Important question for non-Catholics???

[cooterhein]

Well, thanks for the suggestions, and, by the way, I do take advantage of my real-life opportunities.

That’s great, and I hope to find out about them at some point. The mind of a Tiber-swimmer-turned-revert is something that I do not know very well at all. Maybe that’s because I don’t spend any time on ex-Catholic forums.

I don’t recall asking you to speak to my personal experience. I am merely asking non-Catholic Christians who don’t believe the Catholic church is the church founded by God, to please give me a reason why I should belong to a non-Catholic church?

Yes, you want to know from me (the respondent) why you (Joe, a Tiber swimmer) should belong to a non-Catholic church. And I shouldn’t speak in generalities; I should be specific to this goal and not get sidetracked.

I could tell you why I never became a Catholic, and if you really wanted to hear it, I might be able to come up with some material from cradle Catholics who wound up converting. I’m afraid I don’t have much info about Tiber swimmers who reverted, though, and that seems to be what you’re asking for. But I do have a hunch that you’ve already met more of these people in real life than you ever will on a forum like this, and I can suggest that you talk to them and maybe let me know what you find out. I’m kind of curious myself.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I understand that you believe the Catholic Church began with Saint Peter.

Fair enough: I certainly agree that the Church of Christ began with him, as well.

So, by extension, should you argue that your church began with Peter, or another Christian argues that their church began with Peter – I have little in contrary.

The historical record of the Catholic Church per se, however, begins environ 60 AD to 90 AD, with Linus or Clement, as Bishop of Rome.

Of course, the historical record is a matter of debate, as well.

To what purpose would it serve you, to delineate the differences of doctrine among brothers and sisters of the Christian faith ?

Do you ask to learn or to ridicule ?

By your stating that the differences are wide shows pre-set thinking, so probably your goal is simply to ridicule.

But, maybe not.

I believe the Catholic Church began with St. Peter. I also believe, by extension, the Church of Christ began with St. Peter, through the Catholic Church during, or after, the reformation which was hundreds of years later.

By the way, which Church of Christ are you talking about, the Pentecostal or LDS? I know there are a couple of variations of the Church of Christ, and those have wide divides in doctrines.

The differences I asked about was not for ridicule, but to ask for your explanation of how all those Churches remained one, with different doctrines, as scriptures tell us they should be one? Many Churches with different doctrines did not exist in the early Church. I believe there was one Church, in many locations. Scriptures do not give examples of different doctrines being tolerated, much less taught, in different locations.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

1. Because we engage in soul winning. We knock on doors. Witness to people in as many places as possible. Because the Apostles preached. People who try to evangelize with just their actions do not get results. I can state I have personally led over 300 people to Christ and baptized more than half that amount.
2. Because you can believe the whole book. No need to discount Adam and Eve or a literal flood etc. If any part of the book has any inaccurate teaching or scientific or historical fact, it throws the validity of the whole book into question.
3. Because the world hates us. Just like Christ said it would be.
4. Because the joy that Christ gives us is beyond anything I experienced before I became a Christian.
5. Because people in our pews believe. Go to the Pew research forum and find how most of the other churches may officially believe one thing but the people in the pews do not. That is not the case in our churches.
   That should be enough.
   Thanks for asking

I see a lot of people professing evangelization and have to wonder about those who are on a Catholic forum 7 days a week. Is there a belief that Catholics need to be evangelized?

When Christ spoke about being hated by all nations, He was specifically addressing the men He chose and appointed, who we know the majority were martyred. Too many interpretations ignore the audience that Christ spoke too, in my opinion.

There are many differences among congregations. I attribute that to people placing their understanding of scriptures over anyone else’s understanding. There are other factors, but private interpretation is the biggest divider.

I’m sure we can find many Churches claiming that all the people of that Church are of the same mind and judgment. The founding dates of those Churches leaves us to wonder about all the generations that did not have that same truth being espoused?

