importance of the words to help you understand scripture. I so SO SO sorry if I came off that way. It was not the intention of my words.
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No harm done! things can be taken differently on an online forum. thank you.
 
Aslan10 said:
Interesting. I guess from someone living in the modern world were sex is literally everywhere it’s hard for me to understand. I’m clearly not meant to be a priest or monk!

And just to clear up something, i’m asking these questions because I really want to know and am really curious. Im not trying to start any arguments, I can’t stand it when people get all angry. Just thought i would put that out there! Im not a protestant trying to pick a fight I promise! haha.

Peace be with you
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I observed the opposite during my days as an Evengelical Christian. Marriage was the ultimate destiny for everyone. Singles who where faithful and living celibate lives were at times viewed with suspicion. In fact, I heard that I as a single was living in sin because I was not a wife and mother.

Of course I have also read in this forum that if you were not a priest or nun and was not married you were also in sin.
 
I really like your response and I love “Hail Holy Queen”
It brings to mind our late popes writings on Mary’s fiat… her yes to God that she was willing to take on the burden of being the mother of God… something mere sex could never accomplish, especially since she is our mother as well…I don’t think the universal mother, the Virgin.Mary, could engage in that act…she didn’t need to and was freed from those base issues… Her spouse was God…such beautiful faith and surrender was an essential part of bringing Christ into this world… She took it all to a higher level and sacrificed herself to bear the pain and support all of her children…St Louis De Montfort was a wonderful writer on this subject as was Pope John Paul the Second…you need the Mother to know the Son. Just as a good mother will never give up or leave her child…if you ask her, she will bring you to Christ
 
I think part of it is that union with God can at times be estastic. People have used union…or sexual energy and abused the ones who they wee meant to cherish (women) women are objectified as providers for pleasure and can find that their only means of acceptance… men do not understand the damage they are doing by defiling motherhood and treating women like a means for personal satifaction…due to the innate need for completion and sex being somewhat similar to union with God… That comes with responibility and sincere love. Women lost their power because we have lived in a society where instead of reviling in the amazing power and compassion of being a woman. somehow that role was downplayed and equality meant being like a man…the thought of which sickens me… the role of nurturing has been downplayed and focus on the beauty of letting go and really trusting in God is an anomaly…women can be very vulnerable and powerful…Marys virginity was the ultimate example of bravery, love, vunerabiliy and she facilitated in the creation of Christ!
 
Sarcelle said:
I observed the opposite during my days as an Evengelical Christian. Marriage was the ultimate destiny for everyone. Singles who where faithful and living celibate lives were at times viewed with suspicion. In fact, I heard that I as a single was living in sin because I was not a wife and mother.

Of course I have also read in this forum that if you were not a priest or nun and was not married you were also in sin.
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That’s interesting. As someone who was raised in the reformed church and went to an evangelical church in college I’ve never heard that or experienced it. The evangelical church i went to actually downplayed marriage and said its not for everyone. Even went to great lengths to say that marriage is an idol in our society. But they never advocated sex before marriage, always chastity.
 
Aslan10 said:
That’s interesting. As someone who was raised in the reformed church and went to an evangelical church in college I’ve never heard that or experienced it. The evangelical church i went to actually downplayed marriage and said its not for everyone. Even went to great lengths to say that marriage is an idol in our society. But they never advocated sex before marriage, always chastity.
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I find that unusual. The environment I observed emphasized marriage. Daughters who were over age 18 were not encouraged to move out but stayed in their father’s house until marriage. Thus it was not unusual to see women in their mid-20s and mid-30s still living at home. Women were not under any circumstances allowed to be independent. They must have a male head over them at all times. Single women had their fathers, and married women their husbands. That was the ideal. Any unmarried man or woman was living against God’s will. Of course women were not allowed to cut their hair, wear pants or wear make-up. They were not also to teach men nor have any authority over men.
 
Sarcelle said:
I observed the opposite during my days as an Evengelical Christian. Marriage was the ultimate destiny for everyone. Singles who where faithful and living celibate lives were at times viewed with suspicion. In fact, I heard that I as a single was living in sin because I was not a wife and mother.

Of course I have also read in this forum that if you were not a priest or nun and was not married you were also in sin.
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I have never heard of such a thing in my life.:eek:

I was brought up in the RCC. We were taught that you were not to have sex outside of marriage, that of course was a sin, or living with someone and having sex without marriage, but to be single and not marry being a sin thats just unreal. Not to mention in complete contradiction with scripture.

I had a Aunt who never married, and lived in Church, but was never a Nun. Why I don’t know? She was viewed as a very faithful religious women. And was indeed in her own right.

I had always wondered why she never became a nun. It came to me later in life, being a Nun you must be willing to give up too much,

She was what you could calll a very selfish woman, Everything revolved around her, and was about her, Her money which she made much of, (she worked for the Pentagon) was for her and her only.Yes she gave to the Church, but anyway thats between her and God,

But my point is no one EVER looked at her living her life in sin because she did not marry. That just floors me that anyone would say that.:confused:
 
rinnie said:
I have never heard of such a thing in my life.:eek:

I was brought up in the RCC. We were taught that you were not to have sex outside of marriage, that of course was a sin, or living with someone and having sex without marriage, but to be single and not marry being a sin thats just unreal. Not to mention in complete contradiction with scripture.

I had a Aunt who never married, and lived in Church, but was never a Nun. Why I don’t know? She was viewed as a very faithful religious women. And was indeed in her own right.

I had always wondered why she never became a nun. It came to me later in life, being a Nun you must be willing to give up too much,

She was what you could calll a very selfish woman, Everything revolved around her, and was about her, Her money which she made much of, (she worked for the Pentagon) was for her and her only.Yes she gave to the Church, but anyway thats between her and God,

But my point is no one EVER looked at her living her life in sin because she did not marry. That just floors me that anyone would say that.:confused:
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I think being a nun or a priest is a calling. You have to be called to be a nun or priest. Failing to get married does not automatically mean a call to be a nun or priest.
 
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