Important question for non-Catholics???

[Rightlydivide]

A question for non-Catholics who don’t believe the Catholic church is the church founded by God: please give me a reason why I should belong to a non-Catholic church, regardless of denomination, and please, be specific; no generalities that move away from this simple question!

Please, don’t derail the thread…specificity is all I care about regarding this thread…

1. Because we engage in soul winning. We knock on doors. Witness to people in as many places as possible. Because the Apostles preached. People who try to evangelize with just their actions do not get results. I can state I have personally led over 300 people to Christ and baptized more than half that amount.
2. Because you can believe the whole book. No need to discount Adam and Eve or a literal flood etc. If any part of the book has any inaccurate teaching or scientific or historical fact, it throws the validity of the whole book into question.
3. Because the world hates us. Just like Christ said it would be.
4. Because the joy that Christ gives us is beyond anything I experienced before I became a Christian.
5. Because people in our pews believe. Go to the Pew research forum and find how most of the other churches may officially believe one thing but the people in the pews do not. That is not the case in our churches.
   That should be enough.
   Thanks for asking

 

[Curious_Seed]

How much later, in your opinion?

Also, please explain the wide differences in doctrines that exist today between Catholic and Protestant, or even Protestants themselves?

I understand that you believe the Catholic Church began with Saint Peter.

Fair enough: I certainly agree that the Church of Christ began with him, as well.

So, by extension, should you argue that your church began with Peter, or another Christian argues that their church began with Peter – I have little in contrary.

The historical record of the Catholic Church per se, however, begins environ 60 AD to 90 AD, with Linus or Clement, as Bishop of Rome.

Of course, the historical record is a matter of debate, as well.

To what purpose would it serve you, to delineate the differences of doctrine among brothers and sisters of the Christian faith ?

Do you ask to learn or to ridicule ?

By your stating that the differences are wide shows pre-set thinking, so probably your goal is simply to ridicule.

But, maybe not.

 

[joe370]

Is this non-Catholic Christians or can anyone play?

Anyone!

 

[joe370]

You don’t have to convert to any denomination or religion, it is a matter of personal choice.

I agree. A question for non-Catholics who don’t believe the Catholic church is the church founded by God: please give me a reason why I should belong to a non-Catholic church, regardless of denomination?

 

[joe370]

CMatt25;7645558]Since regardless of their Church teaching Catholics do not allow me to identify as Catholic, may I play too? :bounce: Here’s one possible scenario. Even if a non Catholic were to believe the Catholic Church at one time was the Church founded by God, they might see reasons. Lets say a non Catholic sees the humans within Her as having strayed.

Well, that’s been happening since day 1 of Christianity.

It might be perhaps believing teaching was even off from early on.

Seems like the holy spirit is to blame if in fact, as the bible says, the HS is guiding Jesus’ church into all truth?

Or the non Catholic might recognize abuses. Or believes there has been corruption, legalistic rules brought forth. Or believes leaders have beared fruits by which we shall know them by and thus are to beware of them.

Well, Jesus did say regarding those in His church:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”

“But he said, ‘No, lest perhaps while you gather up the darnel, you root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest…”

And they believe Christ then has to reform His Church in order to keep His promise of the gates not prevailing. If Christ can change disciplines, change His mind about the age at which a fasting obligation begins, and so forth in the Catholic Church for instance, then He surely can change His earthly leadership as needed as well

Perhaps if someone here could identify Jesus’ reformed church, in the world today against which the gates will never prevail, the answer to the following question could be answered: please give me a reason why I should belong to a non-Catholic church, regardless of denomination, and please, be specific; no generalities that move away from this simple question!

 

[joe370]

Curious Seed;7645828]Interesting question.

There is a facet to the question that I would like to explore, though it does not directly address your primary inquiry [my apologies, if you regard this as a derailing of the thread].

Is the Catholic Church the original church founded by God? Do Protestant and Orthodox Churches share history with the Catholic Church?