 

[joe370]

Again, I did not ask you to speak to my personal experience. Forget my personal experience as to why I am a catholic convert, for I am certain you would not care! Please just address post #1? Like you said: I want to know from you (the respondent) - why I (Joe, a thankful Tiber swimmer) - should belong to a non-Catholic church, (and of course, which non-Catholic church) - and you shouldn’t speak in generalities; you should be specific to this goal and not get sidetracked. I am sure you could tell me why you never became a Catholic but that is not relative to post #1. I am speaking to your personal experiences and based on those personal experiences, I am asking you to respond to post # 1 if you want to; if you don’t, that’s cool too.

That’s great, and I hope to find out about them at some point. The mind of a Tiber-swimmer-turned-revert is something that I do not know very well at all. Maybe that’s because I don’t spend any time on ex-Catholic forums.

Yes, you want to know from me (the respondent) why you (Joe, a Tiber swimmer) should belong to a non-Catholic church. And I shouldn’t speak in generalities; I should be specific to this goal and not get sidetracked.

I could tell you why I never became a Catholic, and if you really wanted to hear it, I might be able to come up with some material from cradle Catholics who wound up converting. I’m afraid I don’t have much info about Tiber swimmers who reverted, though, and that seems to be what you’re asking for. But I do have a hunch that you’ve already met more of these people in real life than you ever will on a forum like this, and I can suggest that you talk to them and maybe let me know what you find out. I’m kind of curious myself.

 

[joe370]

I totally agree; private interpretation is the biggest divider.

I see a lot of people professing evangelization and have to wonder about those who are on a Catholic forum 7 days a week. Is there a belief that Catholics need to be evangelized? :rolleyes

When Christ spoke about being hated by all nations, He was specifically addressing the men He chose and appointed, who we know the majority were martyred. Too many interpretations ignore the audience that Christ spoke too, in my opinion.

There are many differences among congregations. I attribute that to people placing their understanding of scriptures over anyone else’s understanding. There are other factors, but private interpretation is the biggest divider.

I’m sure we can find many Churches claiming that all the people of that Church are of the same mind and judgment. The founding dates of those Churches leaves us to wonder about all the generations that did not have that same truth being espoused?

 

[Curious_Seed]

History does not say the Catholic Church began with Peter, the Catholic Church says it started with Peter.

Since the Church of Christ did begin with Peter, all Christian denominations, including the Catholic denomination, could claim Peter.

Protestantism and Catholicism are both founded on Peter - by Christ - because it was upon Peter that Christ founded His Church.

The first 1500 years of Catholic history is the first same 1500 years of Protestant history.

How?

Once, everyone in Science viewed the Sun as circling the Earth (first understanding); then most in Science viewed the Earth as circling the Sun (second understanding), though some in Science held to the first understanding. The history of the *second understanding *did not begin with that revelation however, the history of the *second understanding *began with, and has the same history, as the first understanding.

Once, everyone in Church had doctrines and dogmas (catholic understanding); then some in Church had other doctrines and dogmas (protestant understanding), though most in Church held to the catholic understanding. The history of the *protestant understanding *did not begin with that revelation however, the history of the *protestant understanding *began with, and has the same history, as the catholic understanding.

Correct, upon Peter, Christ started His Church – not the leader of His Church.

Correct, Jesus never named His Church, the Catholic Church.

Correct, the Holy Spirit does lead, for those willing to follow - all Christians, including Catholic Christians.

 

[joe370]

Hey Prodigal, if those many Churches with different doctrines did not exist when the CC, (which is the only Church that did exist early on) - existed, then they are not churches founded by Jesus Christ, but rather new churches founded by someone else, which brings us right back to post #1.

I agree with you: I too believe there was one Church, in many locations and that one church was the CC. Scriptures do not give examples of different doctrines being tolerated, much less taught, in different locations; just the opposite.

I believe the Catholic Church began with St. Peter. I also believe, by extension, the Church of Christ began with St. Peter, through the Catholic Church during, or after, the reformation which was hundreds of years later.

By the way, which Church of Christ are you talking about, the Pentecostal or LDS? I know there are a couple of variations of the Church of Christ, and those have wide divides in doctrines.

The differences I asked about was not for ridicule, but to ask for your explanation of how all those Churches remained one, with different doctrines, as scriptures tell us they should be one? Many Churches with different doctrines did not exist in the early Church. I believe there was one Church, in many locations. Scriptures do not give examples of different doctrines being tolerated, much less taught, in different locations.

 

[joe370]

Curious Seed;7650073]

History does not say the Catholic Church began with Peter, the Catholic Church says it started with Peter.

It began with Jesus which I thought was a given.

Since the Church of Christ did begin with Peter, all Christian denominations, including the Catholic denomination, could claim Peter.

I am fairly certain that all protestant churches deny that Jesus’ church was built on Peter. If the CC is just another denomination then how many denominations today, exist for the first 1000 years of Christianity?

Protestantism and Catholicism are both founded on Peter - by Christ - because it was upon Peter that Christ founded His Church.

So all protestants believe that Jesus’ church was built on Peter? They all believe that Jesus said: You are rock and on this rock I will build my church? I wish that was true.

The first 1500 years of Catholic history is the first same 1500 years of Protestant history.

How?

Once, everyone in Science viewed the Sun as circling the Earth (first understanding); then most in Science viewed the Earth as circling the Sun (second understanding), though some in Science held to the first understanding. The history of the *second understanding *did not begin with that revelation however, the history of the *second understanding *began with, and has the same history, as the first understanding.

The beginning of the reformation, and the first protestant churches: 16th century.

Once, everyone in Church had doctrines and dogmas (catholic understanding); then some in Church had other doctrines and dogmas (protestant understanding), though most in Church held to the catholic understanding. The history of the *protestant understanding *did not begin with that revelation however, the history of the *protestant understanding *began with, and has the same history, as the catholic understanding.

The myriad PC’s do not share the same history as the CC, but if you believe this to be true, that’s cool.

Correct, upon Peter, Christ started His Church – not the leader of His Church.

Agreed.

Correct, Jesus never named His Church, the Catholic Church.

Agreed.

Correct, the Holy Spirit does lead, for those willing to follow - all Christians, including Catholic Christians.

The HS guides each and every church, regardless of denomination, into all truth??? Okay. Perhaps we can get back to post #1?

 

[joe370]

CMatt25;7647746]Exactly. There have been differences since as you put it “day 1”.

The Holy Spirit would not be to blame. But man.

Agreed. The holy spirit will always guide Jesus’ church into all truth as per sacred scripture, regardless of the chaff mixed in with the wheat in Jesus’ church.

Someone can. They can go by what they believe in their heart. Following their conscience where according to CCC in its depths they are alone with God. Which per CCC they must obey so not to condemn themselves. Having the right to make moral decisions on religious matters without being forced to act contrary to their conscience. This of course all done after much prayer, study, informing, contemplation, and more prayer.

OK…

You want more specifics? O…K. You asked. But is specifics all you truly want or are you then going to debate them? Because I’m not going to debate faith and belief with you here.

If you would rather I not debate them, then I won’t.

Faith can not be proven with 100% absolute certainty or else it would not be called faith.

Agreed.

To begin with, for you or I to even get to the point of Christianity, first one must believe in a Creator. Then the NT story of Christ.

Agreed.

To get to your faith, one must then believe in Catholic Church interpretation of Herself, of Scripture, and of ECFs. A lot of faith steps going on along the way.

Agreed. Deference to church authority as commanded by Paul.

But here goes just some specifics for you…

I’m certain you are aware some believe Christ founded His Church on what Peter said regarding Christ being the Son of God. Not just on Peter. And that the Church is not the Catholic Church but the entire Body of Believers.

Yup; that was what I was taught by my Pastor, as a former non-Catholic.