History says yes to the first question, unless someone can prove that not to be the case, and yes both the EOC and the PC’s share a history with the CC. The PC’s at best, go back to the 16th century, and the EOC goes all the way back to the apostolic age.

The Catholic Church – with resulting investiture of the Bishop of Rome, years later – started with Peter.

Yup. You are cephas and on the cephas I will build my church…

As did the Protestant and Orthodox Churches.

With Peter’s proclamation to Jesus, at Caesarea Philippi, the Church of Christ was initiated, though not called Catholic, nor Protestant, nor Orthodox, at the time.

Jesus never named His church. His church leadership in His stead, came up with a proper name and men such as Ignatius, a pupil of the apostles, referred to Jesus’ church as the Catholic church.

When the Apostle Paul was evangelizing, there was no Catholic Church, nor Protestant Church, but separate churches in local districts, learning of and from each other.

So where is that one church, comprised of separate churches, today, that does not include the CC, the EOC and the PC’s? Perhaps then we can address post #1.

The early Catholic Fathers were instrumental in knitting virtually all of the foundational beliefs of the Christian faith, by dogma and doctrine, canon and continuance.

And they belonged to the Catholic Church. Why should we believe anything they say if the CC to which they belonged,was not the church to which the Apostle Paul belonged?

About 500 years ago, some Catholics took exception to certain tenets of the Catholic direction, and steered differently accordingly, acquiring the Protestant appellation.

Which brings us back to post # 1!

It is an error to conclude that the history of the Protestant Church started only 500 years ago.

COLOR=“red”]T

he history of the Protestant Church started 2000 years ago, but altered from the Catholic current, some 500 years ago.

Please identify this historical Protestant church?

The history of the Catholic Church is not the exclusive prerogative of the Catholic Church; the Protestant and Orthodox Churches share the very same earliest history.

Proof please, for anyone who embraces this notion?

The Holy Spirit is within and among all members of the branches of the Church of Christ, whether the branch be called Catholic, or Protestant, or Orthodox.



So the HS guides each and every insular church into all truth?

 

[joe370]

Was Saint Peter a Catholic ?

But, you are right to say that bopping around the Holy Land, at any time, is high comedy.

Well, Ignatius of Antioch was the third Bishop of Antioch, and a student of John the Apostle and he said, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church, so yes.

 

[joe370]

I assume that non-Catholics can play. You may join any Christian denomination that you wish, provided you have tested the practices of that denomination and found them useful. Since practices are often driven by beliefs then you also need to look at beliefs as well.

From the Kalama sutta:[The Buddha said:] “Kalamas, when you yourselves know: ‘These things are good; these things are not blameable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,’ enter on and abide in them.”

rossum

So a Christian may join any Christian denomination that he/she wishes, provided he/she agrees with the teachings of said church? If he or she does not then he or she can simply pursue a church that does conform to his or her beliefs???

 

[joe370]

I am a very recent convert to the Catholic Church. For over 5 years I wrestled with the question you are asking. Somewhere during those years I began to realize the importance of the Eucharist. I searched for a faith or denomination that had the same understanding of the Lord’s Supper, but could not find any except of course the CC. Once I began to study the catechism I found a lot more that was right with the Church. Is there a valid reason why I should consider a non-Catholic church? Why should I listen to the preachers, commentators, and writers of today when I can read the preachers, commentators, and writers that actually knew the apostles and what was practiced and taught in the early Church? I don’t think so.

I can really relate, and I agree with you!

 

[meltzerboy]

You shouldn’t believe ANYTHING based simply on some clever piece of logic some human can weave into an apologetics argument. When it comes to matters of this scale, you should only believe in whatever church or belief system is consistent with what your mind and heart and soul know to be true. At the risk of violating your precondition to not derail the thread, I will suggest that you are asking an unproductive question. Any answers you might turn up may well be interesting as an intellectual exercise, but the underlying goal of apologetics - to establish that no reasonable person can fail to believe in X or Y religion, is a fool’s quest.

You’re probably correct. Belief in any faith, faiths, or no faith at all is a leap of faith: reason alone will not get you there.

 

[joe370]

panner;7646219]This question could be turned right back on you in a most similar way. I could ask you as a Protestant would ask - “What is more important a relationship with Christ where we give our lives to Him or the Church we belong to.”

A relationship with Christ in the church founded by Jesus Christ.

The average forum Catholic thinks only in absolutes where it appears the Protestant does not all the time.

I understand.

Reminds me of the scene in Star Wars with Anakin and Obi wan where Obi wan says “Only the sith deal in absolutes” of course Catholics aren’t sith it just reminded me of it.

youtube.com/watch?v=pSwy412nttI

LOL…

 

[joe370]

If non-Christians may be allowed to respond, I will offer my opinion. But first I would want to find out whether this is a hypothetical question or whether you are having reservations about your conversion to Catholicism. If you are happy where you are, I would not wish to change your mind in another direction. Assuming I am making the case for Judaism, you would have to be a willing convert since Jews are forbidden to proselytize and, in fact, dissuade converts three times to make sure they understand that the conversion process is quite challenging on an internal as well as external level and not to be taken lightly. More to follow based on your response.

I am already a convert to the CC, asking questions that I often asked myself as a former non-Catholic. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut friend.

 

[joe370]

Dokimas;7646737]Ah, so your question was a baiting question. Now I understand your motive.

we discussed this already, but feel free to believe it even though it’s not true.

I never said the church in question is not one that Jesus directly or indirectly started. There’s lots of good churches not called catholic that glorify Jesus and fits the description for many wonderful Christians.

I agree.

 

[joe370]

You shouldn’t believe ANYTHING based simply on some clever piece of logic some human can weave into an apologetics argument. When it comes to matters of this scale, you should only believe in whatever church or belief system is consistent with what your mind and heart and soul know to be true. At the risk of violating your precondition to not derail the thread, I will suggest that you are asking an unproductive question. Any answers you might turn up may well be interesting as an intellectual exercise, but the underlying goal of apologetics - to establish that no reasonable person can fail to believe in X or Y religion, is a fool’s quest.

So choose a church based on my private judgment, as should all Christians?

If you believe that it is an unproductive question just ignore brother.

This is merely a question this fool once asked himself as a former non-Catholic, and was curious how other non-Catholics felt.

 

[joe370]

Rightlydivide;7647111]1. Because we engage in soul winning. We knock on doors. Witness to people in as many places as possible. Because the Apostles preached. People who try to evangelize with just their actions do not get results. I can state I have personally led over 300 people to Christ and baptized more than half that amount.

That’s an awesome reply and I agree.

1. Because you can believe the whole book. No need to discount Adam and Eve or a literal flood etc. If any part of the book has any inaccurate teaching or scientific or historical fact, it throws the validity of the whole book into question.
2. Because the world hates us. Just like Christ said it would be.
3. Because the joy that Christ gives us is beyond anything I experienced before I became a Christian.
4. Because people in our pews believe. Go to the Pew research forum and find how most of the other churches may officially believe one thing but the people in the pews do not. That is not the case in our churches.
   That should be enough.
   Thanks for asking

Thank you for answering brother.

 

[joe370]

You’re probably correct. Belief in any faith, faiths, or no faith at all is a leap of faith: reason alone will not get you there.

I too agree.

 

[cooterhein]

A question for non-Catholics who don’t believe the Catholic church is the church founded by God: please give me a reason why I should belong to a non-Catholic church, regardless of denomination, and please, be specific; no generalities that move away from this simple question!

You belong to a group of converts that are known as Tiber swimmers. If you do decide to leave the Catholic Church, it will be more like reversion than conversion. This would be a slightly unorthodox use of the term “revert,” but I don’t know of any other terms that are a better fit.