Christ afterall did say to believe in Him for eternal life.

There are some who even if they believe Peter led and if they believe the Catholic Church was the original, believe the Catholic Church has strayed. I’m also certain you are aware of the abuses reformers took note of.

Yup.

And as you know some Protestants believe Augustine for instance was not speaking of a physical RP as your faith understands it to be. Some might believe in Jn 6 Christ was talking about believing in Him as the Son, in the Sacrifice on the cross He came down from heaven to make, and that He was speaking of His spirit giving life. A spiritual real presence. And those who walked did so because they were still hung up on the literal.

Some believe Jn 6:37 speaks open Communion.

Or they question other teaching.

Some might believe the Catholic Church became too legalistic.

There are many things in the Bible Christians do not take literally.

I am aware of all of this.

Some believers need everything spelled out for them and others understand human minds are finite.

On a personal note I don’t particularly strongly feel God in the territorial parish for Catholics in my neighborhood when I’ve attempted worship there. Because to me the decor or aura or feel of the parish is too extravagent. Marble. EMHC’s in robes. And most importantly the last homily I heard there the priest said some were complaining about this. But that people have no right to complain about expenditures on decor vs the poor because his answer to the poor was to get a job. I definitely did not feel God there at that moment and have not been back. Btw way some see the same extravagance in the Vatican. And thus no matter how much the Catholic Church gives to the poor, more could be given.

Sounds like you had a bad personal experience. Sorry to hear that. By the way, the CC does more charitable acts then any other church and they couldn’t do that if not for money, but I digress. Trying to stay on point.

As I believe though it was Dokimas who said, go where you sense the presence of God.

Some find too much emphasis on conservative political issues in today’s Catholic Church vs things Jesus actually talked about. Read Matt 25:36 - 47 for some of Christ’s ideas about what leads to eternal life. Read in Matthew about peacemakers being blessed.

Then of course more recently you have the child abuse cases and cover ups. Which brings into the play the whole idea of knowing false teachers by their fruits. And regardless of their ability to sin, if whether or not true Apostolic successors preaching the sanctity of life would not have known better than to cover up child molestation.

So far your focus has been on why I shouldn’t want to belong to the CC.

So many things cause folks to question. And one abuse or err alone can raise doubt in the hearts and minds and consciences of some as to the entirety of what the Church says. And they lose faith in the Catholic Church.

See post #1?

So you asked to be more specific and I hope this is specific enough for you and it helps in your understanding. Again I have no interest in debating others faiths and beliefs with you here. I am simply answering your question. God bless you on your faith walk and God bless all of His chidren as we walk His earth. And peace.

You seem to have no interest in post #1 either. I was hoping you would have simply answered my question instead of focusing on the negative aspects of the CC? Oh well…

 

[Rightlydivide]

I see a lot of people professing evangelization and have to wonder about those who are on a Catholic forum 7 days a week. Is there a belief that Catholics need to be evangelized?

When Christ spoke about being hated by all nations, He was specifically addressing the men He chose and appointed, who we know the majority were martyred. Too many interpretations ignore the audience that Christ spoke too, in my opinion.

There are many differences among congregations. I attribute that to people placing their understanding of scriptures over anyone else’s understanding. There are other factors, but private interpretation is the biggest divider.

I’m sure we can find many Churches claiming that all the people of that Church are of the same mind and judgment. The founding dates of those Churches leaves us to wonder about all the generations that did not have that same truth being espoused?

Well…since I do not hang out on these forums every day, anyone can look at my history and see months and weeks between posts, and none of my posts have ever attempted to evangelize Catholics…I will assume you are talking about someone else.
Oh…and it would be impolite to not answer Joe’s question since he often directs posts at us non-Catholics.

 

[Curious_Seed]

*It began with Jesus which I thought was a given *- joe370.

It is all about Jesus.