Over half of American adults who convert to Catholicism from Protestantism wind up becoming “reverts” (in the sense that it is now being used). May I suggest that if you want some really good reasons for being one of those reverts, you don’t necessarily have to ask strangers in an online forum…it’s quite likely that you became friends with a good number of soon-to-be reverts while you were going through RCIA. In fact, it’s quite possible that the future reverts outnumbered the permanent converts in your “graduating class.”

Please, don’t derail the thread…specificity is all I care about regarding this thread…

Well, you don’t always get what you want. I suppose it doesn’t hurt to ask, though. I’ve never had the opportunity to be a revert, so there are limits to my ability to speak to your personal experience.

If you’re better at talking to reverts in real life than you are at talking to Protestants via online forum, I strongly recommend that you take advantage of your real-life opportunities. Being a Tiber swimmer yourself, I’m sure you have plenty of them.

 

[AWHN]

A question for non-Catholics who don’t believe the Catholic church is the church founded by God: please give me a reason why I should belong to a non-Catholic church, regardless of denomination, and please, be specific; no generalities that move away from this simple question!

Please, don’t derail the thread…specificity is all I care about regarding this thread…

It would not be good to merely be part of any “denomination” for the sake of being in one. The reasons for anyone to leave the Roman Catholic faith, “come out of her my people”, would be numerous.

Should we not rather want to belong with those who follow CHRIST JESUS and teach what HE taught? How will we know which is TRUE and which is false?

We must search for the TRUTH and do as CHRIST JESUS commanded be done:

• “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” John 5:39
• “For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little:” Isaiah 28:10

We must be like the more Noble Bereans:

-“And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming [thither] went into the synagogue of the Jews.” Acts 17:10

-“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” Acts 17:11

And if there be any that Prophesy we should Test their words with the WORD of GOD:

-“Despise not prophesyings.” 1 Thessalonians 5:20

-“Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” 1 Thessalonians 5:21

-“To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:” 1 Corinthians 12:10

-“And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.” 1 Corinthians 14:32

-“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” 1 John 4:1

-“To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.” Isaiah 8:20

For not every spirit is TRUE, but there are many who deceive [for there is the HOLY SPIRIT, and the “spirit of Anti-Christ”]:

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

-“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;” 1 Timothy 4:1

-“And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs [come] out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.” Revelation 16:13

-“For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, [which] go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.” Revelation 16:14

So let us begin with the scriptures, the WORD of GOD and let it define for us the TRUTH…let us ask, What is the TRUTH?:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7647486&postcount=401

 

[joe370]

Well, thanks for the suggestions, and, by the way, I do take advantage of my real-life opportunities.

I don’t recall asking you to speak to my personal experience. I am merely asking non-Catholic Christians who don’t believe the Catholic church is the church founded by God, to please give me a reason why I should belong to a non-Catholic church?

You belong to a group of converts that are known as Tiber swimmers. If you do decide to leave the Catholic Church, it will be more like reversion than conversion. This would be a slightly unorthodox use of the term “revert,” but I don’t know of any other terms that are a better fit.

Over half of American adults who convert to Catholicism from Protestantism wind up becoming “reverts” (in the sense that it is now being used). May I suggest that if you want some really good reasons for being one of those reverts, you don’t necessarily have to ask strangers in an online forum…it’s quite likely that you became friends with a good number of soon-to-be reverts while you were going through RCIA. In fact, it’s quite possible that the future reverts outnumbered the permanent converts in your “graduating class.”

Well, you don’t always get what you want. I suppose it doesn’t hurt to ask, though. I’ve never had the opportunity to be a revert, so there are limits to my ability to speak to your personal experience.

If you’re better at talking to reverts in real life than you are at talking to Protestants via online forum, I strongly recommend that you take advantage of your real-life opportunities. Being a Tiber swimmer yourself, I’m sure you have plenty of them.