I am fairly certain that all protestant churches deny that Jesus’ church was built on Peter. If the CC is just another denomination then how many denominations today, exist for the first 1000 years of Christianity? - joe370

Vatican II is a product of the 1960s, rooted in what was before.

Luther was a product of the 1500s, rooted in what was before.

You are a product of your parents, rooted in what was before.

Quantum physics is a product of the 20th century, rooted in what was before.

You seem locked into thinking Protestantism is a product of the 16th century, rooted in nothing before.

Ok, what more can I say?

So all protestants believe that Jesus’ church was built on Peter? They all believe that Jesus said: You are rock and on this rock I will build my church? I wish that was true. - **joe370 **

The Church was built on Peter. The understanding and interpretation of Jesus’ proclamations to Peter differs among Protestants and Catholics. Protestants believe the Church is founded on what Peter said, not on who Peter is. Catholics believe the Church is founded on who Peter is, where succession from Peter is relevant.

The HS guides each and every church, regardless of denomination, into all truth??? -** joe370 **

Yes, even the Catholic denomination.

 

[joe370]

Curious Seed;7650384]*It began with Jesus which I thought was a given *- joe370.

It is all about Jesus.

Agreed.

Vatican II is a product of the 1960s, rooted in what was before.

Luther was a product of the 1500s, rooted in what was before.

You are a product of your parents, rooted in what was before.

Quantum physics is a product of the 20th century, rooted in what was before.

You seem locked into thinking Protestantism is a product of the 16th century, rooted in nothing before.

Ok, what more can I say?

Nothing.

The Church was built on Peter. The understanding and interpretation of Jesus’ proclamations to Peter differs among Protestants and Catholics. Protestants believe the Church is founded on what Peter said, not on who Peter is. Catholics believe the Church is founded on who Peter is, where succession from Peter is relevant.

Agreed.

I]The HS guides each and every church, regardless of denomination, into all truth

??? -** joe370 **

Yes, even the Catholic denomination.



So every church is guided into all truth. Got it. Perhaps we can get back to post #1?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

It began with Jesus whichThe Church was built on Peter. The understanding and interpretation of Jesus’ proclamations to Peter differs among Protestants and Catholics. Protestants believe the Church is founded on what Peter said, not on who Peter is. Catholics believe the Church is founded on who Peter is, where succession from Peter is relevant.

The HS guides each and every church, regardless of denomination, into all truth??? -** joe370 **

Yes, even the Catholic denomination.



Why does He lead Protestant denominations in different ‘truths’?

 

[CMatt25]

Agreed. The holy spirit will always guide Jesus’ church into all truth as per sacred scripture, regardless of the chaff mixed in with the wheat in Jesus’ church.

OK…

If you would rather I not debate them, then I won’t.

Agreed.

Agreed.

Agreed. Deference to church authority as commanded by Paul.

Yup; that was what I was taught by my Pastor, as a former non-Catholic.

Yup.

I am aware of all of this.

Sounds like you had a bad personal experience. Sorry to hear that. By the way, the CC does more charitable acts then any other church and they couldn’t do that if not for money, but I digress. Trying to stay on point.

So far your focus has been on why I shouldn’t want to belong to the CC.

See post #1?

You seem to have no interest in post #1 either. I was hoping you would have simply answered my question instead of focusing on the negative aspects of the CC? Oh well…

Sure I had an interest otherwise I would not have posted reasons why people do not belong to the Catholic Church or lose faith in Her. And LOL whether you like the answers or not these reasons DO give reasons why others belong to or attend another. And they are reasons why you could too if you were so inclined. So I’m not sure if you only wanted reasons or in actuality if you wanted to debate the reasons. But oh well appears you agree to alot anyway. God bless you on your walk.

 

[sundoulon]

A question for non-Catholics who don’t believe the Catholic church is the church founded by God: please give me a reason why I should belong to a non-Catholic church, regardless of denomination, and please, be specific; no generalities that move away from this simple question!