 

[CMatt25]

Well, that’s been happening since day 1 of Christianity.

Seems like the holy spirit is to blame if in fact, as the bible says, the HS is guiding Jesus’ church into all truth?

Perhaps if someone here could identify Jesus’ reformed church, in the world today against which the gates will never prevail, the answer to the following question could be answered: please give me a reason why I should belong to a non-Catholic church, regardless of denomination, and please, be specific; no generalities that move away from this simple question!

Exactly. There have been differences since as you put it “day 1”.

The Holy Spirit would not be to blame. But man.

Someone can. They can go by what they believe in their heart. Following their conscience where according to CCC in its depths they are alone with God. Which per CCC they must obey so not to condemn themselves. Having the right to make moral decisions on religious matters without being forced to act contrary to their conscience. This of course all done after much prayer, study, informing, contemplation, and more prayer.

You want more specifics? O…K. You asked. But is specifics all you truly want or are you then going to debate them? Because I’m not going to debate faith and belief with you here. Faith can not be proven with 100% absolute certainty or else it would not be called faith. To begin with, for you or I to even get to the point of Christianity, first one must believe in a Creator. Then the NT story of Christ. To get to your faith, one must then believe in Catholic Church interpretation of Herself, of Scripture, and of ECFs. A lot of faith steps going on along the way.

But here goes just some specifics for you…

I’m certain you are aware some believe Christ founded His Church on what Peter said regarding Christ being the Son of God. Not just on Peter. And that the Church is not the Catholic Church but the entire Body of Believers.

Christ afterall did say to believe in Him for eternal life.

There are some who even if they believe Peter led and if they believe the Catholic Church was the original, believe the Catholic Church has strayed. I’m also certain you are aware of the abuses reformers took note of.

And as you know some Protestants believe Augustine for instance was not speaking of a physical RP as your faith understands it to be. Some might believe in Jn 6 Christ was talking about believing in Him as the Son, in the Sacrifice on the cross He came down from heaven to make, and that He was speaking of His spirit giving life. A spiritual real presence. And those who walked did so because they were still hung up on the literal.

Some believe Jn 6:37 speaks open Communion.

Or they question other teaching.

Some might believe the Catholic Church became too legalistic.

There are many things in the Bible Christians do not take literally.

Some believers need everything spelled out for them and others understand human minds are finite.

On a personal note I don’t particularly strongly feel God in the territorial parish for Catholics in my neighborhood when I’ve attempted worship there. Because to me the decor or aura or feel of the parish is too extravagent. Marble. EMHC’s in robes. And most importantly the last homily I heard there the priest said some were complaining about this. But that people have no right to complain about expenditures on decor vs the poor because his answer to the poor was to get a job. I definitely did not feel God there at that moment and have not been back. Btw way some see the same extravagance in the Vatican. And thus no matter how much the Catholic Church gives to the poor, more could be given.

As I believe though it was Dokimas who said, go where you sense the presence of God.

Some find too much emphasis on conservative political issues in today’s Catholic Church vs things Jesus actually talked about. Read Matt 25:36 - 47 for some of Christ’s ideas about what leads to eternal life. Read in Matthew about peacemakers being blessed.

Then of course more recently you have the child abuse cases and cover ups. Which brings into the play the whole idea of knowing false teachers by their fruits. And regardless of their ability to sin, if whether or not true Apostolic successors preaching the sanctity of life would not have known better than to cover up child molestation.

So many things cause folks to question. And one abuse or err alone can raise doubt in the hearts and minds and consciences of some as to the entirety of what the Church says. And they lose faith in the Catholic Church.

So you asked to be more specific and I hope this is specific enough for you and it helps in your understanding. Again I have no interest in debating others faiths and beliefs with you here. I am simply answering your question. God bless you on your faith walk and God bless all of His chidren as we walk His earth. And peace.