Please, don’t derail the thread…specificity is all I care about regarding this thread…

It would be considered ‘proselytizing’ here to give you any solid factual and Biblical reasons. This forum is completely incapable, by its very rules of engagement, of looking at those facts in the light of day. Any semblance of fact and truth is immediately quarantined and then dispatched quietly by subsequent ban, even as by the rules themselves to be ‘without notice’, and so what answer in verity could be given? - None [and this is how it is supposed to be under such rules].

Even if it was offered to take this conversation elsewhere, apart from this forum, it would still fall under the same rule.

This is the sad specifics.

 

[CMatt25]

It would be considered ‘proselytizing’ here to give you any solid factual and Biblical reasons. This forum is completely incapable, by its very rules of engagement, of looking at those facts in the light of day. Any semblance of fact and truth is immediately quarantined and then dispatched quietly by subsequent ban, even as by the rules themselves to be ‘without notice’, and so what answer in verity could be given? - None [and this is how it is supposed to be under such rules].

Even if it was offered to take this conversation elsewhere, apart from this forum, it would still fall under the same rule.

This is the sad specifics.

I wondered about this myself. A Catholic asked the question. But then would a non Catholic answering be banned?

 

[pinay]

A question for non-Catholics who don’t believe the Catholic church is the church founded by God: please give me a reason why I should belong to a non-Catholic church, regardless of denomination, and please, be specific; no generalities that move away from this simple question!

Please, don’t derail the thread…specificity is all I care about regarding this thread…

Okay… I’ll bite.

I have a hard time answering this question because it is contradictory in my case.

Yes, I am non-Catholic. Yes, I believe the Catholic church (or whatever it is called who was headed by the apostle Peter) is “founded” by God (I don’t like that word “founded” but that’s ok).

Reason… be specific. Hmm… okay.

• Because I believe that the Catholic Church, although a beautiful church that lives the gospel, does not contain the complete gospel. And that the complete gospel and priesthood authority was given to Joseph Smith who started a church that I belong in.

Of course you don’t have to believe any of that. I merely answered the question.

 

[joe370]

I was merely asking you to give me a reason(s) - if you do not believe that the CC was founded by God - why I should belong to a non-Catholic church in lieu of the CC. I was not asking you to try and convert me.

I have often wondered why some non-Catholics with staunch non-Catholic beliefs, spend so much time here at CAF? It does not appear that they are here to learn about the catholic faith, and I don’t believe they are here attempting to proselytize either; your thoughts friend?.

It would be considered ‘proselytizing’ here to give you any solid factual and Biblical reasons. This forum is completely incapable, by its very rules of engagement, of looking at those facts in the light of day. Any semblance of fact and truth is immediately quarantined and then dispatched quietly by subsequent ban, even as by the rules themselves to be ‘without notice’, and so what answer in verity could be given? - None [and this is how it is supposed to be under such rules].

Even if it was offered to take this conversation elsewhere, apart from this forum, it would still fall under the same rule.

This is the sad specifics.

 

[joe370]

Thanks for the feedback.

Okay… I’ll bite.

I have a hard time answering this question because it is contradictory in my case.

Yes, I am non-Catholic. Yes, I believe the Catholic church (or whatever it is called who was headed by the apostle Peter) is “founded” by God (I don’t like that word “founded” but that’s ok).

Reason… be specific. Hmm… okay.

• Because I believe that the Catholic Church, although a beautiful church that lives the gospel, does not contain the complete gospel. And that the complete gospel and priesthood authority was given to Joseph Smith who started a church that I belong in.

Of course you don’t have to believe any of that. I merely answered the question.

 

[joe370]

I wondered about this myself. A Catholic asked the question. But then would a non Catholic answering be banned?

Hi Matt. If you don’t mind me asking: It does not appear that you are here to learn about the catholic faith, (I could be wrong though and I apologize in advance if I am wrong) - and I don’t believe you are here attempting to proselytize either, so why do you visit CAF? By the way I am glad you are here